Confirmed Trade: [STL/TOR] Toronto trades Dakota Joshua (rights) to St. Louis for future considerations.

DingDongCharlie

Registered User
Sep 12, 2010
11,362
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its a pretty nothing trade but why do teams actually take time to do those ?

As favours to the player. If a team knows they don’t want the player or won’t sign him in this case why not get the kid an opportunity with a club who maybe has a role within the organization that the trading team just can’t offer
 
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BatVader

"nothing is true; everything is permitted"
May 16, 2015
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I always want to know what future considerations actually turn out to be. Like does Armstrong have to buy Dubas a sliced bagel when Toronto comes to town next year?
Future considerations' can be named in the future, and often times we're not privy to what is explicitly spelled out in the trade paperwork.
For example; Kevin Poulin was traded from Tampa Bay to Calgary for future considerations. Hypothetically, let's say that the specific consideration was that in the 2016 Entry Draft, Tampa Bay would swap 5th round picks with Calgary if Calgary's pick was higher in the draft. If this ended up being the case, we'd hear about it, but if Tampa Bay already had the higher pick, we wouldn't necessarily find out that that was the 'consideration' because it was so minor, and ultimately not fulfilled.
It tends to be pretty minor stuff. In the old days you could trade players for cash (Quebec famously got a buttload of cash in the Lindros trade, along with their haul of players) and Kris Draper was infamously traded from Winnipeg to Detroit for $1. You can't do that anymore. What you also can't do is essentially loan a player, explicitly or implicitly.
For example: Arizona trades Phil Kessel to Chicago for future considerations. The legalese of that paperwork can't then be 'The consideration is that in June of next year, Chicago will trade Phil Kessel back to Arizona for a 7th Round Pick.' You can't put restrictions on a player being traded into the wording of 'future considerations.'
Its likely some teams just draw up completely insane conditional scenarios in order to facilitate a trade of a player for essentially nothing. IE: To use the Poulin example, Tampa Bay trades Poulin to Calgary for future considerations. The consideration being that if Calgary wins the cup the next 5 years running and Poulin posts a +.95SV% in each year and ties the single season win record, Tampa Bay receives a 7th. You know, something extremely unlikely, because you can't just give a player away, but the teams don't want to hassle with the possibility of a condition being satisfied (even for a 5th round pick.) Which may be why so many 'considerations' amount to nothing-- the ridiculous premises aren't satisfied.
 
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GoldenSeal

Believe In The Note
Dec 1, 2013
6,873
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I’m getting whiplash from how hard your opinion of Doug Armstrong has turned around :laugh:


But seriously, our AHL team was garbage last year. Seems like a pretty straight forward deal for some minor league depth to hopefully strengthen the AHL roster (or at least increase competition for spots). Not expecting much more than that.

Man got us a Cup, I'm a jerk but I give credit where it's due and Army's proven himself to be able to make the moves to get us all the way. Never been happier to be so wrong.
 

uncleben

Global Moderator
Dec 4, 2008
14,245
8,654
Acton, Ontario
Future considerations' can be named in the future, and often times we're not privy to what is explicitly spelled out in the trade paperwork.
For example; Kevin Poulin was traded from Tampa Bay to Calgary for future considerations. Hypothetically, let's say that the specific consideration was that in the 2016 Entry Draft, Tampa Bay would swap 5th round picks with Calgary if Calgary's pick was higher in the draft. If this ended up being the case, we'd hear about it, but if Tampa Bay already had the higher pick, we wouldn't necessarily find out that that was the 'consideration' because it was so minor, and ultimately not fulfilled.
It tends to be pretty minor stuff. In the old days you could trade players for cash (Quebec famously got a buttload of cash in the Lindros trade, along with their haul of players) and Kris Draper was infamously traded from Winnipeg to Detroit for $1. You can't do that anymore. What you also can't do is essentially loan a player, explicitly or implicitly.
For example: Arizona trades Phil Kessel to Chicago for future considerations. The legalese of that paperwork can't then be 'The consideration is that in June of next year, Chicago will trade Phil Kessel back to Arizona for a 7th Round Pick.' You can't put restrictions on a player being traded into the wording of 'future considerations.'
Its likely some teams just draw up completely insane conditional scenarios in order to facilitate a trade of a player for essentially nothing. IE: To use the Poulin example, Tampa Bay trades Poulin to Calgary for future considerations. The consideration being that if Calgary wins the cup the next 5 years running and Poulin posts a +.95SV% in each year and ties the single season win record, Tampa Bay receives a 7th. You know, something extremely unlikely, because you can't just give a player away, but the teams don't want to hassle with the possibility of a condition being satisfied (even for a 5th round pick.) Which may be why so many 'considerations' amount to nothing-- the ridiculous premises aren't satisfied.

I keep seeing this, that FCs can be swapping picks.
I can't think of a single precedent for that?
When was the last time we saw a team one-for-one swap a pick for a lesser one, explicitly in the name of resolving future considerations or not?

The most I can think of is when we see teams one-for-one swap picks, with a pick in this years draft, for one in the same round in next years draft. That happens a lot every year (it happened 7 times this past draft).

I went back and looked at all the transactions dating back to the end of the 2014 season to see if any teams that had done a one-for-one pick swap in that time had previously completed any FC trades with each other, where the considerations were not announced (with the theory being that this swap fulfilled a previous FC).

None of the 7 trades in the 2019 draft matched that criteria. Same for the trades at 2018, 2017, and 2016 Drafts.

(The closest being, June 23rd, 2018, Pittsburgh traded a 2018 7th to Vegas for a 2019 7th and on June 21, 2017, Pittsburgh traded a 2020 2nd to Vegas for future considerations BUT those considerations were revealed to be Vegas selecting Fleury in the Expansion Draft.)


If there was a trade such as that hypothetical Poulin trade, or any trade that would involve a pick no matter how unlikely the conditions, it would be processed as a conditional pick.

Look at the Jonathan Bernier trade as a precedent.
Toronto would have received a "second-round pick if the Ducks, or the team that Anaheim trades Bernier to, wins the Stanley Cup in 2017 and he starts in 50% of his team's playoff games. Toronto will receive a third-round pick if the Ducks or the team that Anaheim trades Bernier to loses the 2017 Stanley Cup Finals and he starts in 50% of his team's playoff games. If any of the conditions convert and Anaheim has already traded away the pick in question then the pick will defer to its next available selection in the same round. If none of the above conditions are met, Toronto will not receive a pick."

Those were pretty unlikely conditions at the time of the trade...


And please, if you can think of an example that goes against my understanding, or if you have found the proper rules please show me, cause I'd much rather be wrong but learn the truth, than be right in my post above. :laugh: It's impossible to find NHL By-Laws and transactions rules, out there. But as of right now, you're the fourth person to suggest FC can mean pick-swaps, and the only source I can find on that is other user posts on HF and reddit that say it, with no source.
 

Michel Beauchamp

Canadiens' fan since 1958
Mar 17, 2008
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Our AHL team was garbage last year. Seems like a pretty straight forward deal for some minor league depth to hopefully strengthen the AHL roster (or at least increase competition for spots). Not expecting much more than that.
The solution was to give him $325K and a spot on the 50-men roster rather than wait for August 15th and try to signehim to an AHL contract ?
 

Canada4Gold

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
42,997
9,190
Can't wait until our next deal with St. Louis where we include Past Considerations going to them to make us even.
 

stl76

No. 5 in your programs, No. 1 in your hearts
Jul 2, 2015
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The solution was to give him $325K and a spot on the 50-men roster rather than wait for August 15th and try to signehim to an AHL contract ?
If the org liked him enough as a player, then why not? Why risk losing a player they liked signing to another team, especially when all they gave up was $325K and they had room available on the 50-men roster?
 

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