Proposal: STL/NYI Mega Sales Pitch (Tavares, Pietrangelo)

[Oberyn]

Also, Tavares is a UFA after next season. Based on all the Shattenkirk threads on HF i think it's reasonable to say that this diminishes Tavares' value substantially.

 

[Beninnola]

What? Alex Pietrangelo is easily a top five NHL defenseman.

I would suggest the following are better overall, assuming we are measuring their positive impact on competition, not purely their defensive or offensive capabilities, given each of their abilities and teams are not the same.

Doughty
Burns
Karlsson
Weber
Suter
Ekman-Larsson
Kieth
Letang/Hedman/Ekblad


In fact the above list is how I would personally rank them in terms of "being the best".

I think Pietrangelo becomes comparable to guys like Vlasic, Subban, Josi, etc., in terms of his impact on the competition. Top 25 no doubt, but not quite top 10.

I only believe Crosby, McDavid, and Toews (due to intangibles) are better than Tavares and that Kopitar is right there.

 

[Beninnola]

Honest question when has a player with 1.5 years left on their contract before becoming a UFA pulled this sort of package in a trade?

Given STLs contracts and prospects, Tavares would be offered 10mil/8yr next season before first day.

The room exists to do this due to Pietrangelo heading to NYI and Shattenkirk doing Shattenkirk things. Berglund leaving leaves room for Parayko bridge.

 

[Rorschach]

Neutral fan here...

Why does St. Louis have to pay 500% value in that deal? Is Capuano the new GM of the Blues?

 

[Revelation]

It's not that bad, Blues take a huge step forward. I'd negotiate it to where they can keep Schwartz

Fabbri Tavares Tarasenko
Schwartz Stastny Yakupov
Perron Berglund Steen

Bouwmeester Shattenkirk
Leddy Parayko

Much better top 9 and top 4 absorbs loss of Pietrangelo just fine

 

[Havok89]

No from isles. I don't think people realize how good Leddy is

I don't think this season is convincing Tavares to re-sign with NYI.

 

[Beninnola]

Neutral fan here...

Why does St. Louis have to pay 500% value in that deal? Is Capuano the new GM of the Blues?

It's similar to buying a diamond. (Yes I know rigged commodity but so are NhL players due to salary cap)

The grade of the diamond greatly increases its price.

Tavares is the 4th or 5th best center in the league, in his prime, assumedly willing to sign for 8+ years at 10-10.5 AAV.

A 1 karat diamond with flaws may cost $800. A near perfect diamond of the same size could be $4000. In your hand they may look nearly identical. One is 5 x as expensive.

The Islanders will want something for their proven, upper echelon commodity. The Blues can offer that without completely destroying their franchise.

 

[simon IC]

It's not that bad, Blues take a huge step forward. I'd negotiate it to where they can keep Schwartz

Fabbri Tavares Tarasenko
Schwartz Stastny Yakupov
Perron Berglund Steen

Bouwmeester Shattenkirk
Leddy Parayko

Much better top 9 and top 4 absorbs loss of Pietrangelo just fine

Wow. Sorry, I respectfully but vehemently disagree with your assessment there.

 

[JackFr]

Why not

Tavares

for

Schwartz
Parayko

 

[Beninnola]

Wow. Sorry, I respectfully but vehemently disagree with your assessment there.

Top 4 absolutely hurt right now.

But all I hear and read is how STL is stacked on D prospects.

All you would need is one to develop into NHL ready within 2 years, top 4 within 3 years.

Is much less expensive method of acquiring top #1C. Alternatives include tanking, being in last place, and hoping the draft isn't a complete bust when you're down there, the waiting years to develop talent, hope that it pans out.

 

[Beninnola]

Why not

Tavares

for

Schwartz
Parayko

Because the assumed absence of Shattenkirk (and thus ability to sign Tavares next year instead of his FA year) plus the loss of Parayko would leave the Blues without any right handed defenseman capable of 20 minutes per game. Edit: I sincerely believe JBo is over extended in his current role)

 

[Bouboumaster]

Tavares Leddy hold more value than Pie and Schwartz but the difference between the pair isn't 2 prospects and 2 first round draft picks.

 

[Evocable Manager]

Because the assumed absence of Shattenkirk (and thus ability to sign Tavares next year instead of his FA year) plus the loss of Parayko would leave the Blues without any right handed defenseman capable of 20 minutes per game. Edit: I sincerely believe JBo is over extended in his current role)

You do realize that losing both Petro and Shattenkirk completely destroys our defense. Even with Leddy being added.
Who plays RD on our 2nd pair?
Schmaltz is a rookie, who probably shouldn't be pencilled for a 2nd pair job. Bortuzzo/Edmundson/Lindbohm aren't RD and and aren't good enough for 2nd pair duties.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Because the assumed absence of Shattenkirk (and thus ability to sign Tavares next year instead of his FA year) plus the loss of Parayko would leave the Blues without any right handed defenseman capable of 20 minutes per game. Edit: I sincerely believe JBo is over extended in his current role)

You realize we'd still have Pietrangelo in that scenario, right?

Would still be a bad decision though.

 

[Beninnola]

You do realize that losing both Petro and Shattenkirk completely destroys our defense. Even with Leddy being added.
Who plays RD on our 2nd pair?
Schmaltz is a rookie, who probably shouldn't be pencilled for a 2nd pair job. Bortuzzo/Edmundson/Lindbohm aren't RD and and aren't good enough for 2nd pair duties.

Yes.

Leddy Parayko
Edmundson JBo
Gunnarson Bortuzzo
Hunt, Schmaltz depth

Much worse compared to today. Huge issue. Luckily teams greatest strength in prospects is Defenseman. Will probably have to add journeyman at deadline for mid grade prospect. Need to get the train of young defenseman moving over 2+ years.

Cost of #1C.

 

[iamjs]

I would suggest the following are better overall, assuming we are measuring their positive impact on competition, not purely their defensive or offensive capabilities, given each of their abilities and teams are not the same.

Doughty
Burns
Karlsson
Weber
Suter
Ekman-Larsson
Kieth
Letang/Hedman/Ekblad


In fact the above list is how I would personally rank them in terms of "being the best".

You think Suter is a top 5? He's not even in my top 10.

 

[Chubbinz]

Given STLs contracts and prospects, Tavares would be offered 10mil/8yr next season before first day.

The room exists to do this due to Pietrangelo heading to NYI and Shattenkirk doing Shattenkirk things. Berglund leaving leaves room for Parayko bridge.

I didn't ask about contracts, I asked about when was the last time a player with 1.5 years until UFA got anywhere near this insane proposal via trade.

 

[Spazkat]

Tavares Leddy hold more value than Pie and Schwartz but the difference between the pair isn't 2 prospects and 2 first round draft picks.

That. Regardless of how highly you value him, 1.5 years of JT and the contract uncertainty involved with that does not get you that package.

 

[xECK29x]

No from isles. I don't think people realize how good Leddy is

Sorry SI, we take this and run

 

[The Grouch]

I would suggest the following are better overall, assuming we are measuring their positive impact on competition, not purely their defensive or offensive capabilities, given each of their abilities and teams are not the same.

Doughty
Burns
Karlsson
Weber
Suter
Ekman-Larsson
Kieth
Letang/Hedman/Ekblad


In fact the above list is how I would personally rank them in terms of "being the best".

I think Pietrangelo becomes comparable to guys like Vlasic, Subban, Josi, etc., in terms of his impact on the competition. Top 25 no doubt, but not quite top 10.

I only believe Crosby, McDavid, and Toews (due to intangibles) are better than Tavares and that Kopitar is right there.

If you truly believe that, then Kevin Shattenkirk is pretty similar in value to Pietrangelo. In fact, if we use your point share argument from post #19, Shattenkirk is better than Pietrangelo...

Shattenkirk - 8.5
Pietrangelo - 7.9

So as a Blues fan I'll go ahead and give you the better defenseman... You can have Shattenkirk in a deal for Tavares and the Blues will be forced to keep their smelly old "top 25" defenseman in the form of Alex Pietrangelo.

 

[EastonBlues22]

Possibly the worst proposal I've ever seen involving the Blues on this site, and I've had to look through more than a few Malkin to the Blues proposals over the years.

 

[Beninnola]

I didn't ask about contracts, I asked about when was the last time a player with 1.5 years until UFA got anywhere near this insane proposal via trade.

Nobody trades a guy like Tavares. You just don't do it.

It's exceptionally rare that a team has a player of this caliber and also is near last place on the league.

So to say "when is the last time something like this happened" is probably answered with "never".

You don't trade Anze Kopitar or Jonathan Toews. They put your teams name on a cup.

Unfortunately, losing Kyle Okposo for nothing, having Andrew Ladd show up a boat anchor on day 1, and a handful of other issues put this team in that ugly position like Vancouver has been in for the better part of a decade: not bad enough to rebuild properly, not good enough to truest contend for a cup. This past offseason was really rough for them unfortunately. The Isles need a trade partner who will give them a boost - a real chance at substantial rapid rebuild with quality talent. I do believe the Blues can do this and not destroy themselves in the process.

 

[Rorschach]

It's similar to buying a diamond. (Yes I know rigged commodity but so are NhL players due to salary cap)

The grade of the diamond greatly increases its price.

Tavares is the 4th or 5th best center in the league, in his prime, assumedly willing to sign for 8+ years at 10-10.5 AAV.

A 1 karat diamond with flaws may cost $800. A near perfect diamond of the same size could be $4000. In your hand they may look nearly identical. One is 5 x as expensive.

The Islanders will want something for their proven, upper echelon commodity. The Blues can offer that without completely destroying their franchise.

Pietrangelo is the equivalent of Tavares as a defenseman and he's signed. He's the diamond in this deal. Tavares as a pending UFA is not.

 

[Beninnola]

If you truly believe that, then Kevin Shattenkirk is pretty similar in value to Pietrangelo. In fact, if we use your point share argument from post #19, Shattenkirk is better than Pietrangelo...

Shattenkirk - 8.5
Pietrangelo - 7.9

So as a Blues fan I'll go ahead and give you the better defenseman... You can have Shattenkirk in a deal for Tavares and the Blues will be forced to keep their smelly old "top 25" defenseman in the form of Alex Pietrangelo.

While I enjoy using Point Shares to compare offensive and defensive players in a simplified method, in this use case provided the flaw of Point Shares is glaring.

Dig into Pietrangelo and Shattenkirks advanced stats:

Pietrangelo is over 50% D zone starts.
Shattenkirk is almost 60% O zone starts.

Exactly half of the goals and over 66% of Shattenkirks assist over the past 3 seasons are Power Play points.

Despite playing almost 4 less minutes per game on average, Shattenkirk averages nearly double the penalty minutes of Alex Pietrangelo.

Point Shares becomes iffy once a player is exceptional at one task and the coach uses him exclusively for that task. Shattenkirk is a petulant defender (taking stupid stick fouls once beaten) and is used primarily for his power play and offensive gifts.

Because of this, I would never say that Shattenkirk is better than Pietrangelo. Shattenkirk is able to have a higher point share because Alex Pietrangelo is capable of doing the dirty work. Shattenkirk will never succeed on a team that cannot carry his deficiencies. He is severely overrated because he is so amazingly 1 dimensional. In fact, I believe the Blues will be better off once he does move on as the offensive talent and 2-way play by guys like Alexander Steen will not let the Power Play devolve into trash.

 

[TorontoTrades]

when I read the title I thought no way Islander make a deal around Tavares and Pietro given NYI's solid D-core and lack of upfront talent. Then I read the OP and reconsidered. This is a ridiculous amount of pieces.