Confirmed Trade: [STL/BUF] Ryan O'Reilly for 2019 1st, 2021 2nd, Patrik Berglund, Vladimir Sobotka, and Tage Thompson

[Mattilaus]

I wasn't posting garbage but fact. I'm not sure why many are bitter over this deal you got three picks and two roster players

Sorry? I am confused how anything in my post has anything to do with bitterness or not. Your claim in your post (which are are now saying is a fact) is that Buffalo fans think that ROR is a head case/locker room problem now that he has been traded. I told you this is untrue (ie. garbage) and indicated it is very easy to check this by perusing the Buffalo forums where it is clear we do not think that as a consensus.


Would you like to have a conversation regarding your claim or just deflect and say I am bitter instead? Also, why would I be bitter if I had though we got rid of a "head case/locker room cancer"? That must be what I think right because you said it is a fact Buffalo fans think this.

 

[Mattilaus]

Buffalo fans were sure Thomas, Kyrou, or Parayko would be a part of any deal. None of those pieces were moved. I think that's where the narrative comes from.

Exactly, so how is this evidence that there is a consensus among Buffalo fans that ROR is a locker room cancer/head case if we thought and still think we should have gotten more for him?

 

[57special]

So, BUF decided to trade ROR for bottom six depth? D'okay.

 

[Pi]

Yep. Most Sabs fans liked ROR and dislike the trade not only because they feel they didn't get enough in return but also because they didn't see any reason to ship ROR away.
However, the Phaneuf comparison up above may have some validity. I just think/hope it doesn't. I know from media comments that several Blues players are happy to see him in St. Louis. We'll see how it turns out.

Phaneuf was nothing but a pro in his time with the Leafs. It's not really his fault he was mislabeled as a #1D when he was a really good #2 or #3.

 

[Dbrownss]

Exactly, so how is this evidence that there is a consensus among Buffalo fans that ROR is a locker room cancer/head case if we thought and still think we should have gotten more for him?

 

[Buf fan in Nash]

Buffalo should've done what Colorado did with Duchene last year and been more patient. Keep ROR for the start of the season then trade him when the right offer comes along. We should've been able to get a similar return that Colorado did.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

So when will St. Louis acquire Matt Duchene to complete the trifecta?

 

[Colt55]

Sorry? I am confused how anything in my post has anything to do with bitterness or not. Your claim in your post (which are are now saying is a fact) is that Buffalo fans think that ROR is a head case/locker room problem now that he has been traded. I told you this is untrue (ie. garbage) and indicated it is very easy to check this by perusing the Buffalo forums where it is clear we do not think that as a consensus.


Would you like to have a conversation regarding your claim or just deflect and say I am bitter instead? Also, why would I be bitter if I had though we got rid of a "head case/locker room cancer"? That must be what I think right because you said it is a fact Buffalo fans think this.

You can claim it's not true all you want but saber fans have claimed that on this site and in fact in this o.o. go ahead do some research

 

[TheKingPin]

I used popcorn in reference to the comment about Flyers thinking Schenn was that bad - he never takes a shift off, hits, puts up points etc. Has a solid play style...sure he wont be Crosby by any means, but most teams would enjoy have a player of his calibre on the roster.

As for Frost and Farabee - the verdict is out on them as they have yet to play a game in the NHL - so it will be interesting to see how they perform. Until we can see those players in the NHL we will be hard pressed to determine who won or lost. But for fans to think Schenn is a bad player (which was the original insinuation, would be far from the truth as well).

Maybe you misunderstood what most flyer fans were saying. I don’t think anyone was saying he’s bad. Like Lehtera is bad, shouldn’t be in the NHL. Schenn is bad relative to his draft and post draft status. He was as big as it gets at the time of the Richards deal. But he’s not a bad player overall. I think everyone on the flyers board would have assumed 50 pts from him no matter where he went. Playing with such good players would boost or strengthen that. A lot of the terms you used for him we saw. But we saw in the playoffs or big games etc. Not in an entire year. That’s why I am curious to see how he does this year. A little less motivation and opportunity.

I’ll start by saying if Schenn is a consistent 70pt player on that contract then the blues did well as that is hard to get. If the blues win a cup with schenn then it’s a win. In the end of course we have to see what Frost and Farabee do for an on the paper analysis. Similar to the return that the flyers for for Richards and Kind of for carter that lead to the cup wins. So far Frost looks like the real deal and is a home run prospect. Just depends on how he continues and develops. He’s a very good player that did not peak at his draft year.

 

[Mike Liut]

Well luck for the blues he won't be the second best player on the team

1)petro
2)tarasenko
3)Schwartz
4)schenn
5)parayko
6)ROR
7)EDMUNDSON
Ect

It’s ETC

 

[Mike Liut]

Maybe you misunderstood what most flyer fans were saying. I don’t think anyone was saying he’s bad. Like Lehtera is bad, shouldn’t be in the NHL. Schenn is bad relative to his draft and post draft status. He was as big as it gets at the time of the Richards deal. But he’s not a bad player overall. I think everyone on the flyers board would have assumed 50 pts from him no matter where he went. Playing with such good players would boost or strengthen that. A lot of the terms you used for him we saw. But we saw in the playoffs or big games etc. Not in an entire year. That’s why I am curious to see how he does this year. A little less motivation and opportunity.

I’ll start by saying if Schenn is a consistent 70pt player on that contract then the blues did well as that is hard to get. If the blues win a cup with schenn then it’s a win. In the end of course we have to see what Frost and Farabee do for an on the paper analysis. Similar to the return that the flyers for for Richards and Kind of for carter that lead to the cup wins. So far Frost looks like the real deal and is a home run prospect. Just depends on how he continues and develops. He’s a very good player that did not peak at his draft year.

If he and Schwartz play 82 games together, Schenn will never score less than 60 points. Depending on who they put on RW, he will score 70+ again. I’m imagining Kyrou on that line. If so, wow, that has the potential to be deadly.

 

[Colt55]

It’s ETC

Damn auto correct lol

Nah that was legit me

 

[Sasso09]

I believe he's been quoted as saying he was most comfortable when playing at center, but Philly used him on the wing for the most part. He also has really good chemistry with Schwartz. I'd say his success in St. Louis is a combination of those two factors and maybe sprinkle a bit of change of scenery on top.

He was tried at center many times, it just didn't work out, he was much more effective at wing in Philly

 

[Sasso09]

Clearly, you need to read the post that it was in response to, as someone indicated that Philly fans claimed Schenn was not a good player.....hence the popcorn statement. Take a deep breath, it will be OK. Again in my previous comment it will be hard to determine who came out ahead until the aforementioned prospects play games in the NHL.

I don't remember anyone calling schenn a bad player. He's always been a top 6 forward who brought it every shift

 

[DRW204]

Did Rick Nash get a better return than this, considering he was a TDL rental deal? Lindgren, Spooner, 1st (STLs might be around the same spot) and a minor cap dump

 

[BleedBlue14]

Did Rick Nash get a better return than this, considering he was a TDL rental deal? Lindgren, Spooner, 1st (STLs might be around the same spot) and a minor cap dump

I mean not really. They got two 3rd line players as well as a pretty good prospect. Buffalo can’t seem to fill out their bottom 6 with NHL caliber players

 

[stl76]

If he and Schwartz play 82 games together, Schenn will never score less than 60 points. Depending on who they put on RW, he will score 70+ again. I’m imagining Kyrou on that line. If so, wow, that has the potential to be deadly.

I agree with you that as long as Schenn is on a line w/ Schwartz he is close to a lock for 60 points. Their chemistry is legit, and those two have proven they can generate offense with just anyone playing on their RW.

However, I think whether or not Schenn hits 70 again will come down to playing time and usage more so than who plays RW on their line. Schenn's point totals were inflated a bit by having such a large role last season. His line was our only scoring line and Brayden basically played an entire 2 minutes more than his historical average...that extra 2 minutes per game in TOI was a huge reason for his increase in scoring.

IMO the question for Schenn is really how much will TOI decrease with the addition of ROR, and if it does will his usage/deployment (offensive zone starts, PP time, etc) make up for the decrease in TOI.

 

[Dbrownss]

I agree with you that as long as Schenn is on a line w/ Schwartz he is close to a lock for 60 points. Their chemistry is legit, and those two have proven they can generate offense with just anyone playing on their RW.

However, I think whether or not Schenn hits 70 again will come down to playing time and usage more so than who plays RW on their line. Schenn's point totals were inflated a bit by having such a large role last season. His line was our only scoring line and Brayden basically played an entire 2 minutes more than his historical average...that extra 2 minutes per game in TOI was a huge reason for his increase in scoring.

IMO the question for Schenn is really how much will TOI decrease with the addition of ROR, and if it does will his usage/deployment (offensive zone starts, PP time, etc) make up for the decrease in TOI.

Why would it change? Blues still had Stastny, and ROR will take his place.

 

[rumrokh]

I agree with you that as long as Schenn is on a line w/ Schwartz he is close to a lock for 60 points. Their chemistry is legit, and those two have proven they can generate offense with just anyone playing on their RW.

However, I think whether or not Schenn hits 70 again will come down to playing time and usage more so than who plays RW on their line. Schenn's point totals were inflated a bit by having such a large role last season. His line was our only scoring line and Brayden basically played an entire 2 minutes more than his historical average...that extra 2 minutes per game in TOI was a huge reason for his increase in scoring.

IMO the question for Schenn is really how much will TOI decrease with the addition of ROR, and if it does will his usage/deployment (offensive zone starts, PP time, etc) make up for the decrease in TOI.

How does going from 14 to 16 minutes per game of even-strength ice time explain an increase from 27 to 51 points? 14% increase in ice time means a 53% increase in productivity? Can you give me an example of that for another established player?

 

[Starat327]

I believe he's been quoted as saying he was most comfortable when playing at center, but Philly used him on the wing for the most part. He also has really good chemistry with Schwartz. I'd say his success in St. Louis is a combination of those two factors and maybe sprinkle a bit of change of scenery on top.

He did say he feels most comfortable at center. However, in his time here, he was not a competent center. Part of it might have been not being able to have good players to play with, but he mostly just looked lost when playing there. No idea on where he should be on the ice, etc. His best run of form came when he was playing on Couturier's right wing.

I think you'll find some of us were frustrated by his inconsistency while he was here, but I'd be hard pressed to believe anyone thought he was a 'bad player'. He was a likable guy who seemingly always gave whatever he could whenever he was on the ice, and you cant ask for too much more than that. That being said, i'd still make that trade all over again, much like I assume the blues would. Flyers were entering a different stage of their teams development and Frost and Farabee are likely much better fits for this team over the next few years. Similarly, the Blues are pretty stacked with good forward prospects and a relatively young blueline, so the two firsts likely wont be missed.

 

[BleedBlue14]

He did say he feels most comfortable at center. However, in his time here, he was not a competent center. Part of it might have been not being able to have good players to play with, but he mostly just looked lost when playing there. No idea on where he should be on the ice, etc. His best run of form came when he was playing on Couturier's right wing.

I think you'll find some of us were frustrated by his inconsistency while he was here, but I'd be hard pressed to believe anyone thought he was a 'bad player'. He was a likable guy who seemingly always gave whatever he could whenever he was on the ice, and you cant ask for too much more than that. That being said, i'd still make that trade all over again, much like I assume the blues would. Flyers were entering a different stage of their teams development and Frost and Farabee are likely much better fits for this team over the next few years. Similarly, the Blues are pretty stacked with good forward prospects and a relatively young blueline, so the two firsts likely wont be missed.

What firsts? We're playing with house money baby

Honestly with Schenn I thought we were in for a loooong season when he picked the puck up and tossed it as a frag down the other end of the ice in the first game of the season. He really became a competent center as the season progressed though, could certainly use some work in the faceoff circle though. That should be mased now thought by the addition of Bozak/Thomas/ROR who are all pretty good faceoff men. Something we haven't had in a while.

 

[bleedblue1223]

How does going from 14 to 16 minutes per game of even-strength ice time explain an increase from 27 to 51 points? 14% increase in ice time means a 53% increase in productivity? Can you give me an example of that for another established player?

His last Philly season was an outlier in production in terms of 5v5 goal-scoring, he was usually higher. His points/60 last season was pretty close to what it was in 15/16.

Moving forward he'll probably be a 65ish type player IMO. Sometimes closer to 60, and sometimes closer to 70.

 

[rumrokh]

His last Philly season was an outlier in production in terms of 5v5 goal-scoring, he was usually higher. His points/60 last season was pretty close to what it was in 15/16.

Moving forward he'll probably be a 65ish type player IMO. Sometimes closer to 60, and sometimes closer to 70.

Right. So it's not really due to an increase in ice time, it's because variation like that happens and his production didn't really even change that much. 60 points in 15-16, 70 points in 17-18. A lot of people have convinced themselves there's a massive difference there, but that's way truer of, say, 25 to 35 than it is for 60 to 70. This perception that Schenn graduates to being a first line center if he hits 70 again, but he's a 2nd liner forever if he's closer to 60 again is absurd.

 

[stl76]

Why would it change? Blues still had Stastny, and ROR will take his place.

ROR is more than just a Stastny replacement IMO. The last 3 years, ROR averaged 21:44, 21:28, and 20:49 minutes per game. The last 3 years Stastny averaged 18:18, 18:41, 17:02 minutes per game. I would be surprised if ROR suddenly went from consistently averaging 21+ minutes per game to around 18.

For the record, Schenn's average TOI the last three years was 16:45, 17:48, 19:44.

How does going from 14 to 16 minutes per game of even-strength ice time explain an increase from 27 to 51 points? 14% increase in ice time means a 53% increase in productivity? Can you give me an example of that for another established player?

Well, for one thing, part of Schenn's fantastic year was his undeniable chemistry with Schwartz. Those two were electric, especially at even strength, and I don't mean to discount that impact.

However, I'm not just looking at even strength scoring. Looking at the raw totals, Schenn's scoring increased 27% from 55 to 70 and his ice time increased 11%. Some of that 27% increase in scoring was from Schwartz, but I think a significant part of it was also from an increase in TOI.

To put it another way, check out Schenn's P/60 stats from the last two seasons:

	p/60	ESP/60	aTOI
2017-18	2.597	2.336	19:44
2016-17	2.345	1.460	17:48

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Two things stand out to me, the large (60%) increase in even strength P/60, and the fact that all situations P/60 only increased around 11%. That 11% increase (possibly from chemistry w/ Schwartz, easy usage, etc) was not the single reason that Schenn's scoring increasing 27%. Part of that increase in scoring, and I would argue a significant part, also came from the 11% increase in TOI.

 

[Starat327]

What firsts? We're playing with house money baby

Honestly with Schenn I thought we were in for a loooong season when he picked the puck up and tossed it as a frag down the other end of the ice in the first game of the season. He really became a competent center as the season progressed though, could certainly use some work in the faceoff circle though. That should be mased now thought by the addition of Bozak/Thomas/ROR who are all pretty good faceoff men. Something we haven't had in a while.

Well, those firsts had to come from somewhere..and if St louis was in a better playoff spot, gotta think they keep Stastny. But now were going down Hypothetical river, and thats an exercise in futility.

I'm happy that Schenn is working out for the Blues. Like i said, super likable guy. He was just not in a position to succeed here. He got extended looks at center, but couldnt make it work (having matt read and wayne simmonds as your wingers probably doenst help), and he had abysmal chemistry with G and Voracek when we tried him at LW on that line. Maybe if we had shifted Giroux to LW and put Schenn at C things might have been different, but im not overly confident in that either.

Blues fans are happy, Flyers fans are happy. Lets cheers and drink a beer