TSN: STL Blues eyeballing Howard

ChrisReevesLegs

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Yeah and? My whole post was predicated on the fact that the Blues do something stupid. I’m far beyond giving a damn what fan bases ask for a guy. I said “if they’re actually willing to give up Kyoru or Thomas, I do it tomorrow. If they’re not, I want to keep Howard”. If you went by fanbase demands, Toronto would be beating off several offers of legit #1Dmen for William Nylander and Taylor Hall wouldn’t have gone for Adam Larsson. If STL is desperate and looking, I’m not going to say no to talking to them.

It’s not even that I expect a blow the doors off type return. That’s what it would take for me to wholesale jump behind dealing him.

I really like Howard. But I’m also pragmatic. If a desperate ass team comes calling I’m sure answering that call.

That being said, I agree Howard is probably going nowhere.

Yeah and what?

As much as I do not like the Blues, they're not stupid and neither is their fan base. Dreger looks like the dumb one in all this, and along with him anyone who's giving this suggestion of his an ounce of credence.
 

Ezekial

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He said Detroit would be looking for that type of value, not that it was a definite thing.

Detroit would be looking for that type of value, he's playing well, the organization likes him, and goalie isn't exactly a position of organizational strength.

Most (reasonable) people will agree that we shouldn't sell Howard unless the price is right. Anyone saying SELL HIM FOR ANYTHING!!!!! Is the type of fan that thinks we should trade all veterans on our team for 7th rounders call up half of GR, call half of Toledo to GR, and sign people off the street for Toledo.
 

Winger98

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Getting something significant from the Blues really comes down to how desperate the Blues are to win with their current core. I don't see anyone on that team in their early 20s that I think is great, it's not like their best days are ahead of them. At the same time, J-Bo could walk this summer. Pietrangelo could walk in two summers, something I think is more likely if the Blues don't at least go on a deep run or two in the playoffs before then.

The Blues might reach on someone because their team is slipping from competitiveness and they probably need to make a run in the very near future or start looking at trying to re-stock the cupboards a bit.
 

ChrisReevesLegs

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He said Detroit would be looking for that type of value, not that it was a definite thing.

Detroit would be looking for that type of value, he's playing well and the organization likes him and goalie isn't exactly a position of organizational strength.

Most (reasonable) people will agree that we shouldn't sell Howard unless the price is right. Anyone saying SELL HIM FOR ANYTHING!!!!! Is the type of fan that thinks we should trade all veterans on our team for 7th rounders call up half of GR, call half of Toledo to GR, and sign people off the street for Toledo.

Well no crap it's not a definite thing, it's a rumor...

Your point about Detroit liking him and goal not being an organizational strength is exactly why Howard won't be traded. Detroit will want something nice for him. No team is going to give something nice for him --> Howard won't be traded.
 

jkutswings

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Well no crap it's not a definite thing, it's a rumor...

Your point about Detroit liking him and goal not being an organizational strength is exactly why Howard won't be traded. Detroit will want something nice for him. No team is going to give something nice for him --> Howard won't be traded.
Follow me on this.

The most likely scenario is that Howard stays here at least until the trade deadline.
Regardless of how unlikely it might be to find a really good return for an aging goaltender with a track record of injuries...it hurts absolutely nothing to keep the phone lines open.

It's possible to remain grounded in the (miniscule) likelihood of said deal, without shouting down anybody who says it's still worth mentioning.
 

Ezekial

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Well no crap it's not a definite thing, it's a rumor...

Your point about Detroit liking him and goal not being an organizational strength is exactly why Howard won't be traded. Detroit will want something nice for him. No team is going to give something nice for him --> Howard won't be traded.
Yea, I know. I agree..

But apparently multiple teams are interested, so maybe there is something of value offered.


Edit: did you stop reading my post after the first line or something?
 

waltdetroit

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Then the question is, what is the amount of draft picks a team can hold before they retain negative value?
Does holding say 15 picks lower their value based off things such as the 50 man contract limit?

Trading up is a fantastic option. The Wings have so much depth but we lack the higher tier talent. We could trade up and hope to hit on higher picks, or do we hoard them and hope to hit on more selections?
I think that if you have many draft picks, you then sign only the better prospects down the line and let others go. As for trading up, I don't see teams giving up a 1st rounder unless they get a lower 1st rounder + back, and even then, the 1st is not so high . You probably can move up into the 2nd-3rd rounds by giving multiple lower picks. (just a generalization)
 

ChrisReevesLegs

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Follow me on this.

The most likely scenario is that Howard stays here at least until the trade deadline.
Regardless of how unlikely it might be to find a really good return for an aging goaltender with a track record of injuries...it hurts absolutely nothing to keep the phone lines open.

It's possible to remain grounded in the (miniscule) likelihood of said deal, without shouting down anybody who says it's still worth mentioning.

Who's shouting?
 

Ezekial

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Getting something significant from the Blues really comes down to how desperate the Blues are to win with their current core. I don't see anyone on that team in their early 20s that I think is great, it's not like their best days are ahead of them. At the same time, J-Bo could walk this summer. Pietrangelo could walk in two summers, something I think is more likely if the Blues don't at least go on a deep run or two in the playoffs before then.

The Blues might reach on someone because their team is slipping from competitiveness and they probably need to make a run in the very near future or start looking at trying to re-stock the cupboards a bit.
That's why it makes sense though. All of their best players are in the 25-28 range, and they have some real good players in that range; Vladdy, Parayko, Pietrangelo, Shenn, Schwartz, O'Reilly. Dunn is a solid young player - Rob Thom and Kyrou - not exactly game breakers but they have a couple of them in the "prime aged" group.
I just don't think Howard moves the needle all that much. They made OS moves to be close to paper West champs and they are failing. They feel they need to do something.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Yeah and what?

As much as I do not like the Blues, they're not stupid and neither is their fan base. Dreger looks like the dumb one in all this, and along with him anyone who's giving this suggestion of his an ounce of credence.

I am saying I wouldn't trade Howard outside of something crazy happening. I'm not expecting Kyrou or Thomas. I wouldn't have said Kyrou or Thomas if Dreger didn't drop it.

Since the Blues probably aren't stupid, they're not offering what Dreger is saying.

However, you're completely wrong. The Blues fanbase is stupid. Our fanbase is stupid. ALL fans are stupid. Or at the very least are ignorant of what management is thinking. Hell, if you think the Wings were stupid to sign Stephen Weiss to his 5x4.9 contract, then you think the Blues are stupid too, because they were right there with an open checkbook as well.

And while Kyrou/Thomas is a pipedream that won't happen... you don't know the desperation of the Blues or any other team. Maybe they think they're a playoff team if they move on from Jake Allen? Maybe Carolina is looking at Howard and another goalie but they really like Howard and they see that St. Louis is flirting with trading for him. You lose nothing by listening and displaying an openness to dealing him.
 

SimonEdvinssonAtSix

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I really don't think we are going to get the kind of return ya'll seem to be expecting for Howard... For that reason I think it's 100 times more likely the Wings will air on the side of stability and re-sign Howard and push forward.

This is a fair assessment. But with the reports on STL coupled with rumblings from CAR ( however minuscule ) it opens up dialogue on possibilitys. In a static environment Howard holds little value. Hockey is a dynamic environment though and because of that we can see lesser valued pieces moved for higher assets. In the case of Howard I think a 2nd rounder would be a higher asset and would pull the trigger. Holland may not view it that way and hold on to him.

Either way the Wings are in a strong position on the matter. We can just keep Howard for a stabilizing element in net for the kids; If we decide to trade him were doing so from strength and can ask for the moon. A team desperate enough for a starter may make the decision to go for it. In that case we would potentially receive the kind of return you believe unfathomable.
 
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ChrisReevesLegs

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I am saying I wouldn't trade Howard outside of something crazy happening. I'm not expecting Kyrou or Thomas. I wouldn't have said Kyrou or Thomas if Dreger didn't drop it.

Since the Blues probably aren't stupid, they're not offering what Dreger is saying.

However, you're completely wrong. The Blues fanbase is stupid. Our fanbase is stupid. ALL fans are stupid. Or at the very least are ignorant of what management is thinking. Hell, if you think the Wings were stupid to sign Stephen Weiss to his 5x4.9 contract, then you think the Blues are stupid too, because they were right there with an open checkbook as well.

And while Kyrou/Thomas is a pipedream that won't happen... you don't know the desperation of the Blues or any other team. Maybe they think they're a playoff team if they move on from Jake Allen? Maybe Carolina is looking at Howard and another goalie but they really like Howard and they see that St. Louis is flirting with trading for him. You lose nothing by listening and displaying an openness to dealing him.

When the reaction of the Blues fanbase is HECK NAH, and the reaction of the Wings fanbase is HECK YES... that's a pretty good indication that it's a crappy trade suggestion.

So your saying I'm stupid?

Your last paragraph is just baseless speculation. I don't know their desperation? Sure. You also don't know their security.

BTW I don't think the Wings were stupid to sign Stephen Weiss.
 

Nut Upstrom

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Cool, I hope he's heard something from a credible source in the StLB's management. If you can get a significant piece from one of those three teams (StL, Pit, Cgy) who were expected to be in the playoffs then do it. If not, don't do it. Nothing wrong with discussing it.

Yeah and what?

As much as I do not like the Blues, they're not stupid and neither is their fan base. Dreger looks like the dumb one in all this, and along with him anyone who's giving this suggestion of his an ounce of credence.

So, it will never happen. Dreger is dumb for mentioning it. We're dumb for discussing it.
Thanks, you've contributed so much of value to this discussion.
 

Winger98

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That's why it makes sense though. All of their best players are in the 25-28 range, and they have some real good players in that range; Vladdy, Parayko, Pietrangelo, Shenn, Schwartz, O'Reilly. Dunn is a solid young player - Rob Thom and Kyrou - not exactly game breakers but they have a couple of them in the "prime aged" group.
I just don't think Howard moves the needle all that much. They made OS moves to be close to paper West champs and they are failing. They feel they need to do something.

But you're also hitting on the reason why the blues won't make such a move. Howard's not exactly Roy, and the Blues are dead last in their division. They're more likely to be sellers.
 

ChrisReevesLegs

Registered User
Nov 5, 2018
328
198
Seattle
This is a fair assessment. But with the reports on STL coupled with rumblings from CAR ( however minuscule ) it opens up dialogue on possibilitys. In a static environment Howard holds little value. Hockey is a dynamic environment though and because of that we can see lesser valued pieces moved for higher assets. In the case of Howard I think a 2nd rounder would be a higher asset and would pull the trigger. Holland may not view it that way and hold on to him.

Either way the Wings are in a strong position on the matter. We can just keep Howard for a stabilizing element in net for the kids; If we decide to trade him were doing so from strength and can ask for the moon. A team desperate enough for a starter may make the decision to go for it. In that case we would potentially receive the kind of return you believe unfathomable.

Agree with you here. If we can pull a high 2nd rounder for Howard I definitely start to listen. He's definitely a stabilizing element for us right now though, which I am reluctant to give up...
 

Ezekial

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But you're also hitting on the reason why the blues won't make such a move. Howard's not exactly Roy, and the Blues are dead last in their division. They're more likely to be sellers.
But with their situation they don't want to sell after being buyers 4 months ago. They might think Howard does make them a better team. They certainly have a better D group and forward group than us maybe they see Howie as a consistent .930 goalie with a better team in front of him. What matters is the Blues' opinion of what he does to their team.

Admitting your window closed before it ever really opened is a tough task for a GM trying to keep his job.
 

ChrisReevesLegs

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Nov 5, 2018
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Cool, I hope he's heard something from a credible source in the StLB's management. If you can get a significant piece from one of those three teams (StL, Pit, Cgy) who were expected to be in the playoffs then do it. If not, don't do it. Nothing wrong with discussing it.



So, it will never happen. Dreger is dumb for mentioning it. We're dumb for discussing it.
Thanks, you've contributed so much of value to this discussion.

Have any other straw men for the board?

Assessing the validity of a rumor is reasonable discussion. If you disagree, boy do I have some wild rumors to feed you.
 

SimonEdvinssonAtSix

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Nov 2, 2018
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Would trading Howard for conditional picks be a logical route to take?

Howard for a 4th round pick, becomes 2nd round if team makes the playoffs, becomes 1st if team wins the cup?
 

Nut Upstrom

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But you're also hitting on the reason why the blues won't make such a move. Howard's not exactly Roy, and the Blues are dead last in their division. They're more likely to be sellers.

The Blues have no right being dead last in anything, they have a very good team who made the mistake of putting all of their eggs in that Jake Allen goal tending basket. Their fans should be pissed off and demanding a goalie upgrade. Obviously they will not and should not give up a future star or possibly even a first rounder, but there are deals that can be made to get a goalie upgrade (not necessarily Howard) that should work for the Blues and their trade partners and both respective fan bases.
Maybe those fans have been eating mediocrity for too many years to demand a goalie upgrade, but the Blues should be fighting Colorado and Minnesota for 2nd place in that division, not dwelling in the basement.
 

Winger98

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But with their situation they don't want to sell after being buyers 4 months ago. They might think Howard does make them a better team. They certainly have a better D group and forward group than us maybe they see Howie as a consistent .930 goalie with a better team in front of him. What matters is the Blues' opinion of what he does to their team.

Admitting your window closed before it ever really opened is a tough task for a GM trying to keep his job.

Howard might make them a better team, but enough to jump four teams ahead of them just to get third in their division? Odds are against them in any case, and I think 3rd is the best they can hope for as I don't think Nashville is going to slow down and I wouldn't be surprised to see Winnipeg pick it up. In all likelihood, their season is essentially over other than determining their lottery position.

The Blues have no right being dead last in anything, they have a very good team who made the mistake of putting all of their eggs in that Jake Allen goal tending basket. Their fans should be pissed off and demanding a goalie upgrade. Obviously they will not and should not give up a future star or possibly even a first rounder, but there are deals that can be made to get a goalie upgrade (not necessarily Howard) that should work for the Blues and their trade partners and both respective fan bases.
Maybe those fans have been eating mediocrity for too many years to demand a goalie upgrade, but the Blues should be fighting Colorado and Minnesota for 2nd place in that division, not dwelling in the basement.

Bu they are dead last, and they are aging, and I don't think there's a chance they climb too far out of that basement. They might not finish the year dead last in the division, but make the playoffs? I just don't see it.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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When the reaction of the Blues fanbase is HECK NAH, and the reaction of the Wings fanbase is HECK YES... that's a pretty good indication that it's a crappy trade suggestion.

So your saying I'm stupid?

Your last paragraph is just baseless speculation. I don't know their desperation? Sure. You also don't know their security.

BTW I don't think the Wings were stupid to sign Stephen Weiss.

Yes. I am saying you are stupid. I am saying I am stupid. I am saying Frk It is stupid. When it comes to running a team and knowing how pieces will all fit together, we are stupid. Pretty universally, the Golden Knights were like "ah, they might be okay at best, but almost definitely cellar dwellers" last year. And they happened to be a series away from a Cup.

And frankly, on here, ANY trade involving a well-known player who hasn't SUPER BUSTED is going to be a HELL NAW from the team giving him up and a HELL YES from the team acquiring him.

Almost to a man, people thought that Vanek was worth a 1st rounder in 2016. Everything pointed to it. He got traded for a 3rd and McIlrath.

Everyone said Kindl was untradeable garbage. He was dealt for a 6th. Everyone said Brendan Smith was untradeable garbage. He was dealt for a 2nd and a 3rd.

Everyone thought we would trade through the ****ing nose to get rid of Pavel Datsyuk's contract. We ended up dropping four spots and taking a guy who looks to be tracking towards being a better player than Chychrun AND got a 2nd that we used for Hronek who acquitted himself quite well in his cup of coffee early in the year.

So yes, I think pretty much all fans in terms of player development, movement, and general managings of a team... are stupid.

Crappy trade suggestion or not, if St. Louis is sniffing around, I let them make me an offer. I don't have to trade Howard for peanuts if I don't want to. But if they think getting Howard can save their season, they might cough up more than is justified.
 

ShelbyZ

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Apr 8, 2015
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Yeah and what?

As much as I do not like the Blues, they're not stupid and neither is their fan base. Dreger looks like the dumb one in all this, and along with him anyone who's giving this suggestion of his an ounce of credence.

I disagree on the part about the Blues being stupid... Keeping Allen, and letting Hutton walk and replacing him by overpaying one of the worst goalies from last season, was extremely stupid. So was not making a head coaching change over the summer.

I can see where Dreger is going though...

The Blues only option this season is to try to re-enforce the huge investment they made up front bringing in ROR, Perron and Bozak for multiple years (and Maroon for one) this past summer.

They canned Yeo, so goaltending is probably where they can make the best improvement.
 
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Ezekial

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Howard might make them a better team, but enough to jump four teams ahead of them just to get third in their division? Odds are against them in any case, and I think 3rd is the best they can hope for as I don't think Nashville is going to slow down and I wouldn't be surprised to see Winnipeg pick it up. In all likelihood, their season is essentially over other than determining their lottery position.

It's a lot easier for you to say that than Doug Armstrong, who would essentially be saying since he took over 10 years ago he was unable to build a true contender and now he has to start over.

E: he was hired knowing he would become gm
 

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