State of the Devils Thread (Long Questionnaire)

TBF1972

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It boggles the mind how anyone can see the state of this team and think that Ray did a good job. I can maybe buy into being neutral and waiting longer term to weigh how his draft picks turn out. But I'm sorry, giving him a definitive positive grade right now because he was essentially gifted two #1 overalls and made a few "good" trades for what turned out to be temporary players is horse shit. The two #1's are not even sure things to meet the expectations of that pick...and we have people on here touting them as our near-certain future superstars. It just comes across as delusional blind faith, and I'm not down with that. We better hope they turn out that way, because there is limited evidence that we have the necessary pieces in place at virtually every single other position.
It boggles the mind how anyone can simply judge Shero's work by looking at the standings and then down play the year his team made the playoffs.
 

None Shall Pass

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It's funny. Look at the 2016 - 2018 drafts. 2019 is too recent, and who knows who ran 2015.

Shero and Co. made 26 picks. Of those 26 picks, eight have played an NHL game. Of those eight: Two (Nico and Bratt) are full time players. Two more are likely to be in the next year (Boqvist and Anderson). Jury is out on McLeod, Bastian, Gignac, and Senn, but at worst all are capable AHL players and NHL callups.

Two more of those picks were traded and are on course to be NHL players (Rykov and Davies).

So that's 10 solid picks.

You look at that list of 26 players, the only real flameout is Popugaev, and that's being a little generous with the term flameout. The rest of the picks (15 total) are playing in good leagues (OHL, NCAA, International leagues).
 
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JimEIV

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It's funny. Look at the 2016 - 2018 drafts. 2019 is too recent, and who knows who ran 2015.

Shero and Co. made 26 picks. Of those 26 picks, eight have played an NHL game. Of those eight: Two (Nico and Bratt) are full time players. Two more are likely to be in the next year (Boqvist and Anderson). Jury is out on McLeod, Bastian, Gignac, and Senn, but at worst all are capable AHL players and NHL callups.

Two more of those picks were traded and are on course to be NHL players (Rykov and Davies).

So that's 10 solid picks.

You look at that list of 26 players, the only real flameout is Popugaev, and that's being a little generous with the term flameout. The rest of the picks (15 total) are playing in good leagues (OHL, NCAA, International leagues).
This is just overly optimistic with nothing behind it. Playing games in the NHL is no measurement. From 2009 to 2011 we had 18 picks and 10 played in the NHL within a few years of being drafted...that is a significantly better ratio than the 10 out of 26 today. It means nothing at all. Absolutely nothing.

To be satisfied with two full time players, one being a #1 overall out of 26 picks and higher picks than our organization has typically ever had is spin for the sake of being optimistic about a super shitty draft record.

9 picks in the top 100 in 2016 and 2017 including a #1 overall, #11 overall and two more picks in the top 50... not a single player has come out of those picks except for the #1 overall. That is atrocious no matter how much spin you put on it.
 
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Spoiled Bratt

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To be satisfied with two full time players, one being a #1 overall out of 26 picks and higher picks than our organization has typically ever had is spin for the sake of being optimistic about a super shitty draft record.

9 picks in the top 100 in 2016 and 2017 including a #1 overall, #11 overall and two more picks in the top 50... not a single player has come out of those picks except for the #1 overall. That is atrocious no matter how much spin you put on it.

Your comments are made with little to know research or knowledge. It’s easy to downplay picks that were made 2 or 3 years ago but the real question is how many prospects from those same drafts are making the impact you would expect out of the kids we drafted, in those same rounds?

By the way, we had to add multiple picks to restock our pipeline that was none dry when Shero took over. As much good as he did for two decades, Lou completely dismantled this franchise from the lockout until he got canned.

Same gimmick with a different username.
 

None Shall Pass

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9 picks in the top 100 in 2016 and 2017 including a #1 overall, #11 overall and two more picks in the top 50... not a single player has come out of those picks except for the #1 overall. That is atrocious no matter how much spin you put on it.

Nine picks in the top 100 in 2016 and 2017:
McLeod: Likely to be an NHL player. Probably not the impact you'd want from 12th (Not 11th).
Bastian: Probably a 4th liner in the NHL.
Anderson: Will be full-time in the NHL next season. 2nd line upside. RW, which we need.
Gignac: Not looking good.
Nico: Nico.
Boqvist: Will be full-time in the NHL next season. 2nd line upside.
Zetterlund: Just completed first North American season. Had injury problems.
Walsh: High upside. Went the NCAA route, and will be returning to NCAA this coming season. Is NHL ready according to everyone.
Popugaev: Probably a wash.

So one guy playing regularly on our top line, two guys who will almost definitely be playing regularly next year with decent upside, two guys who may get some NHL games next year, one guy who would be playing if he didn't go back to college, one guy still developing, and two guys who likely don't amount to much.

I'm not saying it's great, but it's far from atrocious. The McLeod whiff is the one that stings, but sometimes you whiff on 1st rounders.
 
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glenwo2

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Your comments are made with little to know research or knowledge. It’s easy to downplay picks that were made 2 or 3 years ago but the real question is how many prospects from those same drafts are making the impact you would expect out of the kids we drafted, in those same rounds?

By the way, we had to add multiple picks to restock our pipeline that was none dry when Shero took over. As much good as he did for two decades, Lou completely dismantled this franchise from the lockout until he got canned.

Same gimmick with a different username.


I don't know why you reply to him since he himself has stated under no uncertain terms that there is nothing good about this team. NOTHING. :dunno:

I would just let him have his opinion (no matter how wrong it is) and just move on.
 

glenwo2

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Nine picks in the top 100 in 2016 and 2017:
McLeod: Likely to be an NHL player. Probably not the impact you'd want from 12th (Not 11th).
Bastian: Probably a 4th liner in the NHL.
Anderson: Will be full-time in the NHL next season. 2nd line upside. RW, which we need.
Gignac: Not looking good.
Nico: Nico.
Boqvist: Will be full-time in the NHL next season. 2nd line upside.
Zetterlund: Just completed first North American season. Had injury problems.
Walsh: High upside. Went the NCAA route, and will be returning to NCAA this coming season. Is NHL ready according to everyone.
Popugaev: Probably a wash.

So one guy playing regularly on our top line, two guys who will almost definitely be playing regularly next year with decent upside, two guys who may get some NHL games next year, one guy who would be playing if he didn't go back to college, one guy still developing, and two guys who likely don't amount to much.

I'm not saying it's great, but it's far from atrocious. The McLeod whiff is the one that stings, but sometimes you whiff on 1st rounders.

Yeah but the Bratt pick in that same draft evens it out, imo.
 

MadDevil

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Top 100 picks doesn't really mean much when you consider that after about the top 20 or so the chances of a player playing 200 games drops under 50% and that by the time you get to pick 100 the chances are like 15%.
 

JimEIV

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Nine picks in the top 100 in 2016 and 2017:
McLeod: Likely to be an NHL player. Probably not the impact you'd want from 12th (Not 11th).
Bastian: Probably a 4th liner in the NHL.
Anderson: Will be full-time in the NHL next season. 2nd line upside. RW, which we need.
Gignac: Not looking good.
Nico: Nico.
Boqvist: Will be full-time in the NHL next season. 2nd line upside.
Zetterlund: Just completed first North American season. Had injury problems.
Walsh: High upside. Went the NCAA route, and will be returning to NCAA this coming season. Is NHL ready according to everyone.
Popugaev: Probably a wash.

So one guy playing regularly on our top line, two guys who will almost definitely be playing regularly next year with decent upside, two guys who may get some NHL games next year, one guy who would be playing if he didn't go back to college, one guy still developing, and two guys who likely don't amount to much.

I'm not saying it's great, but it's far from atrocious. The McLeod whiff is the one that stings, but sometimes you whiff on 1st rounders.
I just don't see your optimism...McLeod hasn't remotely shown that he's capable of being an NHL player, not even a 4th liner. Bastian showed some promise during garbage time last season but he has not progressed at all this season and the couple of times I have seen him live in the AHL he's been invisible, didn't use his size at all...I do think some of that is playing with McLeod who seems to have no structure or purpose when he's on the ice. He skates around pointlessly regularly in a similar fashion to what Tedenby used to do... it can only be described as clueless.

I think Anderson has potential. In fact he is the only near ready prospect that I think has a shot...I think the Pro performances we have seen from every other prospect have been crap to mediocre with little to be encouraged by... Anderson is the sole exception in my opinion. 34 points in 44 games is more along the lines of what I would expect from a forward with potential in the AHL.

Zutterlund has a very good shot from what I have seen from him but his game needs a lot of improvement, maybe more improvement than reasonably possible, but it was his first year and I am willing to wait see there.

Boqvist reminded a lot of Josefson for a lot of reasons. Mostly the offensive awareness seems lacking. His scoring did pick up later in Binghamton but Josefson's did too in the AHL.

Walsh in a group of extremely overhyped prospects is without a doubt the most overhyped of them all. Small, suspect at D, and a sluggish skater...the number of high scoring NCAA Dmen that absolutely have no hope of ever being NHL players is astronomical...it's like 80/90's NCAA option quarterbacks with gawdy numbers that have a more likely shot at a career in the NBA or MLB. Or playing Defense like Scott Frost. Small Dmen that can't skate or play D should never be on the "optimistic list" no matter how many points they put up in college. For every Rafalski there are 30 David Warsofsky's. I have been watching that playout for nearly 30 years of watching NCAA hockey...I think Davies was a much better prospect (Davies is a much better skater and defender) and I think Davies has low percentage chance of becoming an effective NHLer... I think Walsh has a lot of limitations to overcome.

Most of the prospects at the Pro level have been abysmal...these 2016 and 2017 are 3 and 4 years from there draft year now and making little impact in the AHL. Yes I have paid attention to the strong run Binghamton went on...but I would say it really had more to do with the additions of veteran AHLers than any of our prospects.
 

None Shall Pass

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I think a good coach will do wonders for McLeod. He needs to play a more structured game, for sure. I'd agree that, so far, he's been underwhelming, but I'm pretty sure he can be a tenacious 3rd line guy at his peak. Again, not what you want out of a 12th overall, but not a total loss.

Boqvist has a shot that Josefson can only dream about having. In fact, outside of the nationality, I think comparing him to Josefson is wrong. If you want to compare him to failed Devils prospects, I lean more towards Reid Boucher, except he can actually skate and actually hold on to a puck. I'm bullish on Boqvist. Given a good center, I think he'll put up some points. I don't think that will show for another few years, though.
 
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glenwo2

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I think a good coach will do wonders for McLeod. He needs to play a more structured game, for sure. I'd agree that, so far, he's been underwhelming, but I'm pretty sure he can be a tenacious 3rd line guy at his peak. Again, not what you want out of a 12th overall, but not a total loss.

Boqvist has a shot that Josefson can only dream about having. In fact, outside of the nationality, I think comparing him to Josefson is wrong. If you want to compare him to failed Devils prospects, I lean more towards Reid Boucher, except he can actually skate and actually hold on to a puck. I'm bullish on Boqvist. Given a good center, I think he'll put up some points. I don't think that will show for another few years, though.

I think we can all agree that from where Mcleod was drafted, he is a bust.

HOWEVER, we can also agree that he is an NHL player.

He did not look out-of-place the last time we saw him.

I feel he can be a solid contributor to this team yet.
 
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guitarguyvic

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Lol this is the same hyping up of draft picks who haven’t proven anything that we saw with the likes of Tedenby, Josefson, Bergfors, Gelinas, et al when they were still prospects.

“It takes time for these prospects to develop, you can’t judge them yet”.

“Ray has done a great job because look at our prospects”...that we can’t yet judge because it’s too early?

I must be taking crazy pills because these two statements are complete contradictions. Bending yourselves into pretzels to take the most optimistic outlook possible while insisting Ray was something more than a pedestrian GM at best.
 
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JrFischer54

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Lol this is the same hyping up of draft picks who haven’t proven anything that we saw with the likes of Tedenby, Josefson, Bergfors, Gelinas, et al when they were still prospects.

“It takes time for these prospects to develop, you can’t judge them yet”.

“Ray has done a great job because look at our prospects”...that we can’t yet judge because it’s too early?

I must be taking crazy pills because these two statements are complete contradictions. Bending yourselves into pretzels to take the most optimistic outlook possible while insisting Ray was something more than a pedestrian GM at best.

you are taking crazy pills just take a look at any draft last 4 years and tell me how many kids from rounds 3 and down are playing for any team minimum 20 games. Hint it ain’t many. So I guess ray isn’t the only bum gm out there.
 
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JrFischer54

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I think we can all agree that from where Mcleod was drafted, he is a bust.

HOWEVER, we can also agree that he is an NHL player.

He did not look out-of-place the last time we saw him.

I feel he can be a solid contributor to this team yet.

Question if mike is a bust at 11 then does that mean Zacha is a bust at 6?

also bonus point for ray is that he traded back to take mike. With that extra pick he used it on Joey Anderson.
 
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guitarguyvic

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you are taking crazy pills just take a look at any draft last 4 years and tell me how many kids from rounds 3 and down are playing for any team minimum 20 games. Hint it ain’t many. So I guess ray isn’t the only bum gm out there.
So all of a sudden we can’t judge how prospects are doing until they get to the NHL? Hmmm ok sure sure.

Also if that’s the standard then how do you know as of right now that Ray has done a good job?
 

My3Sons

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Boquist had a very good season in Sweden before arriving if I recall correctly. ANDERSON was very good in college. Especially after he returned from captaining the WJC team. Talvite was trending in the right direction and showing he belonged at every level he played from WJC to NCAA before injuries and family issues stalled his development. That’s a shame. I thought he was trending as a potential NHL third line player but now we will have to see if he can get back on track. Some of the Bingo observers really liked Senn the second half of the year. Smith’s junior resume is stellar. It’s hard to criticize his selection as a mid first round pick.

I really think that one of the issues facing the Devils in the draft during Shero’s tenure is that they’ve only had one first round pick each season. It’s harder to find legit NHL players below the first round. I leave it to others to decide why the team hasn’t added extra first rounders and moved several high seconds for veteran players.

Shero made a number of mistakes in hindsight but at least he didn’t bog down the cap. The next GM will walk into a farm team moving in the right direction and some depth of young players even if a number remain question marks. And cap space. And a team that was not terrible with MBW in the net. There are worse teams going forward in my view. At least NJ has accepted its craptitude as shown by canning the GM and coach after coasting with them. Hopefully this upcoming season - assuming it happens - will allow the team to show some progress.
 

glenwo2

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Question if mike is a bust at 11 then does that mean Zacha is a bust at 6?

also bonus point for ray is that he traded back to take mike. With that extra pick he used it on Joey Anderson.

Hmmmm...

Very interesting point there, Jr. :nod:


As I said, though, that from where both were drafted (and the expectations they had at that spot), they were busts.

But they still turned out to be NHL players (Zacha now and Mcleod just recently).

And I forgot that Ray traded back to take Mike and with the extra pick, got Joey-A.
 

MadDevil

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Actually, he got Anderson with the third rounder we got for moving back the previous draft from #36 to #42. The third we got for dropping back for McLeod ended up being Gignac. So really the trade at the 2015 draft ended up being Blackwood + Anderson to drop back 6 spots, which is pretty good.
 
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JimEIV

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Question if mike is a bust at 11 then does that mean Zacha is a bust at 6?

also bonus point for ray is that he traded back to take mike. With that extra pick he used it on Joey Anderson.

Are you serious? D+4 McLeod has played 33 games and had 5 assist and a lackluster AHL career.

Zacha D+4. He played 201 NHL games and had 76 points.

In actual age Zacha is 10 months older than McLeod. .Are you really comparing the two at any level? Zacha is a superstar compared to McLeod...Zacha's two points in his first game is more than McLeod has achieved in 3 years as a pro.

On trading back for the extra pick...I"d take McAvoy or Chychrun over McLeod and Anderson any day of the week and so would any sane being...and don't tell me it was hindsight. You can go look at the draft day threads...the run on forwards before our picked screamed for Dman to be selected and many said it at the very moment of our pick.
 

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Are you serious? D+4 McLeod has played 33 games and had 5 assist and a lackluster AHL career.

Zacha D+4. He played 201 NHL games and had 76 points.

In actual age Zacha is 10 months older than McLeod. .Are you really comparing the two at any level? Zacha is a superstar compared to McLeod...Zacha's two points in his first game is more than McLeod has achieved in 3 years as a pro.

On trading back for the extra pick...I"d take McAvoy or Chychrun over McLeod and Anderson any day of the week and so would any sane being...and don't tell me it was hindsight. You can go look at the draft day threads...the run on forwards before our picked screamed for Dman to be selected and many said it at the very moment of our pick.

They could have had one of McAvoy or Chychrun and gotten the extra pick to move back. At the time it seemed Chycrun was more highly regarded in the media if I recall.
 

JrFischer54

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Are you serious? D+4 McLeod has played 33 games and had 5 assist and a lackluster AHL career.

Zacha D+4. He played 201 NHL games and had 76 points.

In actual age Zacha is 10 months older than McLeod. .Are you really comparing the two at any level? Zacha is a superstar compared to McLeod...Zacha's two points in his first game is more than McLeod has achieved in 3 years as a pro.

On trading back for the extra pick...I"d take McAvoy or Chychrun over McLeod and Anderson any day of the week and so would any sane being...and don't tell me it was hindsight. You can go look at the draft day threads...the run on forwards before our picked screamed for Dman to be selected and many said it at the very moment of our pick.

the only reason Zacha got those games played was because the team had no talent and he shouldn’t even have been in the nhl his first year. I’ll reserve judgement on mike until he’s played a full season I have a feeling they will end up the same level which is a 3rd line player. Zacha at 6 is absolutely the bigger bust then mike at 11. It doesn’t sound like much but 6 and 11 is a massive difference in talent level in some drafts. Also look at the talent left on the board in Zacha draft compared to mikes there is no doubt the 6 pick busted harder.
 

None Shall Pass

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I really think that one of the issues facing the Devils in the draft during Shero’s tenure is that they’ve only had one first round pick each season. It’s harder to find legit NHL players below the first round. I leave it to others to decide why the team hasn’t added extra first rounders and moved several high seconds for veteran players.

This is a very good, and hopefully not forgotten, point. This is the first year post-Lou that we could have more than one 1st round pick.
 

JimEIV

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the only reason Zacha got those games played was because the team had no talent and he shouldn’t even have been in the nhl his first year. I’ll reserve judgement on mike until he’s played a full season I have a feeling they will end up the same level which is a 3rd line player. Zacha at 6 is absolutely the bigger bust then mike at 11. It doesn’t sound like much but 6 and 11 is a massive difference in talent level in some drafts. Also look at the talent left on the board in Zacha draft compared to mikes there is no doubt the 6 pick busted harder.
So let's keep with this logic for a while...a full time NHLer with 4 full seasons under his belt with 108 points in 266 games, 32 points in 64 games this season... is a bust because he was a #6 overall?
Ok...

Now Nico a #1 overall had 4 more points this season than the #6 bust...so is Nico the worst bust of them all? Again keeping with the logic...a #6 overall is a harder bust than a #11 overall non-NHL player because #6 is a huge difference than #11...#1 to #6 is a bigger difference than #6 to #11...Nico must be the biggest bust we have? Or does the 4 points make the difference?

I'm sure you can see the nonsense in this...Zacha is not a bust. Not in anyway is he a bust...
Disappointing sure, but he's a regular NHL player with very good attributes. McLeod isn't even a good AHL player.

Reserve judgement until a full season? He hasn't played a full season because he is not good and his window is quickly closing. Next season is last year of his ELC and he's nowhere close to being a regular NHL player.
 

JimEIV

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And the notion that Zacha got opportunity because we had nothing else is ridiculous. Every first rounder gets early opportunity. McLeod did also... McLeod was in the lineup by November of his first year pro and got 21 total games that year while absolutely sucking in the AHL...sucking so much that he was being scratched in the AHL yet still got a callup in November.

McLeod actually is the one who has gotten opportunity he didn't deserve.

Article from October 13 2018 talking about McLeod being scratched for being terrible.. but he still manages to get in the big teams lineup a month later without doing much of anything.

New Jersey Devils: Mike McLeod Faces Important Challenge
 
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BurntToast

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I love the late picks by the Devils scouting staff but early picks are still in question. Yes, Nico and Hughes have both underwhelmed. I love Nico but until he makes the leap he is the 4/5 best player in his draft and fading. Hughes has amazing potential, I hope he wasn’t rushed to the NHL. Jury is out on Smith but McLeod is struggling. I wouldn’t be upset if they keep or let go the current scouting staff. With Shero gone it will be interesting to see if anything gets tweeked.

With the offseason likely shortened, I think Fitz and Castron will stay. Also, Fitz getting the “OK” to search for coaches is a good sign for him. I don’t care for retreads but Gallant is probably the best of them. I would want Palms as the captain if he resigns but Nico would ok. I rather not give him additional pressure until he reaches his potential.
 

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