State of the Devils Thread (Long Questionnaire)

[JrFischer54]

Again, we’ve had five years going on seven to ‘stock the cabinet’, any competent GM should be able to do what Shero did with two lotto wins, five years of not really caring about results plus another two or three on the horizon because we’re now in rebuild 2.0. All of Shero's best moves (Hall, Vat, Palm) he's had to cash out on other than Palm, and for all we know he might have been willing to cash him out too.

Rebuilds are an easy concept to sell but they only work if you can develop the younger players and keep what you have. People are just glossing over the fact we’re already in rebuild 2.0 because they’ve talked themselves into believing Lou was so awful we need ten years on a rebuild and somehow Hall, Vat and Palm were just all bridge guys who’re all likely going to be better than anyone Shero drafted that isn’t a #1 OA.

He wasn't trading for Hall, Palm, Vat and MarJo with the idea of flipping them again, they were supposed to be the vet components as the kids developed. Instead he had to cash out of all of them, which was an utter failure on the rebuild and that's been glossed over here.

You realize you only get 7 picks a year more if your lucky and sometimes less. When you look at impact after the first and second round it’s pretty much 5% and less of playing in the nhl. So yeah you need to slow down with the “he’s had 5 -7 years to restock. Definitely a fail

 

[JrFischer54]

He's had 4 years, I don't count being named the GM in early May and having Conte run the 2015 draft as a part of Shero's portfolio of work. Zacha was a Conte pick, so was Blackwood. And he had very little to sell of when he took over. Look at the Rangers and how fast they were able to retool (though a still a work in progress of course). We didn't have a McDonagh, a Hayes, a Stepan, a Raanta, etc. We had Gelinas, Matteau, Fiddler, Kalinin, Wedgewood. And the decent players we did trade we got back strong returns with Larsson and Henrique.

This isn't being a Shero apologist or anything, I don't care. These are just the facts. I get being frustrated it's taken so long but this is what happens when he had to take over a team with an aging group with not many attractive pieces to trade away, or many draft impact draft picks coming in from prior years. "yeah but Severson, Wood, Coleman!" I f***ing get it, but again it took time for those guys to break in - time that we're all of sudden not giving Shero's picks? Why, out of frustration? Yes. McLeod wasn't a good pick. Bratt was. Maybe a few other 2016 picks can turn into something but it's still really early when looking at 2017 and beyond picks. "Yeah but even our 1st overall picks aren't doing much!" Is it Shero's fault he won the lottery in years where the reward wasn't McDavid or Matthews?

Realistically the turning point for this team was the Schneider trade. We had a great pick and could've taken a impact player like Horvat, instead we got an elite goalie at the time that single-handily dragged shitty teams to not so shitty finishes in years when a top pick could've catapulted this team into the different direction in McDavid and Matthews. And then when the team's complexion started to change for the better, Schneider turned into a potato.

Shero's biggest downfall was not getting rid of Hynes early enough. I think it was the same thing in Pittsburgh, and it happened here too. He was too loyal. He learned but he learned too late. Now we have an opportunity to get a real coach like Gallant or Boudreau or Lavy.

you are absolutely right with that cory trade setting this franchise back. Then again with Lou and conte doing the drafting I really doubt we would’ve had much success from those draft spots that cory kept from us anyway.

top 10 pick for a goalie lol so amazingly stupid

 

[Cheddabombs]

you are absolutely right with that cory trade setting this franchise back. Then again with Lou and conte doing the drafting I really doubt we would’ve had much success from those draft spots that cory kept from us anyway.

top 10 pick for a goalie lol so amazingly stupid

I don't think trading a top 10 pick is stupid. I think trading a top 10 pick for a goalie in his late 20's to join a bad and aging team that obviously needs to rebuild is stupid. Schneider's timeline and our team's timeline didn't match-up well at all.

 

[NJDevs26]

You realize you only get 7 picks a year more if your lucky and sometimes less. When you look at impact after the first and second round it’s pretty much 5% and less of playing in the nhl. So yeah you need to slow down with the “he’s had 5 -7 years to restock. Definitely a fail

First of all, when you're rebuilding you'll find ways to get more picks - trading the few expendable vets you have and short-term guys like Stempniak. Teams that are going for it tend to have far fewer picks than teams in rebuild mode. In 2016 and 2017 alone Shero had twenty picks. Plus because the system was so barren thus allowing for instant playing time he was able to get Butcher for free so that was basically another high pick on top of it.

He also traded quite a few high-ish picks during this process for players that either didn't pan out (Mueller, Bennett), don't look like they'll pan out (Subban) or for guys who he had to flip later on (MarJo, Vatanen, perhaps Palm) for picks and prospects still years away. Let's factor that in too in the 'only five years worth of picks'. Five years is plenty of time to expect the team to be above ground zero in a rebuild.

Drafting is also not the only way to get talent. He tried the trade route but again had to cash out on the guys he acquired, that and sticking with Hynes pushed the process back years. The idea was not for a ten-year rebuild even though some fans seem to want that. If it was, then wasting picks on guys like Subban, Vatanen, Johansson etc was flat out stupid.

 

[Billdo]

That’s a fair point but I think it isn’t about the cap. It’s about the player issues. For Cory he potentially takes up a roster spot at a position where you can’t hide anyone and you really only get two slots per team. I’m not sure about the folks arguing that Subban should be bought out but they may not see him as a viable NHL defender. I don’t share that view but these are just opinions and often there isn’t a true correct answer.

With regard to Subban that stems from someone saying he's not even a third pairing d-man which is absurd.

 

[NJDevs26]

He's had 4 years, I don't count being named the GM in early May and having Conte run the 2015 draft as a part of Shero's portfolio of work. Zacha was a Conte pick, so was Blackwood. And he had very little to sell of when he took over. Look at the Rangers and how fast they were able to retool (though a still a work in progress of course). We didn't have a McDonagh, a Hayes, a Stepan, a Raanta, etc. We had Gelinas, Matteau, Fiddler, Kalinin, Wedgewood. And the decent players we did trade we got back strong returns with Larsson and Henrique.

This isn't being a Shero apologist or anything, I don't care. These are just the facts. I get being frustrated it's taken so long but this is what happens when he had to take over a team with an aging group with not many attractive pieces to trade away, or many draft impact draft picks coming in from prior years. "yeah but Severson, Wood, Coleman!" I f***ing get it, but again it took time for those guys to break in - time that we're all of sudden not giving Shero's picks? Why, out of frustration? Yes. McLeod wasn't a good pick. Bratt was. Maybe a few other 2016 picks can turn into something but it's still really early when looking at 2017 and beyond picks. "Yeah but even our 1st overall picks aren't doing much!" Is it Shero's fault he won the lottery in years where the reward wasn't McDavid or Matthews?

Realistically the turning point for this team was the Schneider trade. We had a great pick and could've taken a impact player like Horvat, instead we got an elite goalie at the time that single-handily dragged shitty teams to not so shitty finishes in years when a top pick could've catapulted this team into the different direction in McDavid and Matthews. And then when the team's complexion started to change for the better, Schneider turned into a potato.

Shero's biggest downfall was not getting rid of Hynes early enough. I think it was the same thing in Pittsburgh, and it happened here too. He was too loyal. He learned but he learned too late. Now we have an opportunity to get a real coach like Gallant or Boudreau or Lavy.

Thing is I don't disagree with much of this, the frustrating thing is there's zero progress on the ice comparing year one to year five. Heck they had a better record in year one than they'll wind up with this year. And yeah I know, but more prospects but more picks. It just becomes a bit empty when that's all we're pointing to year after year.

Shero did some good things, some neccesary things and I actually agreed with most of his moves when he made them. The problem is the results weren't improving after five years, having to trade guys like Hall, Vat and MarJo set back the rebuild further and we can't just keep blaming Lou for everything, especially when most of the roster has become Shero guys, it's become a comical meme.

Obviously the Cory situation hurt, as much because of the timing of his extension (only kicking in after his great first year post-Lou) as the timing of the trade itself but even cynics of the trade saying you can't trade a top ten pick for a goalie didn't see Cory falling off that fast, that soon into his deal. Still it's not like his cap hit really crippled the team itself, it's more the locking up the roster spot and waiting for his prior talent to show up between injuries and meltdowns that hamstrung us.

 

[Cheddabombs]

Thing is I don't disagree with much of this, the frustrating thing is there's zero progress on the ice comparing year one to year five. Heck they had a better record in year one than they'll wind up with this year. And yeah I know, but more prospects but more picks. It just becomes a bit empty when that's all we're pointing to year after year.

Shero did some good things, some neccesary things and I actually agreed with most of his moves when he made them. The problem is the results weren't improving after five years, having to trade guys like Hall, Vat and MarJo set back the rebuild further and we can't just keep blaming Lou for everything, especially when most of the roster has become Shero guys, it's become a comical meme.

Obviously the Cory situation hurt, as much because of the timing of his extension (only kicking in after his great first year post-Lou) as the timing of the trade itself but even cynics of the trade saying you can't trade a top ten pick for a goalie didn't see Cory falling off that fast, that soon into his deal. Still it's not like his cap hit really crippled the team itself, it's more the locking up the roster spot and waiting for his prior talent to show up between injuries and meltdowns that hamstrung us.

How far back did those trades really set us though? The Hall trade was a no brainer, we still sucked the first year we got him and wound up with Nico + a load of other prospects. The Vatanen trade helped us make the playoffs that year, which hey maybe wasn't the best move but given how hungry everyone is for some success I won't argue with it - in the same light the Grabner trade was likely worse for us in that Rykov is a good LHD prospect which we lack, but again maybe worth it to make the playoffs again? The MoJo trade we gave up a 2018 2nd and 3rd, and would we really expect those picks to be making an impact for us now? No, there have been 28 total NHL games between two players taken in the 2nd and 3rd rounds that year so far.

The Mueller trade wasn't good in hindsight but it wasn't that big of a cost for a young LHD which again we needed, c'est la vie.

A roster can be filled with draft picks, trades, or signings. Maybe Shero could've done more with regards to signings but I personally never really criticize a GM over not signing free agents, there are too many factors behind the scenes that we don't know. Trades can be tough, it's hard to know what's happening behind the scenes as well and who/what opportunities may be available but for the most part Shero's trades were fine.

With respect to rebuilding it comes back to what I said before, what did he have to work with in trade bait? An aging group that didn't really yield much, a small group of core players that stayed (Zajac, Greene, etc) some younger players that were worth holding onto (Severson, Wood, etc) and then more expendable pieces that were good but could be traded off for the right price (Larsson, Henrique). I really don't see how he could've done thaaat much better. Maybe just says f*** it and sells everything off to turn into draft picks, but that leads to the last point which is picks and that it's still too early to say for sure how he did there. Especially with the picks that he did trade to try and make the team better.

We're gonna start to see the fruits of those drafts come up soon. Smith should be an NHL regular next year, I know we said that last year but gotta think he's ready now. Boqvist should be an NHL regular next year. Anderson could be a mainstay in the bottom 6 sooner or later too. Then you think about the other young guys recently acquired that maybe not ready next year but soon - Bahl, Merkely, Kuokkanen, Point (I know not all Shero, now I'm just bringing it back to the team's state right now) and there has to be a bit more excitement.

The more I think on it the more I realize how badly the Cory trade made things. I love the guy don't get me wrong, but really did not fit the timeline for where the team was at and only prolonged the rebuilding process.

 

[MadDevil]

I do wonder how much the Hall trade altered Shero's plans. Because that seemed like more taking advantage of Chiarelli's desperation to add a defenseman than it was a planned out move. If Shero had said "Sorry, it doesn't fit our timeline to trade a second pairing defenseman for an elite first line winger" he would have been rightfully ripped to shreds. If that trade didn't come up, would we have spent the assets we did for players that could help more immediately? Or would it have been more of a full on "We're just going to be as bad as possible for a few years" type of rebuild?

I think bad timing kind of sums up the Shero era. Cory went from still elite (or at least still good) at the beginning when we probably should have been bad, then got worse as the team should have been getting better. Then you've got Hall, who was still in his prime and we basically wasted outside of the MVP season. Then we finally trade for a big name defenseman in Subban, right as he's declining. The timing of all of it was just off, and combined with Hynes behind the bench it just ended up being a clusterf***.

 

[guitarguyvic]

I do wonder how much the Hall trade altered Shero's plans. Because that seemed like more taking advantage of Chiarelli's desperation to add a defenseman than it was a planned out move. If Shero had said "Sorry, it doesn't fit our timeline to trade a second pairing defenseman for an elite first line winger" he would have been rightfully ripped to shreds. If that trade didn't come up, would we have spent the assets we did for players that could help more immediately? Or would it have been more of a full on "We're just going to be as bad as possible for a few years" type of rebuild?

I think bad timing kind of sums up the Shero era. Cory went from still elite (or at least still good) at the beginning when we probably should have been bad, then got worse as the team should have been getting better. Then you've got Hall, who was still in his prime and we basically wasted outside of the MVP season. Then we finally trade for a big name defenseman in Subban, right as he's declining. The timing of all of it was just off, and combined with Hynes behind the bench it just ended up being a clusterf***.

Isn’t it the GM’s job to assess these things and ensure it is timed right? With the exception of Cory falling off a cliff, every single one of those examples was plausible at the time.

 

[JrFischer54]

First of all, when you're rebuilding you'll find ways to get more picks - trading the few expendable vets you have and short-term guys like Stempniak. Teams that are going for it tend to have far fewer picks than teams in rebuild mode. In 2016 and 2017 alone Shero had twenty picks. Plus because the system was so barren thus allowing for instant playing time he was able to get Butcher for free so that was basically another high pick on top of it.

He also traded quite a few high-ish picks during this process for players that either didn't pan out (Mueller, Bennett), don't look like they'll pan out (Subban) or for guys who he had to flip later on (MarJo, Vatanen, perhaps Palm) for picks and prospects still years away. Let's factor that in too in the 'only five years worth of picks'. Five years is plenty of time to expect the team to be above ground zero in a rebuild.

Drafting is also not the only way to get talent. He tried the trade route but again had to cash out on the guys he acquired, that and sticking with Hynes pushed the process back years. The idea was not for a ten-year rebuild even though some fans seem to want that. If it was, then wasting picks on guys like Subban, Vatanen, Johansson etc was flat out stupid.

the trade chip you mention is lee stempniak enough said about the talent level he had when he came here. Mueller was for a 2nd rounder. Again look at the success rate of 2nd it’s around 44% to turn into just an nhl player. Basically the devils traded a 2nd round pick for the equivalent of 2nd round talent muller the trade is a wash.

the devils traded a 2nd 3rd for mojo and got a 2nd and 4th back. What’s the complain there?

also he didn’t trade away any “

He might have gotten butcher but he lost kerfoot to get him so it was a wash talent wise.

you mention he had 20 picks in 16&17. How many of those were first rounders? You know picks that roughly 80% of the time will turn into nhl talent? Only 8 of those picks were in the first 3 rounds and thats not as good as it sounds when by round 3 the talent drops to 30%. Which btw how long do you think it will take those picks to actually contribute at the nhl level if they even make it? Probably around now or next year.

He also didn’t trade away any “high-ish” picks. The highest was a 2nd rounder and again take it into freaking context on the type of player they got back! A third rounder for Bennett is equivalent to keeping that pick and in 4 years time you will HOPEFULLY have a Bennett!


As my cousin vinny once said. “I’m finished with this guy”

 

[NJDevs26]

So basically you can only rebuild with first rounders and they're the only draft picks with value. Guess that explains why you think it takes ten years to rebuild.

 

[JrFischer54]

So basically you can only rebuild with first rounders and they're the only draft picks with value. Guess that explains why you think it takes ten years to rebuild.

not at all but you seem to think because you have 20 picks in two years when over half of them are past the 3rd round we should be in a playoff spot by now lol.

 

[Zippy316]

If you remove Schneider from the equation, the Devils have MBW and zero goaltenders with a NHL track record. You would at least need a back-up, who can start 30 games at the NHL level. Better you opt for a more experienced goalie, who can share the starting position with MBW. Having then the current Bingo trio of Senn, Cormier and McIntyre as potential injury call-ups, also looks rather light. Especially if you don't have a platoon of two starting caliber goalies in the NHL. So you might want to add an experienced goalie for Bing, who would get the first look for NHL call-ups and help groom the young goalies in the AHL. Schneider could serve this role and he seems to be a loyal team first guy.

There's some quality options in the free agent pool. Halak, Greiss, Lehner, Markstrom, Talbot, Khudobin, Elliott.

Preference goes to Halak, Khudobin, or Greiss as Markstrom/Lehner likely look for starting roles, but all of those options should be quality backups to Blackwood capable of playing 30 games.

 

[MadDevil]

Isn’t it the GM’s job to assess these things and ensure it is timed right? With the exception of Cory falling off a cliff, every single one of those examples was plausible at the time.

Sure, but we also know how things played out. Just because it's plausible something may not work doesn't mean it's guaranteed not to. It's plausible that every one of his moves that didn't work could have worked. They didn't, and here we are. Building a team is not an exact science where you follow a blueprint and everything just magically works out.

 

[glenwo2]

There's some quality options in the free agent pool. Halak, Greiss, Lehner, Markstrom, Talbot, Khudobin, Elliott.

Preference goes to Halak, Khudobin, or Greiss as Markstrom/Lehner likely look for starting roles, but all of those options should be quality backups to Blackwood capable of playing 30 games.

I want to hear @Bleedred 's take on this 'cause he seems to be the one focused on Goaltenders.

I just want a competent stopgap backup to give Blackwood some rest but at the same time win us some games instead of being.....Cory Schneider'ish.

 

[TBF1972]

Halak will turn soon 35.
Khudobin is just one year younger.
And Greiss sits somewhere in the middle.
All three could soon sharply decline like Cory. So I would not commit for more than two seasons.

 

[Bleedred]

A couple of those goalies I could see coming here and playing really poorly. Like being way worse than they were with their current teams.

Halak has overachieved a bunch in Boston, but could still be decent here.

Khudobin seems to have overachieved a bunch in Dallas.

Greiss could be decent here in a backup role.

Talbot has been pretty poor the two years before this, but is having a good season in a limited backup role in Calgary.

 

[Call Me Al]

shero built a better team that still had a sh*tty coach that’s a big reason for the lack of progress in the standings imo

 

[Billdo]

There's some quality options in the free agent pool. Halak, Greiss, Lehner, Markstrom, Talbot, Khudobin, Elliott.

Preference goes to Halak, Khudobin, or Greiss as Markstrom/Lehner likely look for starting roles, but all of those options should be quality backups to Blackwood capable of playing 30 games.

This is my thought process as well. Let Blackwood take 50ish starts. Find a goalie who literally isn't statistically one of the worst in the league (Schneider and Domingue both were) who can start 25-30 games. The team would look a lot different if our backs up didn't go a combined 6-15 with a save percentage of around .885 and a GAA of around 3.5. Say our back up went 10-11 that would've put us in a the hunt at least or not in the dumpster at least.

 

[JimEIV]

I would be much more concerned with the Defense than Goaltending. Then even the lack of goal scorers before goaltending...

But the Defense is an absolute train wreck.

There is no Left side of this Defense. It doesn't exist. Butcher is #1 on the depth chart from the left side...The worst part of this is it was obvious since John Moore and Jon Merrill were here and absolutely nothing has been done to address it....We all knew Greene was slowing down...We knew it for 3 years and we also knew he was all there was from the left side...From May 2015 to December 2020 the best LHD addition was John Moore....Are you freaking kidding me? A half a decade, a bajillion draft picks and we couldn't find 1 decent LHD to play stable top 4 minutes? You needed 1 guy behind Greene...1. One in 5 freakin years and it never happened.

Your depth chart right now without consideration of handedness is Severson, Subban and Butcher...?, ?, ?....The Defense is broken down and in shambles...And throwing a kid like Smith in this mix is going to be a horror show for him.

How anyone could look at this defense not just today, at any point point of his tenure, and argue Shero was competent is beyond me.

 

[Billdo]

I would be much more concerned with the Defense than Goaltending. Then even the lack of goal scorers before goaltending...

But the Defense is an absolute train wreck.

There is no Left side of this Defense. It doesn't exist. Butcher is #1 on the depth chart from the left side...The worst part of this is it was obvious since John Moore and Jon Merrill were here and absolutely nothing has been done to address it....We all knew Greene was slowing down...We knew it for 3 years and we also knew he was all there was from the left side...From May 2015 to December 2020 the best LHD addition was John Moore....Are you freaking kidding me? A half a decade, a bajillion draft picks and we couldn't find 1 decent LHD to play stable top 4 minutes? You needed 1 guy behind Greene...1. One in 5 freakin years and it never happened.

Your depth chart right now without consideration of handedness is Severson, Subban and Butcher...?, ?, ?....The Defense is broken down and in shambles...And throwing a kid like Smith in this mix is going to be a horror show for him.

How anyone could look at this defense not just today, at any point point of his tenure, and argue Shero was competent is beyond me.

Been saying this for a long while at this point. I agree. We desperately needed a LD1 or even a fringe LD1. Having that would've bumped Greene to LD2 then Mueller/Butcher to LD3. All of these would've been better. Butcher has shown zero progression but it's a NHLer. Mueller has stretched where he plays well but overall I don't think he'll be back next year and he's probably a 7th defenseman anyway on a decent team. Ty Smith was supposed to be the addition the previous year but had a bad camp. Hopefully he comes in next year ready to step up. The lack of ANY LD addition is the biggest thing I'd blame solely on Shero. That and banking on Schneider although I'm not sure what they could've done with him because of his contract and injuries. Defense needs to be addressed as it will help every other facet of the team if they defense doesn't suck. For the record, I liked Moore, I wish he stayed. I would've much rather had a defensive group of Greene, Moore, Butcher, Subban, Vatanen, and Severson than the dumpster fire we had all season.

 

[Nubmer6]

There is no Left side of this Defense. It doesn't exist. Butcher is #1 on the depth chart from the left side...The worst part of this is it was obvious since John Moore and Jon Merrill were here and absolutely nothing has been done to address it....

I wouldn't say we didn't at least TRY to address it. We have a ton of LHD draft picks to the point where Bing is loaded on LHD and has no depth on the right.

Maybe I'm just making excuses, but I'm just not sure what was out there at a reasonable price. Every time we heard of a top 4 D being available, it seemed to be a RHD. I'm sure none of use would have been happy if we addressed it like Chiarelli did and overpaid for a LHD. Also, just as an example, Montreal's been looking for a top 4 LHD for as long as we have, and they haven't been able to snag one either. We rolled the dice on Mueller and it didn't pan out, so I don't think it's for lack of trying.

 

[JimEIV]

Been saying this for a long while at this point. I agree. We desperately needed a LD1 or even a fringe LD1. Having that would've bumped Greene to LD2 then Mueller/Butcher to LD3. All of these would've been better. Butcher has shown zero progression but it's a NHLer. Mueller has stretched where he plays well but overall I don't think he'll be back next year and he's probably a 7th defenseman anyway on a decent team. Ty Smith was supposed to be the addition the previous year but had a bad camp. Hopefully he comes in next year ready to step up. The lack of ANY LD addition is the biggest thing I'd blame solely on Shero. That and banking on Schneider although I'm not sure what they could've done with him because of his contract and injuries. Defense needs to be addressed as it will help every other facet of the team if they defense doesn't suck. For the record, I liked Moore, I wish he stayed. I would've much rather had a defensive group of Greene, Moore, Butcher, Subban, Vatanen, and Severson than the dumpster fire we had all season.

I didn't like Moore at all...But he was better than nothing...We literally replace him with nothing.

I suppose Mueller was supposed to be the replacement? But in my opinion that raises an even bigger question of the organizations ability to assess Dmen...Mueller didn't come particularly cheap either, 49th overall and 123rd overall is not a bad price for a regular Dman, in fact I would call it a good price for a regular Dman... but Mueller hasn't been anything near that.

 

[Billdo]

I didn't like Moore at all...But he was better than nothing...We literally replace him with nothing.

I suppose Mueller was supposed to be the replacement? But in my opinion that raises an even bigger question of the organizations ability to assess Dmen...Mueller didn't come particularly cheap either, 49th overall and 123rd overall is not a bad price for a regular Dman, in fact I would call it a good price for a regular Dman... but Mueller hasn't been anything near that.

I'd assume they were betting on him becoming that though, that would be the reason. Change of scenery to a team that has a clearer path towards being a regular. I'm not saying it turned out that way but I would think they felt Mueller would've stepped up. He's shown the ability in spurts but hasn't put it together all the time.

 

[None Shall Pass]

The spurts Mueller has, though, make me think there's something there. I'd love to see him under a new coach. I'd love to see all of our team under a new coach, to be honest. We've only seen Hynes (And Nas dropped into a dumpster fire). Mueller played a lot better under Nas.