GDT: Stares vs Aves(yes I'm bringing it back) 7PM MST

dahrougem2

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Dec 9, 2011
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3. Ryan Graves was okay as the top pairing LD for a while but now that Makar has come back to earth his flaws are very much exposed. His outlet passes are horrific--he was pinging them off skates a bunch in the third (don't know if that was happening in the other two periods) he's not suitable for that role any longer. Not sure what you do there either.
Not only is Ryan Graves looking horrendous again, but he's hindering Makar I believe because of his insistence to be the guy that jumps up into the rush and carry the puck.
 

larueskee

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Mar 15, 2017
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Uh boy...

Missed the first two periods, sat down for the third just in time to watch them blow yet another lead and turn in yet another weak OT effort.

So, here's the deal.

1. This team is not built to survive mediocre-to-bad goaltending. Few teams are. But the Avs have some giant, gaping holes on defense that have been mitigated for the most part due to Cale Makar's stellar play, a much better defensive effort and makeup up front, really outstanding goaltending, and scoring coming in bunches from everywhere in light of injuries. Virtually all of that good fortune has dried up and has left the big deficits on this team exposed. I guess you ride out the goaltending--nothing more you can do--but I still think they either need to address the deficits on defense and perhaps up front as well, or just ride it out entirely and hope to hell they get hot again. But then they will have to live with the possibility of no playoffs.

2. Erik Johnson is clearly not a top-four guy. I'm beginning to wonder if he's even a bottom pairing guy. In addition to being outskated on a regular basis, he's being outmuscled. I get that there aren't any pristine options at present but they have to do something different.

3. Ryan Graves was okay as the top pairing LD for a while but now that Makar has come back to earth his flaws are very much exposed. His outlet passes are horrific--he was pinging them off skates a bunch in the third (don't know if that was happening in the other two periods) he's not suitable for that role any longer. Not sure what you do there either.

4. Special teams are not anywhere close to acceptable. I am not at all on-board with a head coaching change, but I'm said before and I'll say again that I've been dicey of Nolan Pratt. But that still feels like a knee-jerk reaction to a bigger issue--again, the defense just isn't good enough. Two top-pairing guys and four bottom-pairing guys is simply not adequate for a team calling itself a contender. Unless they're not a contender and just another bubble team. I dunno...I don't exactly know what the answer is there.

In conclusion, if this team is content with Erik Johnson and Ryan Graves as top-four defenders and Andre Burakovsky as their third-best winger, then we'll just have to all close our eyes, click our heels, cross our fingers, and hope to hell they just find another hot streak to go on. Nothing they can do about the goaltending--they're just gonna have to figure it out on their own. I'm not gonna sit here and say they need to do whatever's necessary to bolster the lineup, but I feel like SOMETHING has to be done. If they sit and wait and let this be just another transition year I think that'd be a terrible waste.
I agree with much of your post and wanted to point out some things. When EJ was out for games between 11/27-12/18 the Avs lost the last game EJ played in on 11/23 and they lost the first game he returned in on 12/19. While he was out of the lineup the Avs had a record of 9 wins 3 losses and 1 ot loss. During that span the Avs outscored the opposition 42-22. The Avs record since EJ returned is 3 wins 6 losses and 3 ot ot so losses. Its glaring, its obvious, but at 6 million a year can you bench him? I do think lots of teams are interested in righthanded d men who can provide some offense. I would hope the Avs find a way to move him.
 
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S E P H

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This season so far Grubauer has a .909 save % some of the others behind him?
  1. Lundqvist .907% - $8.5 mil per
  2. Price .907% - $10.5 mil per
  3. Fleury .906% $7mil per
  4. Hart .905% ELC
  5. Gibson .905% $6.4mil per
  6. Holtby .899% $6.1mil per
  7. Murray .896% $3.75mil per
  8. Bobrovsky .896% $10mil per
  9. Rinne .896% $5mil per
  10. Dubnyk . 891% $4.33mil per
Grubauer $3.33mil per. People want to flip Grubauer for Lundqvist or Price, how does that help?
I also agree that goaltending is a very easy scapegoat excuse, but I also suggest that some of these would play much better on our team than our current tandem. For example, Gibson would probably be in the Vezina consideration if he was able to play for our team. There are other debates with Fleury, Holtby, and Murray, but the rest are goalers who have been trending downwards for the last couple of seasons.

1. This team is not built to survive mediocre-to-bad goaltending
There was no medicore goaltending yesterday. One was good, the other one was great.

I am not at all on-board with a head coaching change, but I'm said before and I'll say again that I've been dicey of Nolan Pratt.
Him and Bednar are brothers, job security is obviously a different story, but it would be hard to see a situation where one of them goes and the other stays.
 

mapletreemarty

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He can say he needs to be better. He didnt even do that. Its his teammates fault they lost the faceoff, they need to stay out the box, they need to limit scoring chances, they need to back check.
The Avs did that all night. That PP goal is on Grubauer NOT the PK unit. This guy is something else.
That PP goal was going wide of the f***ing net until he flailed his blocker out there and knocked it into his own net... I have no respect for a guy who can't own his own shit in all of this. $3.5 million and zero f***ing accountability.
 

Pokecheque

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I agree with much of your post and wanted to point out some things. When EJ was out for games between 11/27-12/18 the Avs lost the last game EJ played in on 11/23 and they lost the first game he returned in on 12/19. While he was out of the lineup the Avs had a record of 9 wins 3 losses and 1 ot loss. During that span the Avs outscored the opposition 42-22. The Avs record since EJ returned is 3 wins 6 losses and 3 ot ot so losses. Its glaring, its obvious, but at 6 million a year can you bench him? I do think lots of teams are interested in righthanded d men who can provide some offense. I would hope the Avs find a way to move him.

I was honestly thinking the same thing. Admittedly it's not as cut-and-dried as "EJ is pulling the team down like a toothless anchor" but I still maintain that the complexion of the defense changed while he was out.

I hope Joe is calling Bob Murray right now. Ain't nobody loves big, slow, gritty defenders with "leadership" skills more than he does.

Don't know if you can bench the guy, but Bednar is not stupid. He limited the hell outta EJ's minutes before (and ironically that was kind of a mistake then) last season, and is trying to do so again. Very similar to what Quenneville was trying to do with Seabrook his final couple seasons in Chicago--he knew he had a bit of a turkey on his hands and sheltered the hell outta him to try and cover for him, but it was all for naught.

I don't know how this saga ends. It could very well come down to a buyout, but that'll be costly in the long run. $2 million AAV for the next six seasons, which saves $4 million for the next three (and also takes care of the expansion draft business), which they could conceivably use. I'd hate for it to end that way for EJ, who absolutely loves being an Avalanche player, but I just don't think he's much of an NHL defenseman at this point.

Very ironic--technically speaking he's posting some of his best underlying numbers (though I think that has mostly to do with the players around him than he himself). Previously he's been one of the few guys who had bad fancy stats that the fancy stats people actually liked.
 
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Avs425

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Did you just say in the last 20 games the Avs can’t put the puck in the net?

Since Dec 4th (20 games) the Avalanche have the 5th most goals in the NHL.

There’s no need to just flat out lie.

Sure maybe through the big three who have almost 50% of the teams goals scored during that stretch, but what about our "secondary scoring"? You don't see any correlation bettew the recent lack of production from guys like Kadri, Bura, Donskoi, Compher, Jost and the goalies struggling?

Im not trying to "flat out lie" just trying to make sense of things and defend one of our players receiving a lot of flak that i personally don't think he fully deserves, you don't have to be an a** about it.
 

Cousin Eddie

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Sure maybe through the big three who have almost 50% of the teams goals scored during that stretch, but what about our "secondary scoring"? You don't see any correlation bettew the recent lack of production from guys like Kadri, Bura, Donskoi, Compher, Jost and the goalies struggling?

Im not trying to "flat out lie" just trying to make sense of things and defend one of our players receiving a lot of flak that i personally don't think he fully deserves, you don't have to be an a** about it.
Goals are goals. Sure it would be great if every player on the roster could score every night but the fact is that the team is scoring enough to win games.

No I don’t see any correlation between forwards not scoring a lot and Grubauer not being able to make a save.
 
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Avsboy

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We dominated this game. I'm not that worried. The goaltending is leaking in soft goals and giving up juicy rebounds.
 

mapletreemarty

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Those goalies records since Dec. 1:
Grubs 3-5-2
Hart 7-6-0 (interesting to see how long he's hurt for)
Binnington 9-3-0 (f*** off STL...)
Gibson 5-8-1 (Ducks suck)
Andersen 9-3-2 (Should have 2 more losses from being pulled early but the Leafs scored enough to save his goalie record)
Rinne 6-6-1 (but he scored a goal!!!!)
Fleury 7-5-1 (yet his coach just got fired)
Holtby 5-7-0 (Caps have only 11 losses in regulation all season....)
 

The Mars Volchenkov

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Not sure if it was talked about but Kam looked good given a shot with skilled guys in the third. Nuke has been solid but he just looks better playing with other grinders, so I’d be cool with seeing how that looks next game. Kam probably isn’t long for this organization but give other teams a look at what he can do with some other guys with skill.
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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Statistically, he’s the worst. The Avs give up the most shot attempts per 60 against with him out there (by far), shots on goal against, unblocked attempts against, etc. Last night he gave up two royal road passes on back to back goals, but was bailed out by Benn’s foot being 1/4 of a centimeter off the ice.

Statistically, Z is actually by far their most effective D on the PK by the stats and it’s by kind of a wide margin. I’m on a phone right now so it’s tough to post these but the Avs give up 23 shot attempts more per 60 with Graves out there and 10 shots on goal per 60 with him on the PK.

The PK wasn’t good last year either but Graves is much worse than Nemeth in that spot.


It all depends on what statistic you choose to use as well as how you interpret that statistic and how it relates to other statistics.

For example, his PPGA/60 is 2nd best of the 4 Dmen that play a regular shift on the PK for us. Zadorov has the best GA/60 rate, but he also plays by far the least amount of time on the kill as well. He's primarily used against secondary PP units which is automatically going to lend itself to less goals given up.


Johnson is the worst while also playing the most minutes, slightly higher than Graves.


Graves is also the 2nd most used PK guy behind only EJ, meaning he sees a lot more of a teams 1st unit PP than Zadorov does.

The eye test certainly supports that Graves is the most active Dman on the PK. He's the best skater in that group and the one with the most active stick.



Which really speaks more to how awful our PK is and how awful Cole is.


Zads does a good job at getting in shooting lanes but he is clueless when it comes to stick placement.
 
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Pokecheque

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There was no medicore goaltending yesterday. One was good, the other one was great.

Beg to differ. "Good" goalies don't give up those last two goals. They just don't.

Him and Bednar are brothers, job security is obviously a different story, but it would be hard to see a situation where one of them goes and the other stays.

They hired Pratt before Roy even resigned, so I don't know how joined-at-the-hip they are.
 

S E P H

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Beg to differ. "Good" goalies don't give up those last two goals. They just don't.
That's just wrong, every goaler gives up rebounds. A major part of the defence is to clear them, just look at Varlamov's shutout against us. Rebounds galore, more than our two give up, but they have the box structure to clear the rebounds before they become dangerous.
 

Pokecheque

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That's just wrong, every goaler gives up rebounds. A major part of the defence is to clear them, just look at Varlamov's shutout against us. Rebounds galore, more than our two give up, but they have the box structure to clear the rebounds before they become dangerous.

Sorry, I didn't mean that 2nd goal, I meant the first. Groob was square to the shooter and could see him past Graves, and still gave up the goal off a pretty meh shot. That's just not a goal you can give up if you're a good goaltender.

It doesn't help that the Avs have a horrible PK that doesn't even bother trying to tie up passing lanes though. The Royal Road is always wiiiiiiiiiiiiide open.

His rebound control has regressed badly though. He gets into these funks from time to time where it feels like he's fighting the puck. I'm relatively confident that he will get it fixed, it just sucks that while Groob has become mediocre, Frankie has completely imploded.

Anyway, my original point still stands--I don't think he played a "good" game. The first and also the final OT goal were just not ones he can give up. It doesn't mean he's bad, just ordinary right now.
 

Foppa2118

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Oct 3, 2003
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Linesmen to me more than the referees pick and choose favourites. Can't nobody tell me linesmen around the league don't actively look forward to tossing Nazem Kadri from faceoffs to send him a message.

He does nothing differently than any of the other top centres at faceoffs in the league, yet he is constantly tossed. Meanwhile Joe Pavelski, a dude who is known around the league as an egregious cheater on faceoffs, just stands in there like it's nothing and the linesmen doesn't even bother to look at his stick or body position or anything.

Just ridiculous. The NHL has a big time officiating problem and linesmen are just as big a part of the problem.

Very good point. I think Naz is intentionally aggressive at certain times as a strategy, especially on the PP, because they have guys that can step in win after him. Bednar has talked about this. I don't think he does himself any favors by how often he chirps the linesman either. He does it all the time and they probably don't like it.

That said, this shouldn't matter at all. You should call the game as a ref the exact same way for everyone, and the same goes for linesman and their duties.

Like you say, Pavelski is notoriously aggressive on faceoffs too, and takes a lot of cheap shots against his opposing center directly after the draw. Yet he seems to get waaaaaaay more leeway with the linesmen than Kadri.

This was a perfect example. The linesman should never have dropped the puck to begin with, and after he did, he should have blown the whistle immediately for an unfair drop. Just an awful game changing play in a big game.
 

dahrougem2

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Very good point. I think Naz is intentionally aggressive at certain times as a strategy, especially on the PP, because they have guys that can step in win after him. Bednar has talked about this. I don't think he does himself any favors by how often he chirps the linesman either. He does it all the time and they probably don't like it.

That said, this shouldn't matter at all. You should call the game as a ref the exact same way for everyone, and the same goes for linesman and their duties.

Like you say, Pavelski is notoriously aggressive on faceoffs too, and takes a lot of cheap shots against his opposing center directly after the draw. Yet he seems to get waaaaaaay more leeway with the linesmen than Kadri.

This was a perfect example. The linesman should never have dropped the puck to begin with, and after he did, he should have blown the whistle immediately for an unfair drop. Just an awful game changing play in a big game.
I think one of the reasons why Kadri chirps the linesmen so much is exactly that. Players like Pavelski can seemingly get away with murder off of the draw, and nothing happens to them.

Kadri will be just a bit too aggressive, and he's tossed immediately. It's just human nature to me to get that upset when there's a clear double standard towards him. He hasn't done himself any favours, but I also get where he's coming from.
 

henchman21

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I think one of the reasons why Kadri chirps the linesmen so much is exactly that. Players like Pavelski can seemingly get away with murder off of the draw, and nothing happens to them.

Kadri will be just a bit too aggressive, and he's tossed immediately. It's just human nature to me to get that upset when there's a clear double standard towards him. He hasn't done himself any favours, but I also get where he's coming from.

Kadri is about the whiniest center I've ever seen on draws. :laugh:

Even on clear violations:
1q4Ba8S.gif
 

NeverBeNormal

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I really don't like watching this team right now

I've just been following scores. It's painful enough watching the score even up in the 3rd every damn game. They better figure this out quick because the cushion they built early is gone.
 

henchman21

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Lmao while you're definitely not wrong, I also see why he has a gripe. Linesmen don't even hide their disdain towards him, and he doesn't hide his towards them.
XOMwviB.gif


(I'm totally on team Kadri here... linesman enjoy their power too much)
 

Balthazar

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Lmao while you're definitely not wrong, I also see why he has a gripe. Linesmen don't even hide their disdain towards him, and he doesn't hide his towards them.
He constantly whines and embellishes. Not sure how someone could blame the refs for not liking him and not giving him the benefit of the doubt.
 

The Kingslayer

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Well the first one IMO if it was Grubs allowing that goal alot of people here would've crucified him. It was a tip and a hard one to control.
Zads goal? That's not a bad goal lol. If that happened to Grubauer nobody should be calling it out. A pass attempt that goes in off a stars defender and in is bad luck not a goal you fault Bishop for. If Bishop let in a goal like the first one Grubauer let in last night then yah that's a bad goal.
 

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