Movies: Star Wars VIII The Last Jedi, for those who have seen it! (SPOILERS) | Part II

[tacogeoff]

Yeah, I agree that more movies are needed to see if the trend continues, or if TLJ/R1 are the constant. I do also agree that hype was a massive reason for the great success of TFA (like you’re suggesting, it may just be the outlier). One thing that may suggest otherwise is the growth of these marvel movies (Infinity War surpassing the success of TFA), but they are two different franchises and we can interpret the growing success of one and the falling of the other in different ways.

I’m of the opinion though, that right now, the once great and unsinkable franchise, is going down fast and hard. That’s not to say that I don’t think that there are things that they can do to right the ship (weld the holes/pump out the water), but I think that those things that need to be done are massive. Some even say they need to come out and apologize/“retcon” for everything, Lol. I don’t think that would be fair to everyone who has enjoyed these new movies though.

Worst case scenario for Disney (continued downward trend from Solo), and if they don’t let their pride get in the way, they can always continue to make substantially lower budget Star Wars films. This would keep the people that enjoy them happy. I’m actually mildly curious to hear about all the new force powers they would have invented, say 10 films down the line. It could get pretty crazy Lol!

stand alone movies aside. It will be interesting to see if the main series has the same trajectory as SW 123. where TPM boomed with the hype and hit over 1 billion, then AOTC dropped way down to 650m and then to finish of the trilogy ROTS bumped back up to 840m. I am in the boat where since I have seen TFA (enjoyed it) and TLJ (didn't hate it but didn't love it) I almost feel the need to just finish it out when the third comes out. I am interested to see how many others are in that same boat and if it will raise the viewings of RJ's third.

 

[Moon Man]

stand alone movies aside. It will be interesting to see if the main series has the same trajectory as SW 123. where TPM boomed with the hype and hit over 1 billion, then AOTC dropped way down to 650m and then to finish of the trilogy ROTS bumped back up to 840m. I am in the boat where since I have seen TFA (enjoyed it) and TLJ (didn't hate it but didn't love it) I almost feel the need to just finish it out when the third comes out. I am interested to see how many others are in that same boat and if it will raise the viewings of RJ's third.

Oh yeah, one way or another, this whole thing is fascinating. I know you won’t be alone in watching the third, their are even many that are crazy for The Last Jedi (my gosh, just check out the critics score on Rotton Tomatoes). Good or bad, I’m also really interested in seeing how well it does.

What is RJ’s third? Do you mean the trilogy of movies that Ryan Johnson’s been given?

Edit: Rian Johnson*

 

[tacogeoff]

Oh yeah, one way or another, this whole thing is fascinating. I know you won’t be alone in watching the third, their are even many that are crazy for The Last Jedi (my gosh, just check out the critics score on Rotton Tomatoes). Good or bad, I’m also really interested in seeing how well it does.

What is RJ’s third? Do you mean the trilogy of movies that Ryan Johnson’s been given?

Edit: Rian Johnson*

oops. I forgot JJ did TFA.

So is there going to be more than the standard three star wars continual entries in regards to the Rey and Finn characters? I don't really look far ahead when it comes to movies.

 

[Moon Man]

oops. I forgot JJ did TFA.

So is there going to be more than the standard three star wars continual entries in regards to the Rey and Finn characters? I don't really look far ahead when it comes to movies.

I think JJ is doing episode 9, but there could also be more directors on it as well.

Yes, if I’m remembering right, just before the release of TLJ, Kathleen Kennedy said she enjoyed working with Rian Johnson so much that she gave him an entire trilogy to create/direct by himself. It will come out after episode 9 and will supposedly feature all new characters and be separate from the Skywalker Saga. Some who disliked TLJ say that this was only done to help promote TLJ, and the trilogy will now be taken away from Rian, but nothing has publicly come out to support what they’re saying as far as I’m aware. I think unless something comes out publicly, he’s going to be the creator/director of it. They probably had a contract drawn up and signed for her (Kathleen) to come out and say that.

 

[Shockmaster]

I think JJ is doing episode 9, but there could also be more directors on it as well.

Yes, if I’m remembering right, just before the release of TLJ, Kathleen Kennedy said she enjoyed working with Rian Johnson so much that she gave him an entire trilogy to create/direct by himself. It will come out after episode 9 and will supposedly feature all new characters and be separate from the Skywalker Saga. Some who disliked TLJ say that this was only done to help promote TLJ, and the trilogy will now be taken away from Rian, but nothing has publicly come out to support what they’re saying as far as I’m aware. I think unless something comes out publicly, he’s going to be the creator/director of it. They probably had a contract drawn up and signed for her (Kathleen) to come out and say that.

Or if Episode IX flops. If that happens, I think Disney would be compelled to ditch Kathleen Kennedy and scrap many of her plans for beyond, including the Rian Johnson trilogy.

 

[Moon Man]

Or if Episode IX flops. If that happens, I think Disney would be compelled to ditch Kathleen Kennedy and scrap many of her plans for beyond, including the Rian Johnson trilogy.

Yeah, if they can get out of the contract with Rian (if there even is a contract). Many of these plans might not even be her plans, they could be mostly the Lucasfilm Story Group’s plans. Who knows what happens behind those walls. As the chief head executive though, all of the misfortune of the franchise, and the potential misfortune to come, she bears a substantial chunk of the responsibility.

 

[CTC]

But for me to accept that Luke would consider this as a solution, I need some set up. I need to see Luke teaching Kylo as a kid. I need to see Snoke influencing Kylo. I need to see Kylo doing some evil things, or I need to see Luke see the future with his force powers and see Kylo doing horrible things. I need to see Luke engaging with him and trying to turn him away form the dark side. It needs some build up. I just don't think you can make a hero character with a morale standard do something like what he did in TLJ without actually building up toward it. It needs to be shown on the screen. And if you remove the canto blight 30 minutes waste of time, and instead build this up.. perhaps today I think the movie is a heck of a lot better. But as is stands right now, I cannot accept that Luke would act this way. I cannot imagine a scenario where this makes sense. You have to actually show that scenario to me for me to accept it. And Johnson did not do that. Instead, he decided to use his air time showing Luke angrily drinking green milk from some creature's *******, and that awful casino bit that made zero sense.



It's a major issue. I feel strongly about it. But even if I am personally overstating its importance.... and it's minor... the entire movie sucks. I don't want to hate everything about it. But I do.. it's a genuinely terrible movie with no redeeming qualities. I am serious it has no qualities. TFA had a lot of flaws. It was not original, just a rehash of IV. But it was also a fun time at the movies. It made you think that the next 2 movies could potentially be great. TLJ crapped all over that.

I'll toss my opinion here...I just rewatched it for the first time, I really didn't like it in theaters but basically...what you are saying that you needed to see on screen is what I took from the film in that 10 second scene when he finally explains what happens. Like literally...everything you said about the build up is what I expected happened and it got to the point that Luke had to look into Ben and his future and was so troubled by what he saw happening that he reacted instinctively to defend everything he worked so hard achieve...basically what he saw was all he had accomplished in the OT and all he learned from the prequels thrown in his face and was going to be taken away and all for naught...and by a family member he was trusted with. It would be a completely devastating feeling that regardless of saving the galaxy, redeeming Vader, losing his aunt and uncle, going through the hardships of war and being thrusted into the role as Last Jedi and jedi master/teacher and taking his only nephew and losing him to the dark side and seeing what was going to come if he allowed Ben to continue...how could you say that he would be so casual and unconflicted by that moment...this would be utter devastation...people have worse thoughts when put through the ringer...Skywalkers are emotional...they/he has shown it in the past and is in line with his character and family history(imo). I can accept Luke's fall from grace and where he is at in life during TLJ, after the loss of it all he blamed himself then blamed the Jedi teachings(vanity).

Another fun thought I had for that moment was that this could of been Snoke manipulating what Luke was seeing in Ben so as to garner this exact reaction and woke Ben up while Luke was having this crisis...and the grand plan to turn Ben away from Luke and the Jedi was complete, that could of very well been the creshendo of the undoing of Ben Solo. We do not know what Ben's motivation was to be as powerful as Darth Vader but I don't need to see a 30 minute montage of the gap filler to draw a conclusion as to why Luke would show his emotion and let his feelings drive him....i mean he is a skywalker...its what they have shown to do.

What I could see happening too with the spin offs is a gap filler movie so the OT fans can finally see their godly Luke in all his glory.

 

[XX]

 

[johnjm22]

So The Last Jedi gets the Plinkett treatment. Typically reserved for the worst.

Mike makes a lot of good points. The script does feel like a first draft and much of it doesn't make sense. The TLJ outtakes are truly awful and some give some insight into the filmmaker's mentality.

Had the movie ended with its only logical conclusion (Rey joining Kylo) I would have forgiven many of it's flaws. Instead its just a mess of a film.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

"Why are First Order Officers mad tho"

Meh.

 

[XX]

The deleted scenes are prequel level bad. Watch it for those alone.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Had the movie ended with its only logical conclusion (Rey joining Kylo) I would have forgiven many of it's flaws. Instead its just a mess of a film.

But little children would have cried so Disney wouldn't do that even if you threatened to put all their executives in prison for 17 years.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

How is Rey joining Kylo the only logical conclusion?

Thanks RLM for dredging up this dead horse so it can be beaten some more.

 

[johnjm22]

How is Rey joining Kylo the only logical conclusion?

I would try and explain it myself, but this does a better job than I ever could. It takes awhile to get to the point, but bear with it:

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Come on, you should be able to make a succinct argument as to why that is the logical conclusion. I'm not looking for a dissertation.

 

[Pilky01]

But little children would have cried so Disney wouldn't do that even if you threatened to put all their executives in prison for 17 years.

Disney weren't afraid to let the Russo's BTFO of The Avengers and kill Spider-Man and Black Panther.

Studio meddling undoubtedly contributed to TLJ, but I think Johnson rightly deserves a huge portion of the blame. He prioritized being edgy and transgressive over pleasing audiences. And sure, that is commendable in some respects...he was handed the keys to a billion dollar franchise and took that opportunity to thumb his nose at convention, but that aspect alone doesn't make a movie good. I think its a pretty good theory of theirs, that Johnson actually made a goofy comedy movie.

I thought the movie was terrible and that Plunkett review checked off most of my main criticisms, and even the things I l liked. The potential that existed at the end of the throne room fight was real. I was hating the movie up until that point but when Kylo stuck his hand out I honestly thought "oh wow! they really are gonna do it! This movie is about to get interesting!"....but then a 45 minute coda sunk it all over again.

The comparison between Luke and Rey at the end of their respective pt 2's was great too. Luke left for dead on the bottom of cloud city contrasted with Rey's "Wooo! I'm liking this".

Loved the comparison between Picard and Holdo as well. Holdo's entire thematic arc was so obvious and stupid.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Disney weren't afraid to let the Russo's BTFO of The Avengers and kill Spider-Man and Black Panther.

Studio meddling undoubtedly contributed to TLJ, but I think Johnson rightly deserves a huge portion of the blame. He prioritized being edgy and transgressive over pleasing audiences. And sure, that is commendable in some respects...he was handed the keys to a billion dollar franchise and took that opportunity to thumb his nose at convention, but that aspect alone doesn't make a movie good. I think its a pretty good theory of theirs, that Johnson actually made a goofy comedy movie.

I thought the movie was terrible and that Plunkett review checked off most of my main criticisms, and even the things I l liked. The potential that existed at the end of the throne room fight was real. I was hating the movie up until that point but when Kylo stuck his hand out I honestly thought "oh wow! they really are gonna do it! This movie is about to get interesting!"....but then a 45 minute coda sunk it all over again.

The comparison between Luke and Rey at the end of their respective pt 2's was great too. Luke left for dead on the bottom of cloud city contrasted with Rey's "Wooo! I'm liking this".

Loved the comparison between Picard and Holdo as well. Holdo's entire thematic arc was so obvious and stupid.

It's different, Marvel has been fairly independent of Disney top brass, and everyone knows that these characters won't actually die (there's literally movies coming out about characters who are now "dead"). Star Wars has been controlled by Disney since the first day they bought them and they go out of their way not to take risks. Even the two "gritty" side projects did not take many chances.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Disney isn't taking any risks with Star wars, but they put a multi-billion dollar property in the hands of Rian Johnson which produced a movie that received a ton of hate from a lot of Star Wars fans for the fact it was considered too much of a deviation from the Star Wars mythos?

 

[XX]

Disney isn't taking any risks with Star wars, but they put a multi-billion dollar property in the hands of Rian Johnson which produced a movie that received a ton of hate from a lot of Star Wars fans for the fact it was considered too much of a deviation from the Star Wars mythos?

Not planning out a trilogy arc with some basic story beats is a risk, sure, but a stupid type of risk.

The rest of their decisions have been as milquetoast as they come.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Not planning out a trilogy arc with some basic story beats is a risk, sure, but a stupid type of risk.

The rest of their decisions have been as milquetoast as they come.

Yeah, the whole Luke arc was a super safe choice in particular. Especially since Mark Hamill was perfectly happy with how his character turned out.

What would have been a risk for you?

 

[johnjm22]

Come on, you should be able to make a succinct argument as to why that is the logical conclusion. I'm not looking for a dissertation.

I can't do succinct for this. Here goes...

The movie makes the case that there's something wrong with the good/evil dynamic of the Star Wars galaxy. The struggle between good and evil in the original films led to no progress because an equally fascistic entity (The First Order) has risen to take the place of The Empire; we're back to where we started.


Luke: "The legacy of the Jedi is failure. Hypocrisy, hubris. At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire, and wipe them out. It was a Jedi Master who was responsible for the training and creation of Darth Vader."

Luke: "This is the lesson. That force (the light) does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die, the light dies is vanity."

Luke: "Breathe. Just breathe. Now reach out. What do you see?"
Rey: "Light. Darkness. A balance."

Luke: "Balance. Powerful light, Powerful darkness."

Snoke: "Darkness rises and light to meet it. I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise."

DJ: "Good guys. Bad guys. Made up words....An arms dealer made his bank selling weapons to the bad guys and the 'good'."


According to TLJ, the force seeks balance. If true, than any powerful Jedi order would lead to the rise of an equally powerful dark side and vice versa. Thus the cycle of good verse evil continues and no progress is made.

Star Wars as we know it is kind of limited. It's a protagonist struggling with an inner conflict between good and evil, while a rag tag group of good guys fights a mega powerful fascist organization. If Rey defeats evil, well we've seen that before. If she turn to the dark side, we've seen that before as well, and if Johnson takes either one of those routes it all starts feeling repetitive. If you're trying to grow Star Wars, the logical place for it to go is by having our protagonist take a new path.


Kylo: "It's time to let old things die. The Sith, the Jedi, the rebels. Let it all die. Rey, I want you to join me."


Kylo isn't trying to get her to turn to the dark side. He's offering something new and different. The entire movie has been building towards this. These two characters joining is the most logical place for the story to go. When Rey rejects, the movie reverts back to the simple good/evil dynamic that the film has been criticizing.

One of the complaints I often see is that TLJ felt like it was spinning its wheels (it wasn't going anywhere). The above is the reason why.

An argument could be made that Rey's story is incomplete and maybe she'll find balance in the next film, but the opportunity was presented in this film, and the story was illogical and uncompelling with out it.

Despite all the movie's issues with tone and sloppy writing, had it actually stuck to the courage of its convictions and advanced our protagonist into something new it would have been a compelling story. I do wonder if Disney forced Rian Johnson's hand here and made him revert the movie making Luke a good guy hero again in attempt to satisfy fans.

Do you not think Rey joining Kylo would have been more interesting? The movie is already taking risks by subverting expectations, injecting moral ambiguity and trashing the Jedi. The movie should have followed through with it instead of getting cold feet.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Luke's testimony in the film isn't really framed as the "wise sage making great points." Luke is framed as a recluse because he made a mistake. He believed his own mythos and that in turn led to a domino effect that created Kylo Ren. After that he cut himself off from everything, and when Rey came he continued to push back at the idea of confronting the past and your fears. Rey wants to confront these things, which is why she goes into the cave and searches for answers about her parents. While the characteristics for light and dark certainly get blurred in the film, the underlying theme isn't about rejecting the dichotomy or ignoring the past. Kylo's immediate willingness to just fill the power vacuum in the FO speaks to the fact he wasn't reliable as an ally to move past and ignore everything, or provide anything Rey was looking for. Rey has no incentive to let her friends and allies die for the sake of being gray. Nothing in the film or her character even hints at the idea she could be willing to do that, so why would it be logical for her to just give up on all of them and do her own thing?

Also DJ's advice is meant to be the catalyst for Finn actually taking a side and fighting for what he believes in (which goes against what DJ was trying to tell him). It isn't meant to be utilized as an argument for the "gray".

 

[Bjorn Le]

Disney isn't taking any risks with Star wars, but they put a multi-billion dollar property in the hands of Rian Johnson which produced a movie that received a ton of hate from a lot of Star Wars fans for the fact it was considered too much of a deviation from the Star Wars mythos?

Disney has been pretty clear they don't give a bleep about your average hardcore Star Wars fan, which is where most of the non-racist criticism of the movie comes from. My parents are casual Star Wars fans and liked TLJ, a view shared by quite a few casual moviegoers unfortunately. I'm sure Disney views Rian's creative direction as a positive.

The movies have all been the opposite of risk. TFA was a ANH in a new skin, and TLJ was a stereotypical blockbuster with a Star Wars skin. They went for the most obvious and easiest way to make money, that's not a risk.

 

[Osprey]

He makes a good point about how unwise it is for the Imperial ship to fire its supercannon at the planetary base, trying to prevent the last transport from escaping, rather than firing at the Resistance cruiser that that transport is trying to escape to. If they would've destroyed or scared away the cruiser, instead, they could've captured that last transport, extracted intel from their captives and then recovered even more intel from the still intact base. Instead, the transport gets away, the cruiser gets away and they're left with a worthless, destroyed base.

BTW, for those who don't want to watch the whole thing, if you care to see glimpses of the some of the deleted scenes, they're at the 26:54 mark.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

If you are going to assert they don't care about alienating their fans, then you are asserting that they are taking a risk from the get go.

And you could probably call most any movie with big action sequences a "stereotypical blockbuster movie."