Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[ArGarBarGar]

I don't know why people think ROTJ is bad. It is certainly the weakest of the OT but the highs of that movie most definitely outshine the lows.

Maybe my problem is I actually like the Ewoks and like the idea of an indigenous jungle race helping defeat a galaxy power due to the fact they know their planet better than the enemy.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

I don't know why people think ROTJ is bad. It is certainly the weakest of the OT but the highs of that movie most definitely outshine the lows.

Maybe my problem is I actually like the Ewoks and like the idea of an indigenous jungle race helping defeat a galaxy power due to the fact they know their planet better than the enemy.

I liked the movie also but the original Ewoks were very intimidating and scary. They kid friendly'd them up so they could sell more toys. I think that is where some of the Ewok angst comes from.

 

[tacogeoff]

I don't know why people think ROTJ is bad. It is certainly the weakest of the OT but the highs of that movie most definitely outshine the lows.

Maybe my problem is I actually like the Ewoks and like the idea of an indigenous jungle race helping defeat a galaxy power due to the fact they know their planet better than the enemy.

Have to agree with you. It is just a really fun movie to watch.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

RotJ's problem is that as a movie it was poorly made

 

[Osprey]

I don't know why people think ROTJ is bad. It is certainly the weakest of the OT but the highs of that movie most definitely outshine the lows.

Maybe my problem is I actually like the Ewoks and like the idea of an indigenous jungle race helping defeat a galaxy power due to the fact they know their planet better than the enemy.

Have to agree with you. It is just a really fun movie to watch.

Finally, here's something about Star Wars that I completely agree with both of you on. I think that RotJ is the most entertaining of all of the Star Wars films, actually. It may not have the simplicity of the first film or the heavy themes of the second, but it's arguably more "fun" and satisfying, IMO, which you'd expect a final installment of a trilogy to deliver.

It's kind of funny that, for most of the 80s and early 90s, ESB was considered the weakest of the trilogy and RotJ was praised. As sentiment changed and ESB came to be appreciated as the strongest of the trilogy, RotJ started to be put down. I think that it really escalated when TPM came along and fans hated how Lucas so clearly was pandering to children with the Jar-Jar character and 8-year-old Anakin, came to recognize that he did something very similar with the Ewoks and started to dislike RotJ more for it.

RotJ's problem is that as a movie it was poorly made

I think that it's a very well made movie. Everything comes together well, it never drags, there aren't unnecessary scenes or things shoehorned in (unless you count the Special Edition) and it's entertaining from start to finish, which is what you want from a Summer blockbuster. I can understand not liking the Ewoks or considering it too much of a popcorn film for one's liking, but I don't understand suggestions that there's anything bad or poor about it.

 

[Blender]

I don't know why people think ROTJ is bad. It is certainly the weakest of the OT but the highs of that movie most definitely outshine the lows.

Maybe my problem is I actually like the Ewoks and like the idea of an indigenous jungle race helping defeat a galaxy power due to the fact they know their planet better than the enemy.

ROTJ isn't bad, but it's nowhere near as good as ANH or ESB. It's still on another level of any thing Star Wars which has been made since of course.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Always loved rotj. Ewoks never bothered me. They were not a high point but it was a minor quibble. Ep 4,5 and 6 were close to each others in my opinion. Nothing which has come after has matched it.

V
IV
VI
..
RO
TFA
..
Prequels
...
Tlj

*have not seen solo. I expect it to rank where tfa and ro are

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I don't know why people think ROTJ is bad. It is certainly the weakest of the OT but the highs of that movie most definitely outshine the lows.

Maybe my problem is I actually like the Ewoks and like the idea of an indigenous jungle race helping defeat a galaxy power due to the fact they know their planet better than the enemy.

Vietnam? I liked ROTJ as well and had the Ewok village set as a kid and it was awesome!

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I think that it's a very well made movie. Everything comes together well, it never drags, there aren't unnecessary scenes or things shoehorned in (unless you count the Special Edition) and it's entertaining from start to finish, which is what you want from a Summer blockbuster. I can understand not liking the Ewoks or considering it too much of a popcorn film for one's liking, but I don't understand suggestions that there's anything bad or poor about it.

I disagree completely

Tatooine was terribly written, why did Leia and Lando even need to be there? Why did they have to go to the Sarlacc pit to spring their trap on Jabba? It makes no sense, Luke could of easily died to the Rancor. Once we get to Endor it slows down to a crawl and just drags on. Did they have no communicators to contact the team? I don't disagree with an indigenous force overwhelming the Emperors most elite fighters but the Ewoks weren't a good choice for that, i've heard that originally it was going to be Wookies but since Chewie is shown to be advanced they thought, I guess, it wouldnt of had the same affect. Everybody's favorite, or second favorite, part is Luke on the Death Star but all that stuff is completely pointless to everything except to Lukes feelings which is almost irrelevant to the viewers. Like I said, as a movie its poorly made

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I disagree completely

Tatooine was terribly written, why did Leia and Lando even need to be there? Why did they have to go to the Sarlacc pit to spring their trap on Jabba? It makes no sense, Luke could of easily died to the Rancor. Once we get to Endor it slows down to a crawl and just drags on. Did they have no communicators to contact the team? I don't disagree with an indigenous force overwhelming the Emperors most elite fighters but the Ewoks weren't a good choice for that, i've heard that originally it was going to be Wookies but since Chewie is shown to be advanced they thought, I guess, it wouldnt of had the same affect. Everybody's favorite, or second favorite, part is Luke on the Death Star but all that stuff is completely pointless to everything except to Lukes feelings which is almost irrelevant to the viewers. Like I said, as a movie its poorly made

I cannot relate with anything you just wrote aside from maybe it being wookies instead of ewoks but even then, as you said, it wouldn't have had the same effect, they couldn't have been captured, won them over, etc.

Which is fine. You're 100% allowed to not have liked ROTJ. I thought it was awesome and it was a top 5 of my childhood.

 

[Blender]

I disagree completely

Tatooine was terribly written, why did Leia and Lando even need to be there? Why did they have to go to the Sarlacc pit to spring their trap on Jabba? It makes no sense, Luke could of easily died to the Rancor. Once we get to Endor it slows down to a crawl and just drags on. Did they have no communicators to contact the team? I don't disagree with an indigenous force overwhelming the Emperors most elite fighters but the Ewoks weren't a good choice for that, i've heard that originally it was going to be Wookies but since Chewie is shown to be advanced they thought, I guess, it wouldnt of had the same affect. Everybody's favorite, or second favorite, part is Luke on the Death Star but all that stuff is completely pointless to everything except to Lukes feelings which is almost irrelevant to the viewers. Like I said, as a movie its poorly made

I agree, I like the movie and as I said it's better than any other Star Wars since, but it's a flawed movie throughout. The special edition made it even worse as well with all the stupid changes.

 

[johnjm22]

ROTJ is a classic film that will long be remembered. It's a film that's ingrained itself in our pop culture. It has problems, but it's also filled with memorable moments and has some of the best stuff in the entire franchise.

I love Jabba and his vile little rat side kick thing. The stuff with Vader/Luke/Palpatine is great. The space battle is IMO the best special FX sequence ever put on film.

Say what you will about George Lucas, but he's very imaginative and his quirky vision is a big part of what makes SW great. His child like enthusiasim is present in ROTJ but still in check enough not to go too far like the prequels.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

ROTJ is a classic film that will long be remembered. It's a film that's ingrained itself in our pop culture. It has problems, but it's also filled with memorable moments and has some of the best stuff in the entire franchise.

I love Jabba and his vile little rat side kick thing. The stuff with Vader/Luke/Palpatine is great. The space battle is IMO the best special FX sequence ever put on film.

Say what you will about George Lucas, but he's very imaginative and his quirky vision is a big part of what makes SW great. His child like enthusiasim is present in ROTJ but still in check enough not to go too far like the prequels.

But none of that has anything to do with what I said, except that part you agreed with me on

 

[johnjm22]

But none of that has anything to do with what I said, except that part you agreed with me on

I'm not saying your criticism is invalid.

 

[RandV]

I've always thought RotJ was a matter of perspective. As a child when it came out, RotJ was the funnest/best Star Wars while ESB was the boring one (though still good). I always enjoyed anything Star Wars related growing up, but never really became a hardcore fan and probably haven't watched through the OT in 20-25 years. On the other hand, I'd imagine for people who were teens when ANH came out, or remained devout Star Wars fans through the 90's (growing up a bit), there's no doubt that ESB is the more mature Star Wars film.

So really it's just a matter of adult vs child for where you're currently formed your impression of the movies is.

 

[Osprey]

Tatooine was terribly written, why did Leia and Lando even need to be there? Why did they have to go to the Sarlacc pit to spring their trap on Jabba? It makes no sense, Luke could of easily died to the Rancor. Once we get to Endor it slows down to a crawl and just drags on. Did they have no communicators to contact the team? I don't disagree with an indigenous force overwhelming the Emperors most elite fighters but the Ewoks weren't a good choice for that, i've heard that originally it was going to be Wookies but since Chewie is shown to be advanced they thought, I guess, it wouldnt of had the same affect. Everybody's favorite, or second favorite, part is Luke on the Death Star but all that stuff is completely pointless to everything except to Lukes feelings which is almost irrelevant to the viewers. Like I said, as a movie its poorly made

Everyone was on Tatooine to rescue their friend, Han Solo. Maybe they all didn't "need" to be there, but it makes perfect sense for Han's best friends in the galaxy to want to be there to help rescue him.

As for waiting for the Sarlacc pit, that was the first time that R2D2 was in range to give Luke his lightsaber. Now, granted, it's a big question why R2D2 had it in the first place--my best guess is that, since Luke was trying to be diplomatic, he didn't want to walk in with a weapon (though concealing it probably would've been smarter)--but that's why the escape couldn't happen sooner. I agree that it's rather contrived in order to have Luke in a couple of dangerous situations (the Rancor and the Sarlacc pit), but I, personally, can forgive it because those scenes were so memorable.

As for having no communicators, this isn't Star Trek. Have you ever seen anything in Star Wars that resembles a cell phone or communication badge? That's part of the charm of Star Wars: that it's set in space, but the technology is actually pretty primitive, almost WWII era. The right hand often doesn't know what the left hand is doing and information takes a while to get around. That's a staple of Star Wars.

I love Jabba and his vile little rat side kick thing. The stuff with Vader/Luke/Palpatine is great. The space battle is IMO the best special FX sequence ever put on film.

You and I both know what our favorite part of the film is and it's none of those .

 

[WarriorOfGandhi]

I've always thought RotJ was a matter of perspective. As a child when it came out, RotJ was the funnest/best Star Wars while ESB was the boring one (though still good). I always enjoyed anything Star Wars related growing up, but never really became a hardcore fan and probably haven't watched through the OT in 20-25 years. On the other hand, I'd imagine for people who were teens when ANH came out, or remained devout Star Wars fans through the 90's (growing up a bit), there's no doubt that ESB is the more mature Star Wars film.

So really it's just a matter of adult vs child for where you're currently formed your impression of the movies is.

I totally agree

ROTJ was my favorite movie as a kid growing up in the 90s, primarily because of the big battle at the end. As I got older I realized the Ewoks are somewhat dumb and there's much greater depth in the first two. That's not to say that I dislike ROTJ; despite the aforementioned flaws it's tremendously enjoyable and is a satisfying conclusion to a great film trilogy.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I'm not saying your criticism is invalid.

Ok, thought your post was a counter to mine

Everyone was on Tatooine to rescue their friend, Han Solo. Maybe they all didn't "need" to be there, but it makes perfect sense for Han's best friends in the galaxy to want to be there to help rescue him.

As for waiting for the Sarlacc pit, that was the first time that R2D2 was in range to give Luke his lightsaber. Now, granted, it's a big question why R2D2 had it in the first place--my best guess is that, since Luke was trying to be diplomatic, he didn't want to walk in with a weapon (though concealing it probably would've been smarter)--but that's why the escape couldn't happen sooner. I agree that it's rather contrived in order to have Luke in a couple of dangerous situations (the Rancor and the Sarlacc pit), but I, personally, can forgive it because those scenes were so memorable.

I wasnt asking why the people would want to rescue Han, I understand those are his friends. Why was Lando a hidden guard? Why was Leia supposed to get caught? what did they serve? Luke was trying to be diplomatic? He stole a gun and tried to shoot Jabba with it. Are we to assume Luke KNEW they were going to be taken to the Sarlaac Pit? Like something out of Dumb and Dumber, "but what if they shot you in the palace". None of it makes sense, its like Lucas filmed himself playing with his Star Wars toys then adapted it to film. I mean, couldn't Luke and co going thru Jabbas Palace cutting bitches down be just as awesome?

As for having no communicators, this isn't Star Trek. Have you ever seen anything in Star Wars that resembles a cell phone or communication badge? That's part of the charm of Star Wars: that it's set in space, but the technology is actually pretty primitive, almost WWII era. The right hand often doesn't know what the left hand is doing and information takes a while to get around. That's a staple of Star Wars.

Not sure what to make of this, in pretty much every Star Wars movie there is communicating devices being used. ANH, ESB, TPM, AotC and RotS all off the top of my head. Disney ones im not so sure

 

[Blender]

As for waiting for the Sarlacc pit, that was the first time that R2D2 was in range to give Luke his lightsaber. Now, granted, it's a big question why R2D2 had it in the first place--my best guess is that, since Luke was trying to be diplomatic, he didn't want to walk in with a weapon (though concealing it probably would've been smarter)--but that's why the escape couldn't happen sooner. I agree that it's rather contrived in order to have Luke in a couple of dangerous situations (the Rancor and the Sarlacc pit), but I, personally, can forgive it because those scenes were so memorable.

R2-D2 is present in the throne room when Luke first enters before he is dropped into the Rancor cage.

As for having no communicators, this isn't Star Trek. Have you ever seen anything in Star Wars that resembles a cell phone or communication badge? That's part of the charm of Star Wars: that it's set in space, but the technology is actually pretty primitive, almost WWII era. The right hand often doesn't know what the left hand is doing and information takes a while to get around. That's a staple of Star Wars.

Small handheld communicators are all over the place in the prequel trilogy.

 

[RandV]

I wasnt asking why the people would want to rescue Han, I understand those are his friends. Why was Lando a hidden guard? Why was Leia supposed to get caught? what did they serve? Luke was trying to be diplomatic? He stole a gun and tried to shoot Jabba with it. Are we to assume Luke KNEW they were going to be taken to the Sarlaac Pit? Like something out of Dumb and Dumber, "but what if they shot you in the palace". None of it makes sense, its like Lucas filmed himself playing with his Star Wars toys then adapted it to film. I mean, couldn't Luke and co going thru Jabbas Palace cutting *****es down be just as awesome?

Yes with how it plays out for no apparent reason it seems like there are two completely separate rescue plans taking place: Leia+Chewie+Lando with a standard covert op infiltration vs Luke with droids pulling a more brazen Jedi mission. There's an untold piece of the story missing here to make it work, the only thing that makes sense is after they got back to the rebel fleet/base Luke had to split away from Leia (secret Jedi mission?) leaving her and Lando to come up with a rescue plan, then through the force Luke saw it going badly and had to step in.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Yes with how it plays out for no apparent reason it seems like there are two completely separate rescue plans taking place: Leia+Chewie+Lando with a standard covert op infiltration vs Luke with droids pulling a more brazen Jedi mission. There's an untold piece of the story missing here to make it work, the only thing that makes sense is after they got back to the rebel fleet/base Luke had to split away from Leia (secret Jedi mission?) leaving her and Lando to come up with a rescue plan, then through the force Luke saw it going badly and had to step in.

Hm? Their plan was to have Lando in as a guard to do nothing while Leia turns Chewie over to Jabba to be his prisoner, or to be executed, then in the middle of the night just take Han while leaving Chewie behind? It just doesnt make sense at any level

 

[Osprey]

I wasnt asking why the people would want to rescue Han, I understand those are his friends. Why was Lando a hidden guard? Why was Leia supposed to get caught? what did they serve? Luke was trying to be diplomatic? He stole a gun and tried to shoot Jabba with it. Are we to assume Luke KNEW they were going to be taken to the Sarlaac Pit? Like something out of Dumb and Dumber, "but what if they shot you in the palace". None of it makes sense, its like Lucas filmed himself playing with his Star Wars toys then adapted it to film. I mean, couldn't Luke and co going thru Jabbas Palace cutting *****es down be just as awesome?

Leia wasn't "supposed to get caught." She was sneaking around in the middle of the night and ruining Jabba's trophy because she didn't plan on getting caught. As for Lando, the first time that we see him undercover, it's watching Chewie being led away, and the second time is when Jabba asks for Han and Chewie to be brought before him, because he's the one who rushes out of the room to go get them. Evidently, he was undercover as Jabba's jail master, presumably so that he could free Chewie shortly after Leia thawed Han, but she was caught, so he stayed undercover.

As for Luke being diplomatic, yes, he was diplomatic twice before trying to kill Jabba. First, he sent the droids in to deliver his message and as a peace offering; then, in person, he gave Jabba one final chance to make a deal to avoid unpleasantness. As for why Lucas didn't just have him and his friends come in and cut the place up, there are two good reasons: 1) it's not in the Jedi or Luke's nature to just massacre others without trying a more diplomatic approach first, and 2) the utter failure of his plan shows us that Luke is fallible, a little too confident in his abilities, still has things to learn and isn't just a Gary Sue.

Not sure what to make of this, in pretty much every Star Wars movie there is communicating devices being used. ANH, ESB, TPM, AotC and RotS all off the top of my head. Disney ones im not so sure

OK, you're right. I forgot that, at the beginning of ESB, Luke talks with Han through a device on the sleeve of his coat. I was thinking that you meant "why didn't they communicate between the ships and the planet surface?" If you did, then I think that my point still stands, but if you were asking why the separate teams on the surface of Endor didn't have the same communicators that they had on Hoth, that's a fair question, though a bit of a nitpick, IMO. It could be explained by there being no array of "cell towers" on Endor like there could've been around the Rebel base on Hoth to relay transmissions, similar to how our cell phones wouldn't work in Antarctica.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Leia wasn't "supposed to get caught." She was sneaking around in the middle of the night and ruining Jabba's trophy because she didn't plan on getting caught. As for Lando, the first time that we see him undercover, it's watching Chewie being led away, and the second time is when Jabba asks for Han and Chewie to be brought before him, because he's the one who rushes out of the room to go get them. Evidently, he was undercover as Jabba's jail master, presumably so that he could free Chewie shortly after Leia thawed Han, but she was caught, so he stayed undercover.

As for Luke being diplomatic, yes, he was diplomatic twice before trying to kill Jabba. First, he sent the droids in to deliver his message and as a peace offering; then, in person, he gave Jabba one final chance to make a deal to avoid unpleasantness. As for why Lucas didn't just have him and his friends come in and cut the place up, there are two good reasons: 1) it's not in the Jedi or Luke's nature to just massacre others without trying a more diplomatic approach first, and 2) the utter failure of his plan shows us that Luke is fallible, a little too confident in his abilities, still has things to learn and isn't just a Gary Sue.

No. Luke sent R2 in with his lightsaber well before Leia goes in meaning that the plan was for Luke to come in and break them out. Being diplomatic is a little more than walking in unarmed. Luke demanded Jabba to give him everything, threatened him and then tried to murder him. His diplomatic peace offering of droids was really a covert way to for Luke to kill Jabba and all his men, hardly diplomatic. I doubt Lando was undercover as the jail master, im sure there is an actual jail master and Lando just cant drop in and take over

Your 2 good reasons dont really make sense. 1) Luke murdered 2 guards without saying a word to them moments before he saw Jabba, which btw is another weird part about Jabbas, Luke, especially if he had his lightsaber..., could of killed Bib and then Jabba right then and there. 2) Lukes plan wasnt a failure because his plan wasnt to shoot Jabba... for some reason his plan was to get the gang together in the middle of the desert and then fight a couple hundred people hence Luke giving his lightsaber for R2 to hold and his signal to fire it in the air later.

Not sure if Free Us or Die is the Jedi state motto

OK, you're right. I forgot that, at the beginning of ESB, Luke talks with Han through a device on the sleeve of his coat. I was thinking that you meant "why didn't they communicate between the ships and the planet surface?" If you did, then I think that my point still stands, but if you were asking why the separate teams on the surface of Endor didn't have the same communicators that they had on Hoth, that's a fair question, though a bit of a nitpick, IMO. It could be explained by there being no array of "cell towers" on Endor like there could've been around the Rebel base on Hoth to relay transmissions, similar to how our cell phones wouldn't work in Antarctica.

Yes I meant between the teams on Endor. I wouldn't call it nit picking either because it totally changes the story completely if this plot hole doesnt exist

 

[Osprey]

No. Luke sent R2 in with his lightsaber well before Leia goes in meaning that the plan was for Luke to come in and break them out. Being diplomatic is a little more than walking in unarmed. Luke demanded Jabba to give him everything, threatened him and then tried to murder him. His diplomatic peace offering of droids was really a covert way to for Luke to kill Jabba and all his men, hardly diplomatic.

This is arguing semantics. Luke said in his pre-recorded message that he sought an audience with Jabba to "bargain for Solo's life," hoping to reach an "arrangement that would be mutually beneficial." When Jabba refused, he forced himself in and declared that he was taking Solo, but still offered to allow Jabba "to profit" from it. The point is that Luke tried more than once to free Solo by striking a bargain and without bloodshed. I call that diplomacy, even if it's heavy handed. You can call it something else, but his attempts to free Solo by reaching an agreement and/or with as little bloodshed is why he did things the way that he did.

I doubt Lando was undercover as the jail master, im sure there is an actual jail master and Lando just cant drop in and take over

Ok, he was one of the jailer's men, then. You asked what he was doing there and that's it.

 

[Tawnos]

The thing about the Ewoks is that the final battle takes place during the best space battle in the whole series and the best Jedi/Force-related sequence in the whole series.

It really makes them easier to take.