Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Cole Caulifield]

I have 0 expectation for things that don't deserve high expectations. Star Wars is a popcorn flick and always has been. People expecting a great movie out of a franchise than NEVER produced one are setting themselves up for disappointement (ESB being to closest to one and yet, it is mostly a by-the-numbers tragic story).

Star Wars ranges from good to horrific, there is no "great" in there (if we talk about film making, not necessarily entertainment/cultural phenomenon). Star Wars ALWAYS has been by-the-numbers fantasy writing. ALWAYS!

You missed my point. You substituted the word masterpiece for the word great and used the same argument. I NEVER expected star wars to be "great" or a "masterpiece" NEVER!

I merely want it to reach the level it has previously reached (RotJ, ESB, ANH, TFA, Rogue One, Solo). Most people feel the same way. But you have distorted the situation as I previously explained by applying people's hate of TLJ to all the disney SW movies, and to everyone who feel this way. It's a bit silly.

TLJ tried to do more and ended up being too preachy. It was still entertaining enough and it had some heart.

You're the one who said that SW movies are paint by the numbers movies. Yet you're turning around and saying that TLJ tried to be more than that when it actually didn't. It was a popcorn flick like all other star wars movies, except it didn't feel like star wars. And it didn't follow thematically with TFA, nor with the original trilogy. It carelessly introduced elements which don't work in the setting (hyper spacing into other ships, the actual idea of fuel which suddenly became a thing in this movie). It was a bad star wars movie.

Most people's view on TLJ is of the "angry fan boy" variety.

That's an easy way to paint people whose opinion you don't understand with some dismissive qualifier in order to better be able to reconcile your own opinion of the movie with reality.

People rationalize their hate with points that look coherent to the untrained eye, but miss the mark for anyone who knows anything about cinema.

Wow... to the "untrained eye", "anyone who knows anything about cinema"...

Calm down Roger Ebert.

Oh, they have every right to hate it, but when I see some people saying Rey is too strong too quick when Luke was exactly the same (and yes, I have read the awful debates about that) or that Snoke was a token vilain when Palpatine, IN THE OT, was the same, I cannnot help but to face palm. People insist on VERY SMALL details to justify their feelings. Their feeling is legitimate, most of their complaints aren't. And, to be clear, I am not necessarily referring to HF.

The thing is that these small details taken by themselves are not why anyone hate the movie. It's the combination of all the small details RJ got wrong that make people hate the movie.

It's like I said about TFA. People loved TFA. It had a small flaw and that flaw was a lack of originality. But people were capable of getting past. They couldn't for TLJ because there was simply too much to hate about it and not enough to like.

From what I have read about TFA and TLJ, most complaints are because the movies aren't what they wanted them to be.

Guilty as charged. I wanted the movie to be good, and it sucked so I was very disappointed.

On its own, TLJ is a good popcorn flick. As a Star Wars film, I can understand some of the disappointment even though I personally like SOME of the risks RJ took (many decisions I didn't like, but that's just me).

I thought it was long, boring.
I thought the space chase premise was stupid, boring and didn't make sense.
I thought the humor was almost a complete miss and actually was done at such poor times that it detracted from the movie.
I thought that the canto blight scene was ridiculous, boring, pointless.
I didn't like the new characters which were introduced (Rose Tico, Admiral Holdo).
I hated what they did to Luke.
I hated that there was little continuity with TFA.

TLJ wasn't a trash movie, it was a movie that didn't meet the exagerate expectations of an IMMENSE fan base.

People didn't actually have exaggerated expectations. That's all in your head. People were perfectly happy with Rogue One, Solo, TFA. None of which were actually great movies, or masterpiece. So I have no idea where this hot take of people having exaggerated expectations is coming from but it really is almost purely in your head.

TLJ didn't hit the righ notes while a movie like Infinity Wars mostly did. That, I can agree with. Reading the TLJ has destroyed Star Wars or was an awful movie, it makes me laugh.

Exactly. I loved infinity wars. No one would call it a masterpiece, or great. But it did what it set out to do. TLJ did not. And that's why people who hate it hate it. Expecting the level of continuity within the franchise that Infinity Wars achieved is not asking for too much.

 

[tacogeoff]

As for your actual argument, CinemaScore isn't any better than any other site. It can have the most scientific method to get representative samples in the world, it remains stupid to rate a film when you come out of the theater without having had time to think about it and digest it. Right after I have seen a movie for the first time, I am in no position to have an actual intelligent opinion on a movie aside from a general overall feeling not based on rational arguments and reason. =.

You would of had to take time to process TLJ if someone asked you about the film just after watching it? it was a pretty simple movie.


You actually didn't have these feelings after immediately watching the film?

I thought it was long, boring.
I thought the space chase premise was stupid, boring and didn't make sense.
I thought the humor was almost a complete miss and actually was done at such poor times that it detracted from the movie.
I thought that the canto blight scene was ridiculous, boring, pointless.
I didn't like the new characters which were introduced (Rose Tico, Admiral Holdo).
I hated what they did to Luke.
I hated that there was little continuity with TFA.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

People weren't mostly "fine" with Rogue One and TFA (I haven't read about nor seen Solo), they bitched plenty. Not as much as TLJ, but they still did... ESPECIALLY TFA. People have warmed up to TFA after TLJ.

And yes, Star Wars has always been paint-by-the numbers epic storytelling (the OT, anyway, the PT tried to do WAY too much). Farm boy turned hero with hidden origins/great destiny (both in this case), saving the princess, fighting againt tyrants, redemption (hell, Anakin's entire arc is classic tragic hero 101)... I mean, you cannot go more "by-the-numbers" than that... and it is fine! That's why it works.

The magic of Star Wars never was its storytelling, it is the setting Lucas gave to a classic genre and how simple he kept things. The PT tried to be too complicated. RJ did a little bit of that too. What I think he did good was character development. You might not agree on how he did it with Luke, but he still did it and it made sense within the movie and, IMO, within the universe (that can be argued).

The smart thing Abrams did when he did TFA was go back to the basics (a little too much with all the fan service).

The reasons you disliked the movie have nothing to do with cinema itself... and that's fine! My main point is that TLJ, taken by itself, is a neatly directed (cinematography, character arcs, pacing in general, editing, music, special effects, most of the performances). The casino scene is indeed long, but it served a purpose in Finn's arc. It was preachy and not subtle, but it still served a purpose. I am not saying people should or shouldn't like it. I am just saying that to the trained-eye (and sorry if that sounded pedantic, that wasn't the goal), it is okay for what it is trying to be.

Now, me liking most of it to other people not liking it, that's a pointless debate. People are entitled to their own taste and I won't dispute that. What I am saying is that most of the backlash falls into the "angry fanboy" category. Not saying that's your case or anyone's in particular, but I have seen and heard many such complaints. (ex: saying "OMG OMG OMG THEY DESTROYED LUKE" without even trying to understand what RJ went for. You can dislike it, doesn't mean it "destroyed" the character and didn't fit with who he has been established to be; didn't fit your vision of him/you disliked the choice, ok fine... destroyed the character? It is hyperbole).

 

[Cole Caulifield]

You would of had to take time to process TLJ if someone asked you about the film just after watching it? it was a pretty simple movie.


You actually didn't have these feelings after immediately watching the film?

I thought it was long, boring.
I thought the space chase premise was stupid, boring and didn't make sense.
I thought the humor was almost a complete miss and actually was done at such poor times that it detracted from the movie.
I thought that the canto blight scene was ridiculous, boring, pointless.
I didn't like the new characters which were introduced (Rose Tico, Admiral Holdo).
I hated what they did to Luke.
I hated that there was little continuity with TFA.

Right after seeing a movie and it's midnight, my thoughts are generally occupied by physical/practical matters like :

-How I can get to my car as fast as possible to avoid being stuck in a file trying to leave the parking lot ?
-I am hungry and tired
-My bladder is full, can I wait until home or no ?


So no, I did not think those thoughts. I didn't really think anything.

But even if I watch a movie in the comfort of my home, at my own pace, I still don't instantly have a final opinion that cannot change right after having seen a movie. And when I don't like a movie, it's more of a feeling that... mmm something wasn't quite right here. But just a feeling, not a list of detailed grievances like the above. If you had quizzed me and asked me "did you like the humor in the movie?" I could have told you no without going into specifics. But if you had asked me specifically, why didn't you like the movie ? I wouldn't have been able to tell you right after I came out of the theater. If you can't do that, then what is your opinion worth really ?

Additionally, my understanding is that CinemaScores polls people on opening night and not after that. If that is so, then it means you just targeted the most hardcore fanbase of a movie. Those who are there on opening night often tend to be already sold on the movie.

 

[tacogeoff]

Right after seeing a movie and it's midnight, my thoughts are generally occupied by physical/practical matters like :

-How I can get to my car as fast as possible to avoid being stuck in a file trying to leave the parking lot ?
-I am hungry and tired
-My bladder is full, can I wait until home or no ?


So no, I did not think those thoughts. I didn't really think anything.

But even if I watch a movie in the comfort of my home, at my own pace, I still don't instantly have a final opinion that cannot change right after having seen a movie. And when I don't like a movie, it's more of a feeling that... mmm something wasn't quite right here. But just a feeling, not a list of detailed grievances like the above. If you had quizzed me and asked me "did you like the humor in the movie?" I could have told you no without going into specifics. But if you had asked me specifically, why didn't you like the movie ? I wouldn't have been able to tell you right after I came out of the theater. If you can't do that, then what is your opinion worth really ?

Additionally, my understanding is that CinemaScores polls people on opening night and not after that. If that is so, then it means you just targeted the most hardcore fanbase of a movie. Those who are there on opening night often tend to be already sold on the movie.

So you watched a movie that you adamantly dislike but it took you until you arrived at home and had time to think about it to formulate that conclusion? I find that very interesting as most would process that during the movie. To each their own I guess.... sounds like the force may have had you conflicted as to whether you were enjoying it or not while watching it. maybe have a good dinner and go to the earlier viewing next time

 

[MadDevil]

Do we really need two different threads to rehash the same tired TLJ arguments?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Do we really need two different threads to rehash the same tired TLJ arguments?

Us Star Wars fans need to rehash the same crap over and over and over again before we are satisfied. And maybe not even then.

I wonder what the discussion would be like if social media was as often used as it is now.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

So you watched a movie that you adamantly dislike but it took you until you arrived at home and had time to think about it to formulate that conclusion? I find that very interesting as most would process that during the movie. To each their own I guess.... sounds like the force may have had you conflicted as to whether you were enjoying it or not while watching it. maybe have a good dinner and go to the earlier viewing next time

I kind of see where you're trying to go with this but I still find your argument flimsy. Do you always instantly synthesize everything you see and have perfect recall ? You're probably a superior human. At least way better than me. All I know is that coming out of a theater, I am not in the right state of mind to give a proper evaluation of a movie. But maybe I'm the only human being in the universe who feels this way and CinemaScore is a 100% perfect representation of the entire's world's view of a movie.

But to be honest, I actually didn't see this movie in a theater. I saw it at home. I didn't like it. But I didn't instantly know why. All I'm saying though is that coming right out of a theater, you are still processing what you've just watched. It's not the best setting to poll people. You can disagree if you want. Please give me an argument as to why or drop this pointless line of enquiry.

Do we really need two different threads to rehash the same tired TLJ arguments?

Until there are more news regarding this latest "effort" does it really take away anything from your forum experience ?

 

[Osprey]

I expect people to ***** about IX for some stupid reason. The SW crowd is mostly unbearable and full of itself.

The fan base is "unbearable and full of itself" because so many do exactly what you're doing. They portray their opinion of the films as correct, misrepresent those who express a different opinion and imply that those people are "what's wrong" with the fan base. Remarks like yours contribute to the problem, to be honest.

So you watched a movie that you adamantly dislike but it took you until you arrived at home and had time to think about it to formulate that conclusion? I find that very interesting as most would process that during the movie. To each their own I guess.... sounds like the force may have had you conflicted as to whether you were enjoying it or not while watching it. maybe have a good dinner and go to the earlier viewing next time

I'm not going to speak for him, but I, personally, don't do much processing of new films while I'm watching them. I try to turn off my brain and not really think about what does or doesn't make sense. I don't want to get upset because that ruins the experience and I can't get too happy because I'm cynical and also too focused on following what's going on. I just soak everything in and don't think about the film critically or decide my feelings until afterward (on the ride back, hours later or even days later).

Remembering what I saw and listening to what others have to say often helps me to appreciate a film more or less. You might argue that it's wrong to downgrade your initial opinion once you've thought about it and read what others have had to say, but that isn't any different than upgrading your initial opinion because you learned to appreciate the film better, which seemingly no one has a problem with. Relatively deep films (like Best Picture nominees) tend to become more appreciated after reflection, whereas "popcorn" films tend to become less.

Do we really need two different threads to rehash the same tired TLJ arguments?

I don't think that policing discussion is the answer. Any thread about a single Star Wars film is going include discussion of other Star Wars films, since comparing them is so popular. That's why I made an argument a month or two ago to just have a general Star Wars thread.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

People weren't mostly "fine" with Rogue One and TFA (I haven't read about nor seen Solo), they *****ed plenty. Not as much as TLJ, but they still did... ESPECIALLY TFA. People have warmed up to TFA after TLJ.

I completely disagree with the above. People didn't warm up to TFA after TLJ that's nonsense, if anything it's the opposite because TLJ went against a lot of what happened in TFA. People loved TFA. Any metrics you can think of support this. Same with rogue one except a bit less.

 

[Shockmaster]

I never bought into Luke thinking, even for a split second, that Ben Solo as a confused teenager was incapable of being redeemed even after he redeemed his middle-aged father from 20 years of committing horrible and evil acts.

 

[tacogeoff]

I kind of see where you're trying to go with this but I still find your argument flimsy. Do you always instantly synthesize everything you see and have perfect recall ? You're probably a superior human. At least way better than me. All I know is that coming out of a theater, I am not in the right state of mind to give a proper evaluation of a movie.

All I'm saying though is that coming right out of a theater, you are still processing what you've just watched. It's not the best setting to poll people. You can disagree if you want. Please give me an argument as to why or drop this pointless line of enquiry.

I as well find your argument flimsy. It doesn't take a super human to process and analyse what they are seeing unfold in front of them and form a negative or positive opinion during a film. agree to not agree with your line of thinking.

 

[S E P H]

I hate movies that shove messages like "you are supposed to like the good guys."

Yup, especially considering how flawed and uninteresting majority of them have become by Disney. The highest rated Star Wars and one of the best movies of all time was Empire Strikes Back which was a dark anti-protagonist story.

Would you say Star Wars suffers from the standard the MCU established?

To me, that would be a very good point. The MCU changed the game when it comes to building a fantasy franchise. Star Wars was not able to follow.

Could be...how I see it is that Star Wars suffered from some pretty dreadful and very inconsistent writing. I don't know if that stupid woman who's the director of LucasArts is the reason why, but think about it....they promoted a film which was complete rehash of A New Hope and dropped the ball hard here with The Last Jedi. TLJ wasn't even interesting if you take away all the Star Wars aesthetics - it probably would've gotten worst off ratings if that's the case. I agree that TFA was a good popcorn flick which opened the sequence to this trilogy, but nothing after this has been good. It's like they hired a bunch of writers for the first film, fired them, and hired a bunch of new ones who had no clue about what happened in the first movie when they made TLJ.

I don't think every Star Wars movie has been dreadful by Disney, I've quite enjoyed the standalone movies like Solo and Rogue One. I just don't really have any more faith in Disney for turning around this franchise, not really because of Disney buying the rights, but who they employed at the heads for the films/LucasArts.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

People *****ed about TFA because it was too similar to ANH

People *****ed about TLJ because it was too much of a departure from traditional Star Wars

I don't think there's near as much overlap of these two groups as you presume.

JJ Abrams is the source of the problem. They need to expurgate him. The trilogy with Rian Johnson at the helm is a great new start.

 

[sigma six]

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The reasons you disliked the movie have nothing to do with cinema itself... and that's fine! My main point is that TLJ, taken by itself, is a neatly directed (cinematography, character arcs, pacing in general, editing, music, special effects, most of the performances). The casino scene is indeed long, but it served a purpose in Finn's arc. It was preachy and not subtle, but it still served a purpose. I am not saying people should or shouldn't like it. I am just saying that to the trained-eye (and sorry if that sounded pedantic, that wasn't the goal), it is okay for what it is trying to be.

Now, me liking most of it to other people not liking it, that's a pointless debate. People are entitled to their own taste and I won't dispute that. What I am saying is that most of the backlash falls into the "angry fanboy" category. Not saying that's your case or anyone's in particular, but I have seen and heard many such complaints. (ex: saying "OMG OMG OMG THEY DESTROYED LUKE" without even trying to understand what RJ went for. You can dislike it, doesn't mean it "destroyed" the character and didn't fit with who he has been established to be; didn't fit your vision of him/you disliked the choice, ok fine... destroyed the character? It is hyperbole).

1) I agree that TLJ is a better movie if just looked at on its own merits. However, since it is part of the Star Wars series, judging it independently of the other seven isn't possible.

2) The bolded is you projecting your frustration on how others view the film differently than you. And the notion that any opinion on the story/character choices is valid is absurd.

 

[WarriorOfGandhi]

it's funny, isn't it

if you had told me at age 9 that there would be a new Star Wars movie every year, I would have shit my pants in happiness

now I just wish I could wave a magic wand and make it so that Star Wars was only ever 3 movies in my parents' generation that never devolved into an increasingly mediocre cash cow

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Yup, especially considering how flawed and uninteresting majority of them have become by Disney. The highest rated Star Wars and one of the best movies of all time was Empire Strikes Back which was a dark anti-protagonist story.

What is an "anti-protagonist" story to you?

 

[Osprey]

it's funny, isn't it

if you had told me at age 9 that there would be a new Star Wars movie every year, I would have **** my pants in happiness

now I just wish I could wave a magic wand and make it so that Star Wars was only ever 3 movies in my parents' generation that never devolved into an increasingly mediocre cash cow

My life as a Star Wars fan... in emojis:

1977-83:
1984-89:
1990-96:
1997-98:
1999-05:
2006-11:
2012-14:
2015-18:

 

[johnjm22]

That's not even remotely true. It has an A CinemaScore. It also got a 2.82 multiplier off a massive opening weekend.

That doesn't really mean much. The most common CinemaScore given out is A range.

CinemaScore is highly flawed doesn't account for the "just watched" bias. The bias for highly anticipated films like TLJ is even stronger. The significant majority of films get high CinemaScore ratings including many disliked films.

The Phatom Menace had a 4.1 multiplier and a high CinemaScore.

It's fairly obvious that a lot of people who saw TLJ didn't like it.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I see this thread has already devolved into a shitshow.

 

[Shockmaster]

I see this thread has already devolved into a ****show.

16.5 more months to go!

 

[No Fun Shogun]

All I know is that I love what Disney has done with Star Wars to date but have grown completely disgusted with the toxicity of the fanbase (not talking about people that merely didn't like any or all of the movies, settle down), so to couple with my desire to keep everything as much of a surprise as possible this'll probably be the most I comment about the movie until the day I see it, other than eventually commenting on the title when that gets announced.

 

[Tawnos]

All I know is that I love what Disney has done with Star Wars to date but have grown completely disgusted with the toxicity of the fanbase (not talking about people that merely didn't like any or all of the movies, settle down), so to couple with my desire to keep everything as much of a surprise as possible this'll probably be the most I comment about the movie until the day I see it, other than eventually commenting on the title when that gets announced.

I like this post, but feel the need to quote it for emphasis.

 

[Osprey]

All I know is that I love what Disney has done with Star Wars to date but have grown completely disgusted with the toxicity of the fanbase (not talking about people that merely didn't like any or all of the movies, settle down), so to couple with my desire to keep everything as much of a surprise as possible this'll probably be the most I comment about the movie until the day I see it, other than eventually commenting on the title when that gets announced.

I can understand and admire staying away because the negativity gets to you and you want to stay positive, since that's a difference of opinion, but walking away in disgust over the behavior of others seems more like a judgment without consideration that your own interests may have as much to do with it. You can argue that a lot of people have an agenda to complain about what Disney has done with Star Wars, but it seems like you have your own "agenda" to enjoy it and be excited and hopeful for what's to come. That's perfectly fine, but I think that your "disgust" has as much to do with you not getting what you want out of the discussion as it does with how bad the other side is. I'm not saying that there isn't a toxic element to the fan base, but I think that your reaction to it is due as much to where you're coming from.