Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[CaptainCrunch67]

Its star wars, people forget that a lot of the nitty gritty details stuff in the Prequels and sequels weren't really answered in the movies, but in the books. and in comics, and in series like TCW and Rebels.

A lot of the answers in terms of what was the republic like, or how did the First Order become the first order and raise capital were/are being answered in the New EU books and series like resistance.

At the end of the day, the origins of Snoke being talked about in the movie were inconsequential, he was a dude that was powerful with the force, but at the end of the day he was there to die so that Ren could ascend, at that point, I stopped caring about Snoke, he just wasn't a great or deep character that needs exploration.

Even the questions of why there is a republic and a resistance were pretty much covered in the books.

That's just Star Wars. frankly shows like TCW and rebels, and certain books like the Order 66 trilogy of Labyrinth of Evil, ROTS and The rise of Darth Vader did a good job of filling in details for fans that wanted those details.

 

[x Tame Impala]

The New Republic was blown to hell in TFA. What was there left for Johnson to cover? Did we need a flashback covering the politics leading up to TFA? Shouldn't that have been set up by Abrams to begin with?

I get that people didn't like TLJ, but let's not act like Abrams set up these amazing storylines that Johnson just drove into the ditch. He took what Abrams set up and put his spin on where he thought it should go. Just because you disagree with where he went doesn't mean he just ignored what Abrams set up.

-Snoke
-Knights of Ren
-Luke’s Jedi Temple
-Interactions between Luke, Han, Leia, and Ben before, during, and after Kylo turned
-ANY backstory on what happened in between ROJ and TFA, particularly...

•how the republic went from defeating the empire in ROJ and having governmental control of the galaxy to 30ish years later allowing the First Order to rise and the Republic AGAIN reverting back to the plucky underdog with limited resources

Johnson had a TON to work with but he ultimately decided none of it was as important as his ridiculous bomber scene, his asinine space chase concept, Casino world, Leia not been vaporized in the vacuum of space, Rose ruining a perfectly stunning character arc for Fin, etc...

TFA has a plethora of its own problems (that I’d be more than happy to go into) but if it did one thing well, it was to give fans an exciting reintroduction into the Star Wars universe while leaving a lot of potential doors open for the trilogy. Rian instead took a big steaming dump on the chest of all of it.

Correct, the amazing lack of world building in this new trilogy cannot fall entirely on Rian Johnson but he had plenty of pathways to a well written, interesting, and entertaining sequel and he did nothing with any of it.

 

[x Tame Impala]

As far as world building, what kind of world were you wanting to build from TFA? Does every movie need to have tons and tons of world building (how much of that was in ESB) to be an enjoyable Star Wars movie?

How about some or any world building? We go from Return of the Jedi where the good guys win, defeat the emperor and end the reign of the Empire and then in TFA skip decades ahead to the good guys being plucky heroes hanging on by their fingernails while they allowed the First Order to rise and become a galactic super power. That stuff is important Argar. It isn’t nitpicky.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

How about some or any world building? We go from Return of the Jedi where the good guys win, defeat the emperor and end the reign of the Empire and then in TFA skip decades ahead to the good guys being plucky heroes hanging on by their fingernails while they allowed the First Order to rise and become a galactic super power. That stuff is important Argar. It isn’t nitpicky.

I didn't say it was nitpicky. I was saying explaining exactly how things failed politically doesn't necessarily need to be included for the movie to be enjoyable or good. And I was someone who wanted the series to start with the FO starting to grow and the main characters trying to oust it before it grew to be as big as it was in TFA.

 

[S E P H]

For even how bad TLJ was, it would've been a much more redeemable movie for me if Rey joined the Kylo and then have Finn return her to the light side of the force in episode IX. But no, every unique opportunity was destroyed by Johnson in his Godawful film.

That isn't to say Abrams film was better, rehashing A New Hope is just as bad as putting in some PETA "save CGI" animal trash on the casino planet. These films were doomed from the start with insane amount of Mary Sue and Deus ex Machina. I don't mind Rey as the main protagonist nor have no problem with a female Jedi, but her going toe-to-toe with Kylo in the first film is like a facepalm to the power of 100.

 

[RandV]

How about some or any world building? We go from Return of the Jedi where the good guys win, defeat the emperor and end the reign of the Empire and then in TFA skip decades ahead to the good guys being plucky heroes hanging on by their fingernails while they allowed the First Order to rise and become a galactic super power. That stuff is important Argar. It isn’t nitpicky.

This is kind of a timing thing, to still have Han, Luke, and Leia in it. All the 'interesting' stuff would have been happening in the years immediately following RotJ - Rebellion taking power as the New Republic with the Empire in retreat, Luke rebuilding the Jedi Order, and so on. This is what the EU books were initially built off of, but to make the new movies with the the old guard included we need the same passage of time so all those plot points were resolved off screen.

They could have still made something that worked to keep the die hards happy (and Star Wars will make money either way, but where they messed it up was a clear lack of direction at the top. The Disney exec lady starting with a guy who's main focus was on recreating the original magic but didn't have much of a greater vision on where to take it, then passing it off to a guy with even less vision who simply thought 'he wouldn't it be cool if we took Star Wars and just inverted everyone's expectations!'

Can anyone name a trilogy that shifted creative directions between movies and still worked out okay?

 

[alko]

OMG!!! Its already Number 9?!?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Can anyone name a trilogy that shifted creative directions between movies and still worked out okay?

Define creative direction, because I would say the creative direction between the three original movies shifted. Honestly I would say for a trilogy to work you almost have to shift the creative direction in some capacity.

 

[NyQuil]

For even how bad TLJ was, it would've been a much more redeemable movie for me if Rey joined the Kylo and then have Finn return her to the light side of the force in episode IX.

That would make Rey subservient to a man and then have to be saved by a man.

Rey is going to have to save Kylo instead.

But no one can live with the guilt of killing their own father so he'll have to sacrifice himself in some way - which is odd because there's no other antagonist in the series at this point.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

That would make Rey subservient to a man and then have to be saved by a man.

Rey is going to have to save Kylo instead.

But no one can live with the guilt of killing their own father so he'll have to sacrifice himself in some way - which is odd because there's no other antagonist in the series at this point.

Rey already tried to save him and it failed. Why would they go that route a second time with the same two characters?

 

[NyQuil]

Rey already tried to save him and it failed. Why would they go that route a second time with the same two characters?

I would be surprised if Kylo Ren was irredeemable at this point.

It's a movie for children, and he's wildly popular.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I would be surprised if Kylo Ren was irredeemable at this point.

It's a movie for children, and he's wildly popular.

So what if he is popular? What in the movie leads you to believe Rey will even try, let alone succeed in turning Kylo away from the dark side, especially since he has no interest in that dichotomy anyway?

 

[NyQuil]

So what if he is popular? What in the movie leads you to believe Rey will even try, let alone succeed in turning Kylo away from the dark side, especially since he has no interest in that dichotomy anyway?

I don't recall anything in the Empire Strikes Back indicating that Darth Vader was a sympathetic figure in any way either.

That arose in RoTJ.

It's a Disney movie - you'll see. Rey won't simply kill Kylo off.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I don't recall anything in the Empire Strikes Back indicating that Darth Vader was a sympathetic figure in any way either.

That arose in RoTJ.

It's a Disney movie - you'll see. Rey won't simply kill Kylo off.

What makes Kylo sympathetic enough to necessitate a redemption arc?

If anything, he ventures more on insane than he does sympathetic. To me that is what makes his character interesting. He is a psychotic fanboy who was radicalized by Snoke and was accidentally pushed over the edge by his mentor, leading to him murdering his father, slaughtering an entire village for no reason, and being so obsessed over murdering said mentor that he had dozens of AT-AT walkers shoot him where he stood. Adding in the outbursts and almost constant rage, I do not see a good story where Rey taps into some good part of Kylo and he is just a good guy, now. That would be boring to me.

 

[NyQuil]

If anything, he ventures more on insane than he does sympathetic. To me that is what makes his character interesting. He is a psychotic fanboy who was radicalized by Snoke and was accidentally pushed over the edge by his mentor, leading to him murdering his father, slaughtering an entire village for no reason, and being so obsessed over murdering said mentor that he had dozens of AT-AT walkers shoot him where he stood.

I mean, Darth Vader committed a host of atrocities and was also redeemed.

What is crucial is that the redeemed party can't continue to live because it would be a bit awkward for those who cared about his victims.

There's an argument to be made about the Dark Side being a corrupting influence, more like a disease or an infection.

Now if this series is still trying to move into some kind of "neutral force" direction, I'm not sure what the outcome is going to be. "The force isn't good or bad, just people" or some crap.

I will say that they have made Kylo a substantially more sympathetic character than Darth Vader was. He was almost killed by his teacher, Luke Skywalker. He felt abandoned by his parents. He was conflicted about Leia's presence on the ship. He saved Rey and was relatively courteous with respect to her throughout.

We didn't know anything about Darth Vader after two movies except that he killed Obi Wan, tortured Han, choked a Rebel soldier to death, murdered his underlings, and kept breaking his promises to Lando. His gesture of alliance with his son was about grasping power away from the Emperor.

Adding in the outbursts and almost constant rage, I do not see a good story where Rey taps into some good part of Kylo and he is just a good guy, now. That would be boring to me.

I don't see a good story either - but that doesn't preclude it from happening.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I mean, Darth Vader committed a host of atrocities and was also redeemed.

What is crucial is that the redeemed party can't continue to live because it would be a bit awkward for those who cared about his victims.

There's an argument to be made about the Dark Side being a corrupting influence.

Now if this series is still trying to move into some kind of "neutral force" direction, I'm not sure what the outcome is going to be. "The force isn't good or bad, just people" or some crap.



I don't see a good story either - but that doesn't preclude it from happening.

Do you think Dark Vader was unhinged and psychotic in the Original Trilogy? Considering at least we had a bit of exposition to tell us that once upon a time he was a good guy and a trusted friend to another beloved character, there was simply more there to accept a redemption arc. And even then the arc wasn't terribly deep.

I think in some occasions a fallen "good guy" cannot be redeemed. Considering we never truly saw Kylo Ren as a "good guy" anyway I don't see any way to compare his arc to Vader, here.

 

[NyQuil]

Do you think Dark Vader was unhinged and psychotic in the Original Trilogy?

He was calculating and wholly evil. At least, until RoTJ when the first cracks in the facade appear in the conversation at the landing platform on Endor.

But we're not there yet in this trilogy.

Considering at least we had a bit of exposition to tell us that once upon a time he was a good guy and a trusted friend to another beloved character, there was simply more there to accept a redemption arc. And even then the arc wasn't terribly deep.

There was exposition between Leia and Han about not raising him and that Snoke was a corrupting influence.

I'd say that was about as much as Ben's brief explanation in ANH.

I think in some occasions a fallen "good guy" cannot be redeemed. Considering we never truly saw Kylo Ren as a "good guy" anyway I don't see any way to compare his arc to Vader, here.

What an odd thing to say.

We never saw Darth Vader as a good guy either. At least Kylo Ren was conflicted and troubled. Darth Vader never was to the same extent through 2 films. He had no compunction about striking Ben Kenobi down.

I agree that a fallen "good guy" can't always be redeemed, but I'd be surprised if another attempt isn't made in the third film.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

There was exposition between Leia and Han about not raising him and that Snoke was a corrupting influence.

I'd say that was about as much as Ben's brief explanation in ANH.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement.

At the end of the day I think Rey trying to redeem Kylo Ren two times in a row is utterly idiotic. Clearly you don't.

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

The way I see it, I don't really want the whole redemption story, its kind of been done.

We know that Luke believed that the force is all about balance, to an extent Snoke believed this as well. So here are some scenarios.

1) Rey redeems Kylo and they take down what's left of the First Order and go off to start training another New Generation of Jedi
2) Rey confronts Kylo and he can't be redeemed, she taps into the dark side and uses that and the light side of the Force to defeat him and destroys the first order. Rey realizes that there can't be Jedi or Darkside users and she goes off as a super being and becomes like the father in TCW concerned only with keeping the Force Grey and balanced
3) Rey Confronts Kyle and falls to the darkside, Luke's ghost redeems her and she goes off to pay penance.
4) Kylo kills Rey and the movie ends in darkness (Really unlikely)
5) Rey faces Kylo and in the ultimate Force Brawl Luke's force ghost hits Kylo with a ghost chair. Snoke shows up and chokes Luke with his force belt. Rey defeats Kylo and Snoke and in the ultimate heel turn, Luke's Ghost turns on Rey setting up a cage match on a televised Star Wars PPV with an undercard of Chewie versus Finn, and Rose taking on Poe with the winner getting Finns heart.

 

[NyQuil]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement.

Now you're just arguing for the sake of argument.

"He was the best starpilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a good friend. Which reminds me, I have something here for you. You father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade like your father did."

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force."

That's it.

"Listen to me, will you? I know every time you... every time you look at me, you're reminded of him."

"You think I want to forget him? I want him back!"

"There was nothing we could've done. There was too much Vader in him."

"That's why I wanted him to train with Luke. I just never should have sent him away. That's when I lost him. That's when I lost you both."

"We both had to deal with it in our own way. I went back to the only thing I was ever good at."

"We both did."

"We lost our son, forever."

"No. It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the dark side. But we can still save him. Me. You."

"If Luke couldn't reach him, how could I?"

"Luke's a Jedi..you're his father. There's still light in him, I know it."

What's interesting in the comparison is that the concept of redemption is raised right from the very beginning, whereas in the original trilogy, it only comes up very late in RoTJ, when Luke is discussing the concept with Yoda and Ben on Dagobah.

There is nothing sympathetic about Vader, and rightly so, because otherwise his outing as Luke's father wouldn't have been as dramatic a blow.

The most villainous unsympathetic character in the trilogy turns out to be the protagonist's dad. It's only after that revelation that any kind of sympathy is directed his way, and the Emperor's profile is raised accordingly.

 

[NyQuil]

At the end of the day I think Rey trying to redeem Kylo Ren two times in a row is utterly idiotic. Clearly you don't.

Wrong, I also think Rey trying to redeem Kylo Ren two times in a row is utterly idiotic.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Wrong, I also think Rey trying to redeem Kylo Ren two times in a row is utterly idiotic.

So what, you think the people in charge are just incompetent?

That's an unfortunate perspective.

 

[NyQuil]

So what, you think the people in charge are just incompetent?

That's an unfortunate perspective.

I agree.

I could see there being the force ghosts of Anakin, Yoda, Leia and Luke there sort of beckoning for Kylo to be at peace or some such.

It would also be odd if there was no good in Kylo left because it would essentially mean that Leia was wrong and that she and Han failed utterly based on their conversation in the first film.

 

[NyQuil]

Here's a question - could you see Anakin Skywalker's rather gruesome end in Revenge of the Jedi being possible without knowing that he would end up redeeming himself at the end of Return of the Jedi?

I think it gave them a little more lattitude.

 

[John Price]

The ending to Revenge of the Sith was kind of weird. His whole reason for going to the Sith was to save Padme, who didn't survive anyway. So why would he keep Palpatine as a mentor. At the end you see them working together on the Death Star.

Anakin: "Where's Padme."

Palpatine: "You killed her"

Anakin. "Impossible. She didn't survive? Nooooo." Then he's still Sith