Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[ThePhoenixx]

I never argued she was a "social kind of gal", but that she has social interaction because she lives and works within a reasonable distance from civilization (and works within a populated area as well). Are you seriously arguing that the only person she ever talks to is Unkar Plutt?


What?


Rey isn't a hermit/isolationist.

You and I obviously differ on what is considered isolationist.

Agree to disagree then.

 

[Osprey]

Apparently the flight distance of a hundred meters or so is enough to completely invalidate the weapon's power. Nevermind that Kylo was doubled over after being hit, nevermind that he was bleeding, nevermind that he was clearly in pain before the fight with Finn

You're playing up how the bowcaster is so powerful that its shot sends people flying, but not addressing the fact that Kylo doesn't go flying when he's hit. That suggests to me that he doesn't receive nearly the full power of the blast, and the location that it hits provides a very plausible reason why. You haven't given a plausible reason yet why he suffered the full impact of the shot and didn't go flying or even get knocked back.

2. I did explain. You just don't like my explanation.

No, I wouldn't have said that if I just didn't like your explanation. Give me more credit than that. You really didn't explain your argument well, even though may've thought that you did. You did much better this second time, so I now know what you were getting at and how to answer.

A guy with the easiest opportunity to kill an opponent didn't because he believed he could flip her. He could have just frozen her again, he could've put her to sleep but he chose not to presumably because he wanted her to accept his offer on her own. Something he tried to do again in The Last Jedi. So a guy with a stab wound just under his left shoulder and a bowcaster shot to his lower body, in a moment of a lack of focus got parried off their sabre lock, put on guard before locking arms with Rey again. Rey got a bit of her lightsaber onto Kylo's foot, in the moment of pain Rey got the chance to slash up and cut Kylo's face non lethally. Or put more simply, injured and distracted guy got thrown off by a girl going aggro. Why is that so hard to believe? Is it canonically an unlikely scenario? Sure. But it doesn't, to me, stretch into some realm of impossibility. I mean more people get angry and angrier of a girl with at least some melee fighting experience taking advantage of a twice injured distracted foe with training than they are about someone creating a fully functioning apparition and projecting it lightyears across the galaxy. The scene was constructed to show that Rey got lucky and wouldn't have gotten away with it if not for tapping in the force. As I said above, Rey didn't do a single thing with the lightsaber that indicated any sort of mastery of the weapon. Of the lightsaber fights it's the most crude and unrefined style since A New Hope which had to be simplistic by technological limitations. And with all the extraordinary things done in this saga, this is the one that seems to piss people off the most.

The reason is that he's not an ordinary human. He's a trained fighter and Force master, capable of incredible feats, both physical and mental (no doubt including blocking out pain). He shouldn't be so incapacitated by a few setbacks that he loses to an amateur. Can you see that happening to Obi-Wan or Yoda? Even if they were missing limbs, they would likely be able to prevent anyone but another Force master from even approaching them. If Kylo were an ordinary, untrained person, yes, it'd be easy to believe that a few injuries and a lack of focus would explain losing to another ordinary, untrained person, but he's not one. That's your answer for why it's hard for some of us to believe.

 

[HanSolo]

HanSolo: I have read a lot of theories (or analysis) of the prequels and to me it seems the general point (which was somewhat backed up by Luke in TLJ) is that the way the Jedi Order did things was problematic because they were too focused on numbers and "this is your power level", and because of that was a very flawed organization with no emotion (leading them to lose the power of the force and be destroyed by the Sith in the process). If it had been written well it could have been a really great take and a great set of movies. But Lucas stumbled HARD out of the gate and never really recovered.

Ehh imo the bigger problem with the Jedi order (and Sith too for that matter) is the way they behaved as though positivity/honor/good and negativity/aggression/evil are mutually exclusive.

Jedi cannot feel fear, frustration, or romantic love without becoming a murderous force of evil. Force users in general cannot employ rage, aggression, or any dark side type power of any kind with succumbing to evil.

There's never any in between. Dark powers simply cannot be used for good purposes. The Jedi preach setting the Force into balance yet their definition of doing so is by excising half of what makes someone human and eliminating half of what comprises the force. That's not balance, that's dominance.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Ehh imo the bigger problem with the Jedi order (and Sith too for that matter) is the way they behaved as though positivity/honor/good and negativity/aggression/evil are mutually exclusive.

Jedi cannot feel fear, frustration, or romantic love without becoming a murderous force of evil. Force users in general cannot employ rage, aggression, or any dark side type power of any kind with succumbing to evil.

There's never any in between. Dark powers simply cannot be used for good purposes. The Jedi preach setting the Force into balance yet their definition of doing so is by excising half of what makes someone human and eliminating half of what comprises the force. That's not balance, that's dominance.

I would agree with you and say both are true.

 

[HanSolo]

I would agree with you and say both are true.

Yeah both are true, I'm not saying Lucas didn't bastardize the Force with the prequels at all. But, at the very least narratively it makes sense that the Jedi order failed, and Luke even called attention to their failings. The problem is sympomatic on people's attitudes on what the Force even is. Because people saw that being a Jedi in the days of the pre Empire Republic meant midichlorians and curriculum based jedi training, people now seem to equate Force usage as though it's an RPG stat and ignore everything revealed about it in Empire. As though more training/more experience equals a higher force power stat. Sure being more experience means being more capable and creative with the Force but it doesn't mean a lack of training equals complete inability to use it. Luke had, what, and hour of training with Obi Wan before using the force to land an otherwise impossible shot without a targeting computer and pulling the lightsaber out of the ice? Anakin had zero training before using the Force to handle a vehicle that no other human could pilot properly, as well as a starfighter.

 

[HanSolo]

You're playing up how the bowcaster is so powerful that its shot sends people flying, but not addressing the fact that Kylo doesn't go flying when he's hit. That suggests to me that he doesn't receive nearly the full power of the blast, and the location that it hits provides a very plausible reason why. You haven't given a plausible reason yet why he suffered the full impact of the shot and didn't go flying or even get knocked back.



No, I wouldn't have said that if I just didn't like your explanation. Give me more credit than that. You really didn't explain your argument well, even though may've thought that you did. You did much better this second time, so I now know what you were getting at and how to answer.



The reason is that he's not an ordinary human. He's a trained fighter and Force master, capable of incredible feats, both physical and mental (no doubt including blocking out pain). He shouldn't be so incapacitated by a few setbacks that he loses to an amateur. Can you see that happening to Obi-Wan or Yoda? Even if they were missing limbs, they would likely be able to prevent anyone but another Force master from even approaching them. If Kylo were an ordinary, untrained person, yes, it'd be easy to believe that a few injuries and a lack of focus would explain losing to another ordinary, untrained person, but he's not one. That's your answer for why it's hard for some of us to believe.

I'll bite again.

1. I'm assuming JJ believes that because Kylo is a Force user his body could handle the impact of the shot better. What's the alternative? He gets shot off the walkway to his death? He wrote himself into a corner but that doesn't change that the movie took special care to demonstrate the power of that weapon for a reason. It's a borderline Chekov gun device. And as though all that wasn't enough, they took special care to show he was still bleeding.

Chewie shot him from a balcony, not a mile away. You shoot someone with a regular gun from that kind of distance and it's going to do considerable damage.

It doesn't matter that he didn't take the full impact that others in the film had because the narrative distance between "not being sent flying" and "getting grazed" is pretty large.

2. pass

3. Yoda had hundreds of years of experience while Obi Wan had a couple of decades. That's not a fair comparison, but that's also another flaw of the prequels. Save for fighting Dooku and the Emperor, Obi Wan and Yoda respectively were shown to be virutally unstoppable machines whereas other jedi/sith counterparts weren't. Even a minimally untrained Luke got a slash on the shoulder of Vader in Empire.

But past that, again, Kylo in the moment that Rey turned the fight on him was unfocused in the erroneous belief that he had gotten Rey thinking about joining him. You keep saying I didn't explain why it's possible that he has a trained fighter got thrown off in that moment, but all the character evidence you need is in the fact that Kylo was no longer trying to kill Rey in that moment. All he had to do in the moment that Rey closed her eyes is kick her off the ledge, or break the saber lock to slash at her or stab her, or go for the head. Any number of things in that moment that a trained fighter would recognize as being handed a victory on a silver platter. There's a character reason that he doesn't. He got thrown off by Rey's pushback and when they lock each other by the wrists she got lucky again and gave him a third injury to his foot allowing her a second or two to slash at his face. It matters that he's injured because he wasn't at 100% thus making it easier for Rey to throw him off guard.

And that's also why it's important to mention that Kylo was dominating the fight for a majority of it. He relented when he tried to get her to side with him, went soft and Rey blitzed him. It was a hail Mary move that worked in her favor but it was hardly a fight where the underdog was impossibly on even footing with the better adversary the way say, the USA team was with the Soviets in 1980.

Like the way I interpret the scene is that in any fair fight where Rey gets no handicaps in her favor, Kylo would've won 10/10. And to me the conditions present were still tough for Rey, but for me plenty believable. But I don't look at the scene as though Kylo got a fair fight/remained focused the entire time.

 

[Osprey]

I'll bite again.

If you're implying that I'm driving this debate, I'd like to point out that I originally suggested only that Rey defeated someone in a lightsaber fight earlier than she should've been able to. You're the one who listed all of the reasons that you disagree, rehashing the debate. I'm less interested in having this debate than you seem to be. You're only eliciting responses from me because you're acting so incredulous that people have a different opinion than you.

It doesn't matter that he didn't take the full impact that others in the film had because the narrative distance between "not being sent flying" and "getting grazed" is pretty large.

I agree, and because we both agree that he wasn't sent flying and didn't take the full impact of the shot, pointing out that a full impact shot sends someone flying doesn't seem very relevant to me.

And that's also why it's important to mention that Kylo was dominating the fight for a majority of it. He relented when he tried to get her to side with him, went soft and Rey blitzed him. It was a hail Mary move that worked in her favor but it was hardly a fight where the underdog was impossibly on even footing with the better adversary the way say, the USA team was with the Soviets in 1980.

That's one of the things that don't seem believable, that she would be dominated so badly and then, suddenly, start dominating just as much against someone that she was not on even footing with. This isn't hockey. It's highly trained combat, where the better combatant nearly always wins. If you buy that a Hail Mary move explains it, that's fine, but some of us don't.

Like the way I interpret the scene is that in any fair fight where Rey gets no handicaps in her favor, Kylo would've won 10/10. And to me the conditions present were still tough for Rey, but for me plenty believable. But I don't look at the scene as though Kylo got a fair fight/remained focused the entire time.

That's perfectly fine. You interpret the scene as believable. Some of us don't. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

How exactly does midichlorians take away from the mysticism of the force

BTW Lukes shot to destroy the Death Star was about timing the shot, it made some weird turn because of bad graphics not because he used the force to do that

 

[HanSolo]

If you're implying that I'm driving this debate, I'd like to point out that I originally suggested only that Rey defeated someone in a lightsaber fight earlier than she should've been able to, and it was addressed to no one in particular. You're the one who had to respond and listed all of the reasons that you disagree, rehashing the debate. I'm less interested in having this debate than you seem to be. You're only eliciting responses from me because you're acting so incredulous that people have a different opinion than you.



I agree, and because we both agree that he wasn't sent flying and didn't take the full impact of the shot, pointing out that a full impact shot sends someone flying doesn't seem very relevant to me.



That's one of the things that don't seem believable, that she would be dominated so badly and then, suddenly, start dominating just as much against someone that she was not on even footing with. This isn't hockey. It's highly trained combat, where the better combatant nearly always wins. If you buy that a Hail Mary move explains it, that's fine, but some of us don't.



That's perfectly fine. You interpret the scene as believable. Some of us don't. We'll have to agree to disagree.

1. can't help myself. It's my nature to debate when challenged. I enjoy it to an extent but I've already said plenty. I am pretty tired of this but I also can't help myself.

2. It is relevant when we're discussing that being shot with such a powerful weapon is a catalyst in a disagreement on how serious the injury may have been. It may have not been immediately lethal, but we're very much at odds on whether or not it was injurious enough to keep him from being at full capacity.

3. but that's intentionally obfuscating the point that Kylo wasn't as engaged in the fight as he was prior. If an untrained fighter starts whaling on a trained fighter with sucker punches, there's a chance one of those punches lands on the nose and the untrained fighter has a window to get some good licks in before the trained fighter composes him/herself. Which is exactly what happened with Rey and Kylo. Kylo needed a moment to get his bearings and when he did they both locked each others wrists in place trying to get the physical upper hand. At that point the fight is merely a question of who is physically stronger. And the answer should still be Kylo. But in that moment it's a man with a bleeding gunshot wound somewhere in the abdomen and a stab wound in the right upper chest right under the shoulder. And even then Rey had to use all the physical strength she could to clip his foot with her own lightsaber to buy the window to get slash in on him.

This is why I rehash every bit of preset context JJ leaves prior to and during this fight because, at least to me, taken together they are factors that work in concert to have left Rey with a circumstance that would allow her to get the upper hand on a much more skilled adversary.

You're right. People are going to agree to disagree but in my view the only way I'd see that fight as ridiculous is if Kylo went into it uninjured and focused on winning the fight. Otherwise the result seems fine to me. Now, whether or not the result and the fight should have happened from a narrative perspective is another matter and one I really don't have a strong opinion on. Though I'd probably lean more towards the fight didn't have to happen and did primarily because they needed to sell and excite audiences on a return to Star Wars and there hasn't been a Star Wars movie yet without lightsabers clashing.

 

[Osprey]

How exactly does midichlorians take away from the mysticism of the force

Things are mystical and magical when you don't know how they work. They lose some or all of that feeling when the trick or science behind them become known. I'm not hugely bothered by midichlorians hater (mostly because I ignore the prequels), but I do feel that they were a mistake to invent.

BTW Lukes shot to destroy the Death Star was about timing the shot, it made some weird turn because of bad graphics not because he used the force to do that

I agree and was thinking about that the other day. Some people seem to make it out as a skillful use of the Force, as if Luke guided the torpedoes, altering their trajectory mid-flight, but he didn't. He used the Force only to know when to pull the trigger, like trusting your instincts. It was about the weakest use of the Force possible, so much that cynics like Han could've chalked it up to a placebo in which Luke really was just using his instincts and not some higher power.

1. can't help myself. It's my nature to debate when challenged. I enjoy it to an extent but I've already said plenty. I am pretty tired of this but I also can't help myself.

I completely understand, as I'm the same way. I'm just pointing out that this didn't start with me challenging you. You actually asked a question and I obliged you with an answer (that you challenged me on).

 

[HanSolo]

How exactly does midichlorians take away from the mysticism of the force

BTW Lukes shot to destroy the Death Star was about timing the shot, it made some weird turn because of bad graphics not because he used the force to do that

I thought it was because it was a vent.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Things are mystical and magical when you don't know how they work. They lose some or all of that feeling when the trick or science behind them become known. I'm not hugely bothered by midichlorians hater (mostly because I ignore the prequels), but I do feel that they were a mistake to invent.

My point being that midichlorians do not explain how the force works or shows any science behind the force

I thought it was because it was a vent.

It is vent, I dont follow

 

[HanSolo]

My point being that midichlorians do not explain how the force works or shows any science behind the force



It is vent, I dont follow

Idk. Couldn't it have sucked the torpedoes in if it was angled in properly?

 

[MadDevil]

Idk. Couldn't it have sucked the torpedoes in if it was angled in properly?

Why would an exhaust port suck them in?

I've never actually thought about the dynamics of that shot this much before.

 

[Osprey]

My point being that midichlorians do not explain how the force works or shows any science behind the force

If I'm not mistaken, they do explain why some people are more gifted in the Force than others. That does pull the curtain up slightly on the overall mystery.

Why would an exhaust port suck them in?

Maybe the proton torpedoes reacted with oxygen like a flame and they were sucked in because the vent led to an oxygen-rich environment... or something. I don't know. Regardless, the right angle that they make has always bothered me. I'm not sure that Lucas really even thought about it. He wanted there to be a trench and he wanted the torpedoes to go straight to the Death Star's core, so a right angle was a plot necessity, while giving a decent explanation for how the torpedoes realistically make it there wasn't.

 

[HanSolo]

If I'm not mistaken, they do explain why some people are more gifted in the Force than others. That does pull the curtain up slightly on the overall mystery.



Maybe the proton torpedoes reacted with oxygen like a flame and they were sucked in because the vent led to an oxygen-rich environment... or something. I don't know. Regardless, the right angle that they make has always bothered me. I'm not sure that Lucas really even thought about it. He wanted there to be a trench and he wanted the torpedoes to go straight to the Death Star's core, so a right angle was a plot necessity, while giving a decent explanation for how the torpedoes realistically make it there wasn't.

I mean in fairness it would be a little silly if anyone could use the Force. If that were the case everyone would. But, having midichlorians represent a biological manifestation of force sensitivity is bad enough. Having a higher quantity in your bloodstream representing how strong one is in the Force is even worse.

 

[Osprey]

I just read some pretty interesting quotes from Lucas from the time of the original trilogy:

The Force is really a way of seeing; it’s a way of being with life. It really has nothing to do with weapons. The Force gives you the power to have extra-sensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things. It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different. The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.

Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?
Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.
Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?
Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.
Marquand: They use it as a technique.
Lucas: Like Yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate.

So What the Heck Are Midi-Chlorians? | StarWars.com

According to those quotes and if we hold to Lucas' earliest descriptions of the Force, there's nothing wrong with the idea of Rey's parents being nobodies. It doesn't preclude her from becoming a Jedi, so that aspect of the new trilogy probably shouldn't bother us. It's only the fact that she clearly hasn't studied and worked hard at it for "many, many years" before using it that should still bother us. Now, how the midichlorians figure into this, I'm not sure, since they seem to me like they contradict Lucas' quotes above, but maybe he has some explanation that I haven't seen.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Are you familiar with "the death of the author"?

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

If I'm not mistaken, they do explain why some people are more gifted in the Force than others. That does pull the curtain up slightly on the overall mystery.

Yeah but explaining why someone is more naturally gifted with the force, like Luke or Rey who would use the force in everyday life without knowing it (Bane did this too if you ever read the Darth Bane books), is different than explaining the force itself

Thats like saying some people can run longer without getting tired because they have more red blood cells then the average person. Now does that statement explain oxygen? Does it mean that the person with more blood cells is guaranteed to be a better runner no matter what?

Also those Lucas quotes are useless. If we go by his early ideas then nothing makes sense

 

[Kaapo Cabana]

(Sees the Star Wars Ep IX thread bumped)

ME: "ooh there must be some new information out!"

It was then he f***ed up.

 

[sigma six]

I've never been keen on the midichlorians because I hate the idea that force potential needs some unit of measurement.

 

[HanSolo]

(Sees the Star Wars Ep IX thread bumped)

ME: "ooh there must be some new information out!"

It was then he ****ed up.

Might as well stick to reddit for that tbh.

 

[MadDevil]

(Sees the Star Wars Ep IX thread bumped)

ME: "ooh there must be some new information out!"

It was then he ****ed up.

There probably won't be much new info coming out until April, when Celebration (which is 5 days long this year) happens.

It's kind of weird, I'm actually more excited about The Clone Wars and The Mandalorian than I am Episode IX.

 

[NyQuil]

Why would an exhaust port suck them in?

I've never actually thought about the dynamics of that shot this much before.

That was Obi Wan Kenobi blowing them in with his Force Breath.

 

[MadDevil]

That was Obi Wan Kenobi blowing them in with his Force Breath.

Bullshit. I never saw a scene of him training to do that in the prequels. f***ing Gary Sue Kenobi.