Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[CaptainCrunch67]

Maybe not, but the Supremacy, Snoke's ship was the roaming capital of the first order and its main manufacturing facility.

The hyperspace ram not only destroyed that but most of their main fleet.

 

[Pilky01]

I would assume a military force that reigned supreme would have a home planet or two instead of carrying everyone around the galaxy in a giant mobile space home but you can’t really make assumptions like that anymore.

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

I would assume a military force that reigned supreme would have a home planet or two instead of carrying everyone around the galaxy in a giant mobile space home but you can’t really make assumptions like that anymore.

Star Wars Wiki and other sources say that it was the mobile command capital of the New Order, it contained ship yards, asteroid mining facilities, The First Order research labs, training facilities for Storm Troopers. It was a mobile capital crewed by 2.25 million fanatics.

At the end of TLJ the first order and the resistance were both crippled.

 

[Pilky01]

Star Wars Wiki and other sources say that it was the mobile command capital of the New Order, it contained ship yards, asteroid mining facilities, The First Order research labs, training facilities for Storm Troopers. It was a mobile capital crewed by 2.25 million fanatics.

At the end of TLJ the first order and the resistance were both crippled.

Weren't the first order crippled at the end of TFA as well though?

 

[x Tame Impala]

Anyone have any ideas for the plot of this movie? TLJ left us at a weird point. The Resistance is almost down to nothing, and the First Order has lost a lot of manpower as well.

In the most Mary Sue thing of this trilogy, Rey is going to teach her self how to be a Jedi because she has the books. It’ll be hilariously ironic too because then fans will say “See! She’s not a Mary Sue anymore. She read the books and is trained now”

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Star Wars Wiki and other sources say that it was the mobile command capital of the New Order, it contained ship yards, asteroid mining facilities, The First Order research labs, training facilities for Storm Troopers. It was a mobile capital crewed by 2.25 million fanatics.

At the end of TLJ the first order and the resistance were both crippled.

The First Order was able to seemingly easily deploy a gigantic battering ram, numerous AT-ATs, and Kylo Ren's ship. I saw that hyperspace ramming as seemingly just buying time and preventing the FO from dealing the final blow immediately. It was badass but also was limited in the amount of damage it actually did.

 

[Osprey]

In the most Mary Sue thing of this trilogy, Rey is going to teach her self how to be a Jedi because she has the books. It’ll be hilariously ironic too because then fans will say “See! She’s not a Mary Sue anymore. She read the books and is trained now”

That wouldn't be surprising. After all, it's not very politically correct for a woman to learn everything that she knows from a man. It was a necessary evil, for plot and fan service purposes, for Rey to receive a head start from Luke, but it could be made up for by her completing her training all on her own because she's just that smart and gifted. Add to that that there's been no indication that Leia has received any formal training--instead, we're led to assume that her powers come merely from genetics and a little practice--and the message is shaping up to be that females can learn and hone their Jedi powers practically by themselves, where males need years of mentoring and training. That's the common problem with trying to show that females can do everything that males can: people tend to give the females the abilities without putting much effort into making them seem earned or otherwise believable, so it just ends up appearing that everything comes more easily to them than to male characters.

Come to think of it, the likelihood that Rey will teach herself from the Jedi texts adds credence to the idea that a length of time will pass before the events of the third film. After all, Rey needs time to read those texts and practice. She's not going to speed read them over the weekend and emerge on Monday as a Jedi Knight. Then again, maybe I shouldn't put that past the writers. If she could raise a ton of boulders on minimal training and without even knowing that she could, it wouldn't be a stretch to imagine that she could absorb everything in a stack of textbooks in as little time as it takes to read them once.

 

[Outofbodyinhungary]

I wonder when they are going to announce the title, maybe super bowl with a 1 min teaser?

 

[NyQuil]

EPISODE IX

VINDICATION

Chaos reigns as the FIRST ORDER under newly installed EMPEROR KYLO REN works diligently to stamp out all opposition offered by THE RESISTANCE.

All across the galaxy, operatives led by GENERAL FINN and ADMIRAL POE challenge the incursions of legions of STORMTROOPERS by inspiring the people to rise up in opposition.

The FIRST ORDER attempts to neutralize all coordinated counter-attacks by the rebels through control of the galaxy's rapidly depleting stocks of HYPERFUEL.

But they do not realize that newly risen JEDI KNIGHT REY has returned from the far-reaches of the galaxy with a profound secret - one that will upend the balance of power for decades to come.

For only REY has come to understand the final lesson that JEDI MASTER LUKE SKYWALKER has taught her, that the GREEN MILK offered by the FEMALE THALA-SIRENS has the potential to power starships to speeds unseen before in the universe.

Armed with herds upon herds of SPACE CATTLE, REY returns to the core systems as the last hope for AGRICULTURAL MASTERY.

 

[WarriorOfGandhi]

Barney's movie had heart, but Episode IX: Herds of Space Cattle had herds of space cattle

 

[x Tame Impala]

The movie is probably going to fast forward 5 years or so and it’ll be used as a really bad excuse for character and plot development. I’m betting Rey will be a significantly better Jedi and that the First Order and Resistance will have their dwindling resources and power structure totally replenished. Then when people get confused/angry about the sloppy writing that brought us to this point in the film, apologists will just say “well a lot happened in five years and the writers didn’t have time to show it! Did you really want to see scenes where...blah blah blah blah blah”

It’s what TFA & TLJ did in spades do there’s no reason to assume otherwise

 

[HanSolo]

EPISODE IX

VINDICATION

Chaos reigns as the FIRST ORDER under newly installed EMPEROR KYLO REN works diligently to stamp out all opposition offered by THE RESISTANCE.

All across the galaxy, operatives led by GENERAL FINN and ADMIRAL POE challenge the incursions of legions of STORMTROOPERS by inspiring the people to rise up in opposition.

The FIRST ORDER attempts to neutralize all coordinated counter-attacks by the rebels through control of the galaxy's rapidly depleting stocks of HYPERFUEL.

But they do not realize that newly risen JEDI KNIGHT REY has returned from the far-reaches of the galaxy with a profound secret - one that will upend the balance of power for decades to come.

For only REY has come to understand the final lesson that JEDI MASTER LUKE SKYWALKER has taught her, that the GREEN MILK offered by the FEMALE THALA-SIRENS has the potential to power starships to speeds unseen before in the universe.

Armed with herds upon herds of SPACE CATTLE, REY returns to the core systems as the last hope for AGRICULTURAL MASTERY.

Okay, who's been smoking death sticks?

 

[HanSolo]

The movie is probably going to fast forward 5 years or so and it’ll be used as a really bad excuse for character and plot development. I’m betting Rey will be a significantly better Jedi and that the First Order and Resistance will have their dwindling resources and power structure totally replenished. Then when people get confused/angry about the sloppy writing that brought us to this point in the film, apologists will just say “well a lot happened in five years and the writers didn’t have time to show it! Did you really want to see scenes where...blah blah blah blah blah”

It’s what TFA & TLJ did in spades do there’s no reason to assume otherwise

TFA had a fair excuse. It left many story threads open for Rian Johnson to expand on and he took a shit all over the opportunity.

That's my biggest problem with TLJ. I did and still do defend TFA while recognizing it was far from perfect. It was supposed to be a primer to a grander story and Rian absolutely f***ed it. It's all well and good to subvert expectations and recoil from rehashing Empire, but so many of the story threads for the grand scope of the saga were left barren. It's like Rian and everyone approving his ideas forgot that 8 was supposed to be the middle chapter and constitute the meat of the story. Now episode 9 either lets the grander scope remain barren, or it tries to offer explanations in the conclusory chapter of a trilogy. Either way it's a messy spot for JJ to be in. The one single revelation offered by TLJ was Rey's parentage being a jabaited situation and to insist that "anyone can be a hero, we don't need to focus on the Skywalkers anymore. Which is fine, but it still leaves a story lacking context and scope.

As for Rey continuing to be too powerful, I still have an issue with those complaints. And I think it's a side effect of the prequels narrative, how Anakin was credibly a powerful jedi because of years and years of training plus a biologically measurable power cap. People complained to no end that midichlorians and seeing young jedi students learning how to use the force like they were in boarding school cheapened the mysticism of the Force. Luke had very little training relatively speaking to his father, and the training he got wasn't in skill development, but reaching out and letting the Force flow though him. We saw Luke sharpen his focus to land a near impossible shot with nothing more than Force voice urging from Obi Wan. In Empire we saw him pull the lightsaber out of the ice without having ever met Yoda or learned that from Obi Wan. In Jedi, he force chokes a guard at Jabba's Palace even though we never saw anyone teach him this, and there's no way Yoda taught him.

My point is, there's a point to what Luke was being taught if you think about his character. He was headstrong, impulsive, and excitable. Every instance we see him using the force is when he relaxes and focuses. Which is all Yoda and Obi Wan taught him, focusing to allow the force to flow him. Rey has very similar visual cues any time she does something with the force. This hang up that she should have had years of training to do anything Force related is a residual narrative failure of the Prequels, written by the guy who introduced the concept. In Rey's case, Kylo entering her mind got her started with accidental usages of the Force. The only real deliberate attempt to do something big with the Force was when she moved the rubble at the end of TLJ, and that was after lessons from Luke.

In this case I will ask, should the new trilogy really have featured 3 movies of Rey training with Luke until the last 30 minutes and she's actually ready to do something with it? I mean I suppose the easy answer is she should've just started as a Jedi from the beginning but that's not compelling either.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

TFA had a fair excuse. It left many story threads open for Rian Johnson to expand on and he took a **** all over the opportunity.

That's my biggest problem with TLJ. I did and still do defend TFA while recognizing it was far from perfect. It was supposed to be a primer to a grander story and Rian absolutely ****ed it. It's all well and good to subvert expectations and recoil from rehashing Empire, but so many of the story threads for the grand scope of the saga were left barren. It's like Rian and everyone approving his ideas forgot that 8 was supposed to be the middle chapter and constitute the meat of the story. Now episode 9 either lets the grander scope remain barren, or it tries to offer explanations in the conclusory chapter of a trilogy. Either way it's a messy spot for JJ to be in. The one single revelation offered by TLJ was Rey's parentage being a jabaited situation and to insist that "anyone can be a hero, we don't need to focus on the Skywalkers anymore. Which is fine, but it still leaves a story lacking context and scope.

As for Rey continuing to be too powerful, I still have an issue with those complaints. And I think it's a side effect of the prequels narrative, how Anakin was credibly a powerful jedi because of years and years of training plus a biologically measurable power cap. People complained to no end that midichlorians and seeing young jedi students learning how to use the force like they were in boarding school cheapened the mysticism of the Force. Luke had very little training relatively speaking to his father, and the training he got wasn't in skill development, but reaching out and letting the Force flow though him. We saw Luke sharpen his focus to land a near impossible shot with nothing more than Force voice urging from Obi Wan. In Empire we saw him pull the lightsaber out of the ice without having ever met Yoda or learned that from Obi Wan. In Jedi, he force chokes a guard at Jabba's Palace even though we never saw anyone teach him this, and there's no way Yoda taught him.

My point is, there's a point to what Luke was being taught if you think about his character. He was headstrong, impulsive, and excitable. Every instance we see him using the force is when he relaxes and focuses. Which is all Yoda and Obi Wan taught him, focusing to allow the force to flow him. Rey has very similar visual cues any time she does something with the force. This hang up that she should have had years of training to do anything Force related is a residual narrative failure of the Prequels, written by the guy who introduced the concept. In Rey's case, Kylo entering her mind got her started with accidental usages of the Force. The only real deliberate attempt to do something big with the Force was when she moved the rubble at the end of TLJ, and that was after lessons from Luke.

In this case I will ask, should the new trilogy really have featured 3 movies of Rey training with Luke until the last 30 minutes and she's actually ready to do something with it? I mean I suppose the easy answer is she should've just started as a Jedi from the beginning but that's not compelling either.

I've re-watched TFA two times. Still enjoy it.

Haven't gone back to TLJ. No desire to.

 

[Osprey]

In this case I will ask, should the new trilogy really have featured 3 movies of Rey training with Luke until the last 30 minutes and she's actually ready to do something with it? I mean I suppose the easy answer is she should've just started as a Jedi from the beginning but that's not compelling either.

The easy answer is that they could've done as the original trilogy did and incorporated the passage of time to make the hero's mastery of the Force seem gradual and believable. Four years passed between Luke first picking up a lightsaber and him defeating someone in a duel with it and making using the Force appear effortless. I'm not sure that even four days passed before Rey defeated someone in a duel and made the Force appear effortless. It would've been better if the writers had Rey able to do nothing at all or just the most trivial of tricks in the first film, had a couple of years pass, then had her able to do apprentice-level tricks in the second film, had another couple of years pass, then had her demonstrating a mastery of the Force. In addition to creating more believable character development, that would've contributed to a more epic feeling for the trilogy. Epics typically span years, not days.

 

[HanSolo]

I've re-watched TFA two times. Still enjoy it.

Haven't gone back to TLJ. No desire to.

I'm the same way. TFA may be heavy on callbacks and simplistic from a plot perspective but at least it feels like the same breath of air of the star wars movies I enjoy going back to.

There's some decent stuff going on in TLJ and visually it's a well made movie, but the refusal by Rian to expand on what he inherited makes me see the icon on my Netflix feed and my thought is "nah" every time. I'd rewatch Solo several times before I go back to TLJ. Luke tossing the lightsaber is an unintentional metaphor for what Rian decided to do with the story threads he inherited.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

I'm the same way. TFA may be heavy on callbacks and simplistic from a plot perspective but at least it feels like the same breath of air of the star wars movies I enjoy going back to.

There's some decent stuff going on in TLJ and visually it's a well made movie, but the refusal by Rian to expand on what he inherited makes me see the icon on my Netflix feed and my thought is "nah" every time. I'd rewatch Solo several times before I go back to TLJ. Luke tossing the lightsaber is an unintentional metaphor for what Rian decided to do with the story threads he inherited.

I know a few people, myself included, who liked Solo. It was just good popcorn fun.

Buddy of mine who is a huge SW fan just saw it and said it rejuvenated his love for SWars after TFA. Ya, some people really didn't like TFA. He skipped TLJ.

 

[HanSolo]

The easy answer is that they could've done as the original trilogy did and incorporated the passage of time to make the hero's mastery of the Force seem gradual and believable. Four years passed between Luke first picking up a lightsaber and him defeating someone in a duel with it and making using the Force appear effortless. I'm not sure that even four days passed before Rey defeated someone in a duel and made the Force appear effortless. It would've been better if the writers had Rey able to do nothing at all or just the most trivial of tricks in the first film, had a couple of years pass, then had her able to do apprentice-level tricks in the second film, had another couple of years pass, then had her demonstrating a mastery of the Force. In addition to creating more believable character development, that would've contributed to a more epic feeling for the trilogy. Epics typically span years, not days.

I really don't want to rehash the whole Rey v Kylo fight with a wall of text so I'll try to keep it short.

-Kylo was injured by a weapon shown multiple times through visual cues to be strong enough to send an ordinary human flying.
-Kylo just killed his dad and was unfocused.
-Kylo was visibly just toying with Finn who he wanted to make suffer for his defection until Finn got a lucky shot in. Not even 5 seconds pass from that point before Kylo ends the fight by dropping Finn.
-Rey spends almost the entirety of the fight either on the defensive or straight up running away from a heavily injured Kylo until she gets forced to the cliff's edge (it drives me insane that no one seems to acknowledge this)
-while on the cliff face Kylo is no longer concerned with hurting or killing Rey, he instead tries to get her on his side. I mean the whole time Rey has her eyes closed Kylo could have killed her at any moment.
-Rey focusing in on the force really only seemed to give her a little energy boost to break from Kylo and catch him off guard.


Other than that what did she do? Got lucky that she called on the force for a mind trick and shut the door on the Rathtars tentacles with precise timing (instinctual force use like this is the kind of thing that canonically made Luke a natural pilot)

Idk. You see it as making the force effortless, I see it as Rey's connection to the force being opened by Kylo and her just lucking into things like the mind trick and pulling the lightsaber out of the snow. Mind trick being comparable to the Death star shot and sword out of the snow being like well...sword out of the snow. Two things Luke wasn't trained how to do. We didn't see Luke as a "master" until RotJ. I see it the same way here. It's not like Rey escaped from captivity and went around mind tricking every stormtrooper around her. She still felt the need to physically hide to avoid recapture. She still let Kylo fling her into a tree because she had no training on how to stop it. She didn't freeze Kylo before he killed Han, an ability that Kylo had. I don't see a character that has even come close to force mastery. But it seems to me that people think the extent of her force sensitivity should've been being able to make silverware move a few inches to be believable. And again I think that's a narrative expectation symptom of Lucas' force mastery retconning in the prequels.

That being said, I wouldn't have minded if TLJ took place months or even years after TFA, or having a time jump after Rey met Luke. It starting ten minutes after the end of TFA did create some narrative restrictions.

 

[HanSolo]

I know a few people, myself included, who liked Solo. It was just good popcorn fun.

Buddy of mine who is a huge SW fan just saw it and said it rejuvenated his love for SWars after TFA. Ya, some people really didn't like TFA. He skipped TLJ.

I mean people are free to not like TFA but I always feel compelled to fight back against the ongoing narrative that it's unbelievable that Rey beat a trained force baddie in combat. If anything the movie is overly blunt in generating the context clues and conditions that allowed Rey to get the upper hand. It absolutely blows my mind that people stay so surface level on that aspect of the film that such simple context is so widely missed.

Also I agree in regards to Solo as well. There's some plot contrivances but overall it wasn't a very serious movie and on my second rewatch I had a really good time watching it. Alden may not really look or sound the part, but he did (in my opinion) capture the essence of Han or at least what a young Han might have been like. Never once in the movie am I ever jarred out of my immersion and made to think I'm not watching a pre OT Han Solo on his first adventure. Perhaps a movie experience I didn't need, but one that at least felt credible. (whereas in TLJ one of the worst parts besides story threads undeveloped, was Canto Bight as a clear moment of Writer/Director interference to inject sociopolitical commentary into a movie franchise that handled such things with far more subtlety. When I would see the Canto Bight scenes my immersion would be broken by the thought of "this is Rian talking, not Finn, Rose, and DJ)

 

[ThePhoenixx]

I mean people are free to not like TFA but I always feel compelled to fight back against the ongoing narrative that it's unbelievable that Rey beat a trained force baddie in combat. If anything the movie is overly blunt in generating the context clues and conditions that allowed Rey to get the upper hand. It absolutely blows my mind that people stay so surface level on that aspect of the film that such simple context is so widely missed.

Also I agree in regards to Solo as well. There's some plot contrivances but overall it wasn't a very serious movie and on my second rewatch I had a really good time watching it. Alden may not really look or sound the part, but he did (in my opinion) capture the essence of Han or at least what a young Han might have been like. Never once in the movie am I ever jarred out of my immersion and made to think I'm not watching a pre OT Han Solo on his first adventure. Perhaps a movie experience I didn't need, but one that at least felt credible.

IMO, she's a Mary Sue. I'm OK with that though. Other than the very last scene it didn't really ruin the movie. Ya, the pilot thing and her fixing his ship was a bit silly but it is Star Wars. I just kind of meh the end fight and move on. I can forgive that.

TLJ is a whole other worm though.

 

[johnjm22]

It's going to be very interesting to see what they do with episode 9.

Similar story beats to Return of The Jedi seem unavoidable. There's going to be a confrontation between Rey/Kylo (Vader/Luke), and there's going to be a climatic battle (Battle of Endor).

It will also be interesting to see how it does at the box office. Less than a billion would be a major blow to the franchise. I still think it will do over a billion personally.

 

[Osprey]

I really don't want to rehash the whole Rey v Kylo fight with a wall of text so I'll try to keep it short.

-Kylo was injured by a weapon shown multiple times through visual cues to be strong enough to send an ordinary human flying.
-Kylo just killed his dad and was unfocused.
-Kylo was visibly just toying with Finn who he wanted to make suffer for his defection until Finn got a lucky shot in. Not even 5 seconds pass from that point before Kylo ends the fight by dropping Finn.
-Rey spends almost the entirety of the fight either on the defensive or straight up running away from a heavily injured Kylo until she gets forced to the cliff's edge (it drives me insane that no one seems to acknowledge this)
-while on the cliff face Kylo is no longer concerned with hurting or killing Rey, he instead tries to get her on his side. I mean the whole time Rey has her eyes closed Kylo could have killed her at any moment.
-Rey focusing in on the force really only seemed to give her a little energy boost to break from Kylo and catch him off guard.

1) Kylo was merely grazed in the love handles by Chewie's bowcaster. None of his organs or major muscles were hit. It was likely only painful, and it's well known that adrenaline disguises pain. He certainly doesn't appear to be "heavily impaired" once the fight starts. I think that his injury is getting exaggerated to try to explain Rey's performance.
2) It can be argued that killing his dad required a lot of focus, but, regardless, it can be argued that Rey was also unfocused from watching an almost father figure be murdered in front of her and seeing her friend, Finn, perhaps dead in the snow.
3) I don't see how Kylo toying with Finn explains Rey defeating him. If anything, it suggests that Kylo was not too injured to toy with someone not on his skill level. After all, if his injury and lack of concentration excuse him losing to Rey, shouldn't Finn have done a lot better against him, himself?
4) Rey spending the majority of the fight on the defensive doesn't matter when the point is that she won in the end, not that she dominated him.
5) Similarly, I don't see that it matters that Kylo had the advantage at one point and didn't press it. If the implication is that he could've won if he wanted to, why didn't he do something about it when Rey was landing blows and forcing him to the ground?
6) Her Force use isn't the only element that makes the fight unbelievable. It's also her mastery of a lightsaber just days after picking one up for the first time.

What it comes down to is this: are we really to believe that someone who mastered the Force and lightsaber combat was so impaired by a relatively non-serious injury and a lack of focus that he could lose to someone who had never used a lightsaber before and didn't even realize that she could use the Force until the middle of the fight? So much for the once important franchise convention that Jedi and Sith masters are so powerful that they can only be stopped by another of their level. Apparently, now, all that it takes is for them to be in a little pain and have conflicted thoughts and an amateur can vanquish them. No wonder the Jedi are dying.

I mean people are free to not like TFA but I always feel compelled to fight back against the ongoing narrative that it's unbelievable that Rey beat a trained force baddie in combat. If anything the movie is overly blunt in generating the context clues and conditions that allowed Rey to get the upper hand. It absolutely blows my mind that people stay so surface level on that aspect of the film that such simple context is so widely missed.

It wouldn't blow your mind if you tried a little harder to understand the other side's argument. No one is "missing" the context that you feel is so important. We just don't feel that it adds up to make the outcome believable. The fact that it does add up to you doesn't mean that others are looking only at the surface level and missing context.

 

[HanSolo]

1) Kylo was merely grazed in the love handles by Chewie's bowcaster. None of his organs or major muscles were hit. It was likely only painful, and it's well known that adrenaline disguises pain. He certainly doesn't appear to be "heavily impaired" once the fight starts. I think that his injury is getting exaggerated to explain/excuse the outcome of the fight.
2) It can be argued that killing his dad required a lot of focus, but, regardless, it can be argued that Rey was also unfocused from watching an almost father figure be murdered in front of her and seeing her friend, Finn, perhaps dead in the snow.
3) I don't see how Kylo toying with Finn excuses Rey defeating him. If anything, it suggests that Kylo wasn't too injured to toy with someone not on his skill level. After all, if his injury and lack of concentration excuse him losing to Rey, shouldn't Finn have done a lot better against him, himself?
4) Rey spending the majority of the fight on the defensive doesn't matter. What matters is that she won in the end.
5) Similarly, it doesn't really matter that Kylo had the advantage at one point and didn't press it.
6) Her Force use isn't the only element that makes the fight unbelievable. It's also her mastery of a lightsaber just days after picking one up for the first time.

What it comes down to is this: are we really to believe that someone who mastered the Force and lightsaber combat was so impaired by a relatively non-serious injury and a lack of focus that he could lose to someone who had never used a lightsaber before and didn't even realize that she could use the Force until the middle of the fight? So much for the once important franchise convention that Jedi and Sith masters are so powerful that they can only be stopped by another of their level. Apparently, now, all that it takes is for them to be in a little pain and have conflicted thoughts and an amateur can vanquish them.



It wouldn't blow your mind if you tried a little harder to understand the other side's argument. No one is "missing" the context that you feel is so important. We just don't feel that it adds up to make the outcome believable. The fact that it does add up to you doesn't mean that others are looking only at the surface level and missing context that's obvious to you.

He wasn't shot with a regular blaster. Just because he was up and walking around doesn't mean the injury wasn't serious. You lecture me about me about failing to see that people could see what I saw in regards to the bowcaster blast yet in doing so you are proving my point. Everyone else hit with the crossbow was literally sent flying like they were hit with a cannon, and they showed Kylo was in pain and bleeding before the fight. Kylo may have stronger constitution than an average stormtrooper or galactic gangster, but getting hit with that thing is a serious point in the movie. JJ demonstrated its power on numerous occasions from bodies being sent flying, to it causing an explosion, to Han stopping to remark at how incredible the weapon is. If anything the issue should be that JJ was beating the viewer over the head about how powerful the gun is but I guess new girl beats Vader's grandson is so unacceptable that people don't even notice.

I brought up Finn because Finn got a stab into Kylo's upper body as a result of Kylo f***ing with him. People also complain that Finn lasted too long against Kylo when again it was obvious by body language and fighting decisions that Kylo was essentially playing with his food until Finn got his lucky jab. Once he did, Kylo ended the fight with his next move.

By the time Kylo starts fighting with Rey he already has two significant injuries (unless you want to tell me getting a laser stab right below your shoulder is a little boo boo). And despite this he was dominating the fight, lost his focus because he thought he could convince Rey to let him be her "teacher" and she took advantage and downed him. Him dominating the majority of the fight is not irrelevant no matter how much you want it to be. All Kylo had to do was break the saber lock on the cliff edge and choose any means of stabbing/slashing Rey or simply pushing her to finish her off. He didn't and Rey got a fortuitous burst of energy that caught her opponent off guard. And on that note, what is it you think Rey even did with the Force in that moment? She didn't send him flying with a force push, she didn't conjure lightning, she didn't choke him out. All letting the force in did is give her what amounts to an adrenaline boost and maybe a little focus in getting the right slash in across Kylo's face.

People want to hang to this narrative that it's ridiculous that a trained force user lost to one who wasn't, and I'll grant you perhaps all that context JJ filled the movie with was for the pure purpose of having his dream end movie saber battle with the new girl coming out on top. But plot convenience or not, the context was written in to allow it to happen and people refuse to accept it for what it is because all they want to remember is the one sentence plot point: "Kylo Ren lost to a girl completely untrained with a lightsaber/the force"

Edit: also that was hardly lightsaber mastery. She knew how to block an attack but beyond that her fighting style was very crude and focused primarily on random thrusts. This might be the nerdiest thing I appeal to, but nobody save for Palpatine employed such a style with a lightsaber and when he did it, you could tell they were deliberately done to challenge his assailants in episode 3. I know nobody likes to hear that Rey had training with a staff, but if that was a method of survival for her, I don't see why it's such a stretch that she can fathom the concept of using a melee weapon to block a strike from another melee weapon. Just because she didn't get her head lopped off while Kylo was savagely attacking her doesn't mean she's mastered a lightsaber.

 

[Osprey]

He wasn't shot with a regular blaster. Just because he was up and walking around doesn't mean the injury wasn't serious. You lecture me about me about failing to see that people could see what I saw in regards to the bowcaster blast yet in doing so you are proving my point. Everyone else hit with the crossbow was literally sent flying like they were hit with a cannon, and they showed Kylo was in pain and bleeding before the fight. Kylo may have stronger constitution than an average stormtrooper or galactic gangster, but getting hit with that thing is a serious point in the movie. JJ demonstrated its power on numerous occasions from bodies being sent flying, to it causing an explosion, to Han stopping to remark at how incredible the weapon is. If anything the issue should be that JJ was beating the viewer over the head about how powerful the gun is but I guess new girl beats Vader's grandson is so unacceptable that people don't even notice.

As I said, the bowcaster shot only grazed his love handle. He didn't take nearly the full power of the shot, so, naturally, he wasn't sent flying.

By the time Kylo starts fighting with Rey he already has two significant injuries (unless you want to tell me getting a laser stab right below your shoulder is a little boo boo). And despite this he was dominating the fight, lost his focus because he thought he could convince Rey to let him be her "teacher" and she took advantage and downed him. Him dominating the majority of the fight is not irrelevant no matter how much you want it to be. All Kylo had to do was break the sabre lock on the cliff edge and choose any means of stabbing/slashing Rey or simply pushing her to finish her off. He didn't and Rey got a fortuitous burst of energy that caught her opponent off guard.

You're just reciting the scene without explaining why it's believable.

And on that note, what is it you think Rey even did with the Force in that moment? She didn't send him flying with a force push, she didn't conjure lightning, she didn't choke him out. All letting the force in did is give her what amounts to an adrenaline boost and maybe a little focus in getting the right slash in across Kylo's face.

I haven't addressed her Force use in that moment at all, so I'm not sure why you're asking.

People want to hang to this narrative that it's ridiculous that a trained force user lost to one who wasn't, and I'll grant you perhaps all that context JJ filled the movie with was for the pure purpose of having his dream end movie sabre battle with the new girl coming out on top. But plot convenience or not, the context was written in to allow it to happen and people refuse to accept it for what it is because all they want to remember is the one sentence plot point: "Kylo Ren lost to a girl completely untrained with a lightsaber/the force"

By whose judgment does the context allow it to happen, yours and Abrams? I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand that some of us disagree that the writing believably justifies itself. That fact that something is explained doesn't mean that we have to just accept the explanation. You suggest that I'm lecturing you, but you're the one here lecturing us on what we're missing. You're acting like your opinion is fact that we simply "refuse to accept" and you're disparaging our opinion by pretending that it's motivated by an agenda.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

I really don't want to rehash the whole Rey v Kylo fight with a wall of text so I'll try to keep it short.

-Kylo was injured by a weapon shown multiple times through visual cues to be strong enough to send an ordinary human flying.
-Kylo just killed his dad and was unfocused.
-Kylo was visibly just toying with Finn who he wanted to make suffer for his defection until Finn got a lucky shot in. Not even 5 seconds pass from that point before Kylo ends the fight by dropping Finn.
-Rey spends almost the entirety of the fight either on the defensive or straight up running away from a heavily injured Kylo until she gets forced to the cliff's edge (it drives me insane that no one seems to acknowledge this)
-while on the cliff face Kylo is no longer concerned with hurting or killing Rey, he instead tries to get her on his side. I mean the whole time Rey has her eyes closed Kylo could have killed her at any moment.
-Rey focusing in on the force really only seemed to give her a little energy boost to break from Kylo and catch him off guard.


Other than that what did she do? Got lucky that she called on the force for a mind trick and shut the door on the Rathtars tentacles with precise timing (instinctual force use like this is the kind of thing that canonically made Luke a natural pilot)

Idk. You see it as making the force effortless, I see it as Rey's connection to the force being opened by Kylo and her just lucking into things like the mind trick and pulling the lightsaber out of the snow. Mind trick being comparable to the Death star shot and sword out of the snow being like well...sword out of the snow. Two things Luke wasn't trained how to do. We didn't see Luke as a "master" until RotJ. I see it the same way here. It's not like Rey escaped from captivity and went around mind tricking every stormtrooper around her. She still felt the need to physically hide to avoid recapture. She still let Kylo fling her into a tree because she had no training on how to stop it. She didn't freeze Kylo before he killed Han, an ability that Kylo had. I don't see a character that has even come close to force mastery. But it seems to me that people think the extent of her force sensitivity should've been being able to make silverware move a few inches to be believable. And again I think that's a narrative expectation symptom of Lucas' force mastery retconning in the prequels.

That being said, I wouldn't have minded if TLJ took place months or even years after TFA, or having a time jump after Rey met Luke. It starting ten minutes after the end of TFA did create some narrative restrictions.

It doesen't make sense from a canon standpoint that some Peasent who's never held a lightsabre before should be able to best a trained Jedi/sith/force user even of they are inflicted with a minor injury. We all know this because we've seen countless examples of neophyte force users having their way with lesser force users and non force users.

From a movie making prospective you're doing yourself absolutley no favours by having your protagonist match up with and nearly defeat your antagonist in the first movie of what's supposed to be a trilogy/series.

How am I supposed to feel for and connect with your protagonist, who is shown to be immediately as powerful as your stories antagonist, when you give them a background and story that completely contradicts what your showing me.

Rey's never held a ls before, shes never been trained in the force, she has no idea that she is a latent force user. Hell, your own story says the force and the Jedi are skme bullshit myth now that people have to be told are real, even though they've been around and at the heights of politics and news for eons by this point.

Luke never bested DV in ANH, he got his ass and hand handed to him by DS in ESB. Luke got stronger but was not able to fully beat the dark side on his own in RTJ, and had to rely on the Emperor's hubris and DV's change of heart to win.