Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker - II

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bleedblue1223

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Or people just like the movie.

My point was that this movie was going to be divisive, regardless of what story they went with to end it.
That's why I called it a bold prediction. I could easily see a scenario where people that liked TLJ don't like how JJ followed Rian's film. I'm also not critiquing people that like anything Star Wars, just saying that's a segment of the fandom, and there's nothing wrong with that. I didn't call them shills or anything insulting.

The film doesn't have to be divisive. It would be a challenge, but there are ways for it to be very well received throughout the fandom.
 

OhCaptainMyCaptain

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That's why I called it a bold prediction. I could easily see a scenario where people that liked TLJ don't like how JJ followed Rian's film. I'm also not critiquing people that like anything Star Wars, just saying that's a segment of the fandom, and there's nothing wrong with that. I didn't call them shills or anything insulting.

The film doesn't have to be divisive. It would be a challenge, but there are ways for it to be very well received throughout the fandom.

Nah, I really don't think there was. This movie was bound to be divisive after how TLJ was received. Doesn't matter where they went with it. If they went with a more safe route, then people would have complained. If they went a different route, people would have complained. If they met in the middle, people would have complained. TLJ divided the fanbase so much that this film was undoubtedly going to be divisive no matter where they went with it. I am not sure that is even really debatable.
 

bleedblue1223

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Nah, I really don't think there was. This movie was bound to be divisive after how TLJ was received. Doesn't matter where they went with it. If they went with a more safe route, then people would have complained. If they went a different route, people would have complained. If they met in the middle, people would have complained. TLJ divided the fanbase so much that this film was undoubtedly going to be divisive no matter where they went with it. I am not sure that is even really debatable.
Depends on the issues people had. How many of the issues in TLJ inherently carry over to TLJ?

Rey for one will have many of her complaints solved with a time jump, jedi texts, and communicating with force ghosts. Sure, some might still complain depending on how it's done, but JJ can easily do 9 without her seeming like a Mary Sue to the group in the fandom that had that complaint.

JJ's big challenge is how is Palpatine done because that's the piece that if done wrong will make it an even more divisive film than TLJ.
 

Shockmaster

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What clique though? People that didn't like the PT or the people that didn't like Rey using the force like she has been?

That's fair to an extent. I think a simple time jump and longer time with Luke would've prevented a lot of the Mary Sue talk.

I was referring to those who hate the prequels so much that any concept from that trilogy that may be used in the sequel trilogy, regardless of however slight it is or if it makes sense in the story will complain.
 
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Osprey

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I was referring to those who hate the prequels so much that any concept from that trilogy that may be used in the sequel trilogy, regardless of however slight it is or if it makes sense in the story will complain.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're suggesting that people will complain about concepts just because they were in the prequels, which they dislike. If so, that seems to disregard the likelihood that things like that are partly why they dislike the prequels. If we hated certain concepts in the prequels, we should be allowed to hate them in the sequel trilogy, so long as the reasons are reasonable.
 

HanSolo

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I'm not saying it ruined it, just saying that's an issue. No need for that kind of response, you said it was canon.
I don't see what the big issue is. Force users weren't supposed to shoot lightning out of their hands until Return of the Jedi and they eventually had to write a retcon around why Vader never used it against Luke (him not having his original, organic hands). In Revenge of the Sith we get background to a force user who used the force to heal injuries and possibly manipulated the force to make someone pregnant.

The force is supposed to be a mystical and not easily understood factor in this narrative universe, and I know that's a clever plot device to allow new chapters of Star Wars to do new cool things with the Force but its valid enough that as many problems as I have with TLJ (Leia Poppins included), Yoda calling on the Force to strike lightning down was so inconsequential and to be honest, believable, that it didn't even register in my head as an issue until people started bitching about it this year.

And here's why it could makes sense even if we haven't seen it before: Yoda was shown to be one of the strongest users of the Force alive. When someone dies and becomes a force ghost its their soul or whatever moving through space and time through the Force to communicate with the living who commune with the Force. This obviously involves somekind of manipulation of the Force's energies and influence on the real world. Why is it so implausible or ridiculous to think that a master of the Force might have figured out how to manipulate his afterlife use of the Force? We have an entire genre of cinema devoted to vengeful spirits haunting people from the afterlife and manipulating the real world and that's perfectly plausible within the scope of that genre and some even believe ghosts exist in real life and can have such haunting effect. But in a Sci fi fantasy, it's silliness that a ghost could influence the real world?

If any Force use in TLJ should be getting flak its how Snoke created a mind link across the galaxy between Rey and Kylo.
 

bleedblue1223

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I don't see what the big issue is. Force users weren't supposed to shoot lightning out of their hands until Return of the Jedi and they eventually had to write a retcon around why Vader never used it against Luke (him not having his original, organic hands). In Revenge of the Sith we get background to a force user who used the force to heal injuries and possibly manipulated the force to make someone pregnant.

The force is supposed to be a mystical and not easily understood factor in this narrative universe, and I know that's a clever plot device to allow new chapters of Star Wars to do new cool things with the Force but its valid enough that as many problems as I have with TLJ (Leia Poppins included), Yoda calling on the Force to strike lightning down was so inconsequential and to be honest, believable, that it didn't even register in my head as an issue until people started *****ing about it this year.

And here's why it could makes sense even if we haven't seen it before: Yoda was shown to be one of the strongest users of the Force alive. When someone dies and becomes a force ghost its their soul or whatever moving through space and time through the Force to communicate with the living who commune with the Force. This obviously involves somekind of manipulation of the Force's energies and influence on the real world. Why is it so implausible or ridiculous to think that a master of the Force might have figured out how to manipulate his afterlife use of the Force? We have an entire genre of cinema devoted to vengeful spirits haunting people from the afterlife and manipulating the real world and that's perfectly plausible within the scope of that genre and some even believe ghosts exist in real life and can have such haunting effect. But in a Sci fi fantasy, it's silliness that a ghost could influence the real world?

If any Force use in TLJ should be getting flak its how Snoke created a mind link across the galaxy between Rey and Kylo.
A force ghost using the force in the living world has the potential to open the floodgates. In all canon, the cosmic force and living force would just simply communicate with each other, now it's reasonable for a force ghost to involve themselves in fights. You can call that nit-picking if you want, but to me I bet they simply gloss over it and force ghosts won't interact that way again. It simply comes down to cosmic force and living force and how they interact with each other. If you prefer it this way fine, but it goes against what was presented to us during the Clone Wars show.

A force bond/connection has already existed though, Rian just expanded on it. It's not different from Luke and Vader and Luke and Leia from the OT. The difference is that in the OT, you could of thought it was because of family connection or being close enough to that individual. Snoke was thought to be this uber powerful dark force user, so I don't think it's too crazy for him to be able to do what he did. There is a piece of it that is a bit weird, but I won't go into that until 9 comes out.
 

Tawnos

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A force ghost using the force in the living world has the potential to open the floodgates. In all canon, the cosmic force and living force would just simply communicate with each other, now it's reasonable for a force ghost to involve themselves in fights. You can call that nit-picking if you want, but to me I bet they simply gloss over it and force ghosts won't interact that way again. It simply comes down to cosmic force and living force and how they interact with each other. If you prefer it this way fine, but it goes against what was presented to us during the Clone Wars show.

A force bond/connection has already existed though, Rian just expanded on it. It's not different from Luke and Vader and Luke and Leia from the OT. The difference is that in the OT, you could of thought it was because of family connection or being close enough to that individual. Snoke was thought to be this uber powerful dark force user, so I don't think it's too crazy for him to be able to do what he did. There is a piece of it that is a bit weird, but I won't go into that until 9 comes out.

Snoke connected himself to Kylo, which you are right that there’s precedent for that. But he also connected Kylo to Rey. That’s much different.
 

bleedblue1223

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Snoke connected himself to Kylo, which you are right that there’s precedent for that. But he also connected Kylo to Rey. That’s much different.
It's different, but it's just an expansion on what we've previously seen. That's why I don't think it caused much issue. It's also another reason why so many people were curious about Snoke because it's clear he has a ridiculous amount of power in the force.
 

HanSolo

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A force ghost using the force in the living world has the potential to open the floodgates. In all canon, the cosmic force and living force would just simply communicate with each other, now it's reasonable for a force ghost to involve themselves in fights. You can call that nit-picking if you want, but to me I bet they simply gloss over it and force ghosts won't interact that way again. It simply comes down to cosmic force and living force and how they interact with each other. If you prefer it this way fine, but it goes against what was presented to us during the Clone Wars show.

A force bond/connection has already existed though, Rian just expanded on it. It's not different from Luke and Vader and Luke and Leia from the OT. The difference is that in the OT, you could of thought it was because of family connection or being close enough to that individual. Snoke was thought to be this uber powerful dark force user, so I don't think it's too crazy for him to be able to do what he did. There is a piece of it that is a bit weird, but I won't go into that until 9 comes out.

But it shouldn't be too crazy that Yoda was able to do what he did either. You're right that if it ends up being abused as a way to shove dead characters into action sequences it can get pretty absurd, but I'm pretty sure they know that. And it's not like Yoda popped in to intervene in Luke's astral projected "fight" with Kylo. Or the throne room fight. He just set a tree on fire as a symbolic gesture. I doubt it's going to become the MO.

And it's not a matter of what I prefer it's just a matter of fact that as Star Wars continues to make films, it will occasionally show us something with the Force that we haven't seen before. You seemed fine with Kylo holding a blaster shot in stasis and had a rational explanation for why it made sense. Then you have a well reasoned argument for why Rey/Kylo's force link made sense.

What I'm saying is, sure Clone Wars had their explanation of the living force and cosmic force but that was based on an understanding of the Force at a time some 65+ years before the Last Jedi's events. In between that time it's shown that on some level, most Jedi don't even know how to commune with the dead (personally I still find it silly that Lucas felt a need to give some rational explanation to communing with Force ghosts since he portrays it as some acquired talent but then all of a sudden Luke can see Yoda, Ben, and Anakin with no training in how to do so) and Obi Wan needed special training to commune with Qui-Gon, and presumably learn how to commune from the afterlife.

Also in that time Yoda spent a long time in solitude on Dagobah where he could have learned how to expand on his knowledge of the living/cosmic force. And it can be said that a brilliant mind like Yoda's could have, in the afterlife, done more to expand on the scope of his abilities in death than most sentient souls in the force ever attempted.

As long as we're in agreement that the force link isn't that dumb I'd say, while still accepting its place that Yoda using lightning from the dead is still more plausible to me than that, and more plausible than Luke astral projecting himself to death (which I also don't have much of a problem with).

You're right that it could present a problem going forward (though I doubt it actually will) and there's reason for concern. But as for it not making sense as a matter of lore, I don't see the issue.
 

NyQuil

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People are genuinely upset by the Jedi "texts"?

Didn't Luke "text" Leia to come rescue him from a pole outside Bespin station?

And she had little to no Force ability at that point.

Rey and Kylo should undoubtedly be able to communicate at further distances.
 

bleedblue1223

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People are genuinely upset by the Jedi "texts"?

Didn't Luke "text" Leia to come rescue him from a pole outside Bespin station?

And she had little to no Force ability at that point.

Rey and Kylo should undoubtedly be able to communicate at further distances.
No, I don't think anyone is upset about it. The way it's currently presented is either a family type connection like Vader/Luke/Leia or a dark force power where Snoke made the connection and much more powerful. I don't think anyone made an argument against it or that it's bad.
 

NyQuil

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No, I don't think anyone is upset about it. The way it's currently presented is either a family type connection like Vader/Luke/Leia or a dark force power where Snoke made the connection and much more powerful. I don't think anyone made an argument against it or that it's bad.

There are so few instances of it that I’m surprised people are trying to be definitive about it.
 

bleedblue1223

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There are so few instances of it that I’m surprised people are trying to be definitive about it.
I don't think anyone is being definitive about it. Someone said of the force powers in TLJ that would be the one to have a problem with, that person personally doesn't have a problem with it. I followed up and said I didn't have a problem with and it laid out my reasoning. Based on context, they probably expected me to have an issue with it.

One force power that isn't canon currently that would be cool if Rey did would be battle meditation. That would make people scream Mary Sue though because it would pretty much make her the most powerful jedi that we've seen. Perfect way to canonize KOTOR, she read up on Bastilla and that's how the Resistance takes out the Sith Fleet.
 

HanSolo

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People are genuinely upset by the Jedi "texts"?

Didn't Luke "text" Leia to come rescue him from a pole outside Bespin station?

And she had little to no Force ability at that point.

Rey and Kylo should undoubtedly be able to communicate at further distances.

Sure but to basically astral project each other across the galaxy? Luke died doing that for too long. It's not that I have a problem much less am upset with it but if Yoda setting a tree on fire doesn't make sense I don't see why this element of the film is more plausible.

Also Luke communicated to Leia on the same planet...not even that but likely within the same 50 mile radius. It's not like Leia got very far before she turned around. Sure Rey and Kylo are stronger with the Force than Leia was but that's a huge distance difference. Again, I'm someone that's very open to the Force doing extraordinary things and didn't hate this part of the story. But I also don't think a force ghost manipulating the force is nonsensical either.
 

Tawnos

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Sure but to basically astral project each other across the galaxy? Luke died doing that for too long. It's not that I have a problem much less am upset with it but if Yoda setting a tree on fire doesn't make sense I don't see why this element of the film is more plausible.

Also Luke communicated to Leia on the same planet...not even that but likely within the same 50 mile radius. It's not like Leia got very far before she turned around. Sure Rey and Kylo are stronger with the Force than Leia was but that's a huge distance difference. Again, I'm someone that's very open to the Force doing extraordinary things and didn't hate this part of the story. But I also don't think a force ghost manipulating the force is nonsensical either.

I'm not convinced distance matters in this case.
 

bleedblue1223

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The part that I would have a problem with is if they take it a step further and have them transport to another location. When you start to lean on the force to just make things work in the story and treat it like magic, it'll just come off as lazy.
 

HanSolo

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The part that I would have a problem with is if they take it a step further and have them transport to another location. When you start to lean on the force to just make things work in the story and treat it like magic, it'll just come off as lazy.

Sure that would be ridiculous. Like I said it's fine to be concerned about potential implications. As for it being a symbolic message that Rey doesn't need the ancient Jedi texts, I think it was fine.
I'm not convinced distance matters in this case.
Maybe not but Kylo kind of implies that the effort to astral project would kill someone like Rey and did kill Luke. But it didn't kill Snoke.
 

bleedblue1223

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Sure that would be ridiculous. Like I said it's fine to be concerned about potential implications. As for it being a symbolic message that Rey doesn't need the ancient Jedi texts, I think it was fine.

Maybe not but Kylo kind of implies that the effort to astral project would kill someone like Rey and did kill Luke. But it didn't kill Snoke.

What do you mean by this?
 

NyQuil

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Maybe not but Kylo kind of implies that the effort to astral project would kill someone like Rey and did kill Luke. But it didn't kill Snoke.

At the time, I was thinking it was more about implanting an image of the person in the person's mind, as opposed to physically projecting your image there for all to see, as in the case of Luke.

Again, I only saw it 1 1/2 times.
 

bleedblue1223

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I mean the purpose of Yoda's force use isn't appallingly offensive.
It was just another RJ subvert expectations moment because she got the texts in the end. It happened so often in the film, that I almost expected everything that I saw the first time to just be subverted later at some point in the movie, just not a fan of that herky jerky flow.
 

bleedblue1223

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At the time, I was thinking it was more about implanting an image of the person in the person's mind, as opposed to physically projecting your image there for all to see, as in the case of Luke.

Again, I only saw it 1 1/2 times.
That's how I took it as well.
 
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