Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker - II

[ArGarBarGar]

And now you see why that guy responded like he did.

When any plan relies on the enemy to act like an idiot, then it's a fundamental issue. There are fundamental issues in the PT and OT too.

You understand in the real world there are a ridiculous number of people who are in positions of power who have done stupid things?

An enemy doing something or some things stupid isn't a fundamental issue. You may think the stupid thing doesn't work or there are too many stupid things, but that is much different than a fundamental issue which breaks the narrative.

I also find it weird how me saying we have a difference of opinions on definitions is anything close to what he thought I would say.

 

[bleedblue1223]

You understand in the real world there are a ridiculous number of people who are in positions of power who have done stupid things?

An enemy doing something or some things stupid isn't a fundamental issue. You may think the stupid thing doesn't work or there are too many stupid things, but that is much different than a fundamental issue which breaks the narrative.

I also find it weird how me saying we have a difference of opinions on definitions is anything close to what he thought I would say.

Disagree. It's just plot armor, same as how stormtroopers have terrible aim and lose battle to little bears. It's a fundamental issue. Same as acting illogical, when victory is in your grasp, and you just let it go.

Contradicting your own themes is a fundamental issue.

Creating plot holes that force ghosts can actually do physical things to impact the environment is a fundamental issue.

We've had all these discussions before and I don't think a single one has been productive.

 

[x Tame Impala]

See I don't see those as "fundamental" issues, honestly.

The issues become fundamental when they are the preceding steps towards moving major plot points along in the movie.

People doing stupid things in real life is obviously different than pretend characters doing stupid things when they have their decisions written out beforehand.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Disagree. It's just plot armor, same as how stormtroopers have terrible aim and lose battle to little bears. It's a fundamental issue. Same as acting illogical, when victory is in your grasp, and you just let it go.

Contradicting your own themes is a fundamental issue.

Which themes are being contradicted?

 

[bleedblue1223]

Which themes are being contradicted?

Rose's line, not fighting what you hate, but saving what you love. You could apply the same to Holdo, who didn't need to sacrifice herself, she could've had a droid do it.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Rose's line, not fighting what you hate, but saving what you love. You could apply the same to Holdo, who didn't need to sacrifice herself, she could've had a droid do it.

I believe what Holdo did and what Finn did to be different in motive. Holdo's direct motivation was to prevent the FO from picking off the people trying to escape, and her final action was for that goal.

Finn's was originally to save the rest of the resistance, but his motive switched from saving the resistance to stopping the FO at all costs (You can understandably disagree). Poe noticed the ships they were flying did not have the capacity to stop the ram, so he called everyone back so as to not lose more lives for the sake of stopping one ship (calling back to the beginning of the movie). Finn rejects this as he refuses to "let [The FO] win", which calls Rose to stop him from throwing his life away for a lost cause that benefits nobody. Her line was not written all that great, but based on the framing of the film I can understand where she is coming from.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Finn is the only one that could know what could have the capacity to stop the ram, then again, he doesn't even know the FO has jet troopers.

It was just one of Rian's less clever subvert expectations. Without Rose's line, it really wouldn't have been a theme, but with the line, it ultimately is.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I believe what Holdo did and what Finn did to be different in motive. Holdo's direct motivation was to prevent the FO from picking off the people trying to escape, and her final action was for that goal.

Finn's was originally to save the rest of the resistance, but his motive switched from saving the resistance to stopping the FO at all costs (You can understandably disagree). Poe noticed the ships they were flying did not have the capacity to stop the ram, so he called everyone back so as to not lose more lives for the sake of stopping one ship (calling back to the beginning of the movie). Finn rejects this as he refuses to "let [The FO] win", which calls Rose to stop him from throwing his life away for a lost cause that benefits nobody. Her line was not written all that great, but based on the framing of the film I can understand where she is coming from.

Actually, Poe told them to pull back because they were being picked off so easily, had nothing to do with the ram. I'll also just let how Rose was able to speed up to Finn on the side, and then make a turn, and still be able to crash into him slide.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

And now you see why that guy responded like he did.

When any plan relies on the enemy to act like an idiot, then it's a fundamental issue. There are fundamental issues in the PT and OT too.

This is because the things you are pointing out are nitpicks, the reason the PT and the OT also have some is because you can nitpick at anything.

A fundamentaly flawed script does things like: not introduce a character, has bad pacing and yes, plot holes. The difference between a plot hole and a nitpick is that the nitpick is essentially asking "why didn't thing X happen instead?" while a plothole is "this crucial piece of information was not conveyed" or "we never saw thing X happen" or "a character does something completely out of character (because the writers have written themselves into a corner)".

- Why was the First Order wreckless and arrogant instead of simply firing at the Resistance ships with their insane cannons right away? The FO is wreckless and arrogant, that's one of their defining characteristics as a faction.

I'm not arguing that this a good thing, I'm just saying that it is not a plot hole; a plot hole makes the story being told not work at a structural level.

- Rose is the one that doesn't believe in sacrifice because her sister's sacrifice was pointless due to Poe being an idiot. It isn't a structural issue with the story that Leia and Poe are ok with Holdo sacrificing herself.

- Ghost Yoda indirectly zapped a tree. That isn't quite the same as fighting another force user.

All these things can be very reasonably explained and yes, do require suspension of disbelief to a certain degree. Here again, all movies do, you are supposed to go along with it for the ride.

TLJ was a weird ride, I won't argue that

 

[bleedblue1223]

- Ghost Yoda zapped a tree. That isn't quite the same as fighting another force user.

Won't really respond to the other stuff because it's been a discussion that's been beaten to death, and I really don't want to do that all again. How is this not a plot hole though? Doesn't matter if it's simply introduced as force lightning a tree, but it's a fundamental issue on 2 points. It's something that goes against what Yoda as a jedi of using a dark side force power. Introducing that a ghost can physically impact the environment, means they can use that same power on physical people and potentially use other force powers as well. It's a giant plot hole that will simply be glossed over and we'll act like it didn't happen.

Although it would be funny if in one of the battles of Rey and Kylo, Yoda shows up turns off Kylo's saber with the force and then laugh at one of his one-liners.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Actually, Poe told them to pull back because they were being picked off so easily, had nothing to do with the ram. I'll also just let how Rose was able to speed up to Finn on the side, and then make a turn, and still be able to crash into him slide.

She was able to speed up and catch him because Finn was trying to fly through a ram that was sending ridiculously strong amounts of energy directly at him and slowing him down.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Won't really respond to the other stuff because it's been a discussion that's been beaten to death, and I really don't want to do that all again. How is this not a plot hole though? Doesn't matter if it's simply introduced as force lightning a tree, but it's a fundamental issue on 2 points. It's something that goes against what Yoda as a jedi of using a dark side force power. Introducing that a ghost can physically impact the environment, means they can use that same power on physical people and potentially use other force powers as well. It's a giant plot hole that will simply be glossed over and we'll act like it didn't happen.

Although it would be funny if in one of the battles of Rey and Kylo, Yoda shows up turns off Kylo's sabre with the force and then laugh at one of his one-liners.

Maybe we'll see Luke return as a force ghost and take on Sheev?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Maybe we'll see Luke return as a force ghost and take on Sheev?

Luke and Anakin both force lightning Palpatine and finish him off for good, like he tried to do to Luke in ROTJ.

It's like poetry, it rhymes.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

I wouldn’t overthink Star Wars too much folks.

 

[Jussi]

You understand in the real world there are a ridiculous number of people who are in positions of power who have done stupid things?

An enemy doing something or some things stupid isn't a fundamental issue. You may think the stupid thing doesn't work or there are too many stupid things, but that is much different than a fundamental issue which breaks the narrative.

I also find it weird how me saying we have a difference of opinions on definitions is anything close to what he thought I would say.

Since it's the 80th anniversary of the Winter War starting, time to remind people of how Stalin thought he could easily invade Finland in the Winter. We know how well that went.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I wouldn’t overthink Star Wars too much folks.

But this isn't about Star Wars, it is about story-telling.

You can not like what TLJ decided to do, that's fine and 100% legitimate. Saying that things you didn't like are problems at a story-telling level is not fair criticism.

 

[Suxnet]

I wouldn’t overthink Star Wars too much folks.

They started TLJ off with a f***ing "yo mama" joke in a serious situation. That probably should've tipped people off that they're in for a crappy film.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

They started TLJ off with a ****ing "yo mama" joke in a serious situation. That probably should've tipped people off that they're in for a crappy film.

I enjoyed it!

 

[bleedblue1223]

Since it's the 80th anniversary of the Winter War starting, time to remind people of how Stalin thought he could easily invade Finland in the Winter. We know how well that went.

It's more like you know that thing we just did that worked very well with just a few fighters, we could keep doing that with more fighters or call them all back and continue this slow chase till they run out of fuel, but give them time to form an escape plan.

 

[Tawnos]

This is because the things you are pointing out are nitpicks, the reason the PT and the OT also have some is because you can nitpick at anything.

A fundamentaly flawed script does things like: not introduce a character, has bad pacing and yes, plot holes. The difference between a plot hole and a nitpick is that the nitpick is essentially asking "why didn't thing X happen instead?" while a plothole is "this crucial piece of information was not conveyed" or "we never saw thing X happen" or "a character does something completely out of character (because the writers have written themselves into a corner)".

- Why was the First Order wreckless and arrogant instead of simply firing at the Resistance ships with their insane cannons right away? The FO is wreckless and arrogant, that's one of their defining characteristics as a faction.

I'm not arguing that this a good thing, I'm just saying that it is not a plot hole; a plot hole makes the story being told not work at a structural level.

- Rose is the one that doesn't believe in sacrifice because her sister's sacrifice was pointless due to Poe being an idiot. It isn't a structural issue with the story that Leia and Poe are ok with Holdo sacrificing herself.

- Ghost Yoda indirectly zapped a tree. That isn't quite the same as fighting another force user.

All these things can be very reasonably explained and yes, do require suspension of disbelief to a certain degree. Here again, all movies do, you are supposed to go along with it for the ride.

TLJ was a weird ride, I won't argue that

Yes, yes.

 

[bleedblue1223]

The FO was not reckless in TFA, and they are also ruthless.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I enjoyed it!

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

- Rose is the one that doesn't believe in sacrifice because her sister's sacrifice was pointless due to Poe being an idiot. It isn't a structural issue with the story that Leia and Poe are ok with Holdo sacrificing herself.

The issue I had with this is 1) Rose's sister sacrifice is shot like a noble, last-second thing 2) Holdo's sacrifice is shot like a noble, last-second thing 3) in the climax of the film the heroes escape from the First Order because Luke sacrifices himself.

To make it work, it should be viewed as a meta-commentary. Poe fails because he sees himself as the hero destined to save everyone. Holdo, Rose's sister and Luke are trying to accomplish set goals rather than play the hero. But it kinda falls flat in that regard anyway.

- Ghost Yoda indirectly zapped a tree. That isn't quite the same as fighting another force user.

Never got this complaint. Force ghosts and Force lightning are pre-established in the cannon.

 

[HanSolo]

The issues become fundamental when they are the preceding steps towards moving major plot points along in the movie.

People doing stupid things in real life is obviously different than pretend characters doing stupid things when they have their decisions written out beforehand.

That's a weak cop out. In lower budget cinema character flaws and errant decisions are viewed as realism but in high budget films it's viewed as poor writing?

I mean I have my issues with the chase through space part of TLJ but this is a terrible counterargument.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Never got this complaint. Force ghosts and Force lightning are pre-established in the cannon.

When have force ghosts used force lightning or any force powers?