Online Series: Star Trek: Discovery - III - Spock's Beard

[Jussi]

This thread has now

 

[Jumptheshark]

This thread has now

if you want to have look into the lawsuit that CBS is fighting right now over the elements of the show they "Stole"

I can see them cancelling the series if they lose the lawsuit

 

[Cloned]

if you want to have look into the lawsuit that CBS is fighting right now over the elements of the show they "Stole"

I can see them cancelling the series if they lose the lawsuit

They won’t cancel the series because of that. Worst case scenario they’ll pay out a settlement.

 

[wej20]

No one, and I mean no one asked for a Trek animated comedy series.

Classic case of not staying in their lane. The Orville (while by no means perfect) is filling that lane much better.

 

[Commander Clueless]

I finally brought myself to watch this show as a long time Star Trek fan.

I think the simplest way to explain it is a few flashes of good and a bunch o bad culminating in a huge pile of what the f***.


Season 2 in particular started out interesting, and then ended up with one of the most nonsensical plot lines I've ever tried to wrap my poor brain around.

 

[The Nemesis]

I finally brought myself to watch this show as a long time Star Trek fan.

I think the simplest way to explain it is a few flashes of good and a bunch o bad culminating in a huge pile of what the ****.


Season 2 in particular started out interesting, and then ended up with one of the most nonsensical plot lines I've ever tried to wrap my poor brain around.

How dare you not love Michael Burnham. She's the character we all deserve!

 

[LeafalCrusader]

I promised myself I'd give it 3 seasons. TNG and DS9 are my 2 favourite Trek's and they both had subpar (that's being nice) seasons 1 and 2 then found its way and made me fall in love with the franchise. With STD I'm just not sure I can do it though. I think its only going to get worse.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

Burnham is the original form of the god being imprisoned in the center of the galaxy beyond the great barrier in Star Trek V

I'd like to see the show end with her getting a sex/species change, changing her name to Sybok and starting a cult with Tilly as her #1 disciple.

 

[The Nemesis]

I'd like to see the show end with her getting a sex/species change, changing her name to Sybok and starting a cult with Tilly as her #1 disciple.

I think we both know she's going to end up becoming the god being beyond the great barrier. Then it makes perfect sense why Kirk gets zapped for daring to question her when he asks "what does god need with a starship?"

 

[Commander Clueless]

How dare you not love Michael Burnham. She's the character we all deserve!

What horrible thing have Trek fans done to deserve that?


They worked really hard to make her more tolerable in season 2 after dreadful first impressions, but met only slight success.


At least she's a a better character than Ash Tyler....

 

[Jussi]

Months ago, the fine folks in this thread recommended The Expanse, so I watched the entire series and finished a week ago. It's written so much better than Discovery. It's smart without relying on spouting technobabble; it has technology, but doesn't introduce anything to solve problems or make the writers' jobs easier; it doesn't rely on nostalgia and fan service (because it can't); it doesn't leave characters undeveloped until just before they're suddenly important or killed off; it doesn't have characters that seem unfit for their stations; and it doesn't add jokes or klutzy characters for the sake of levity. It's not perfect, but the writing is so much better than Discovery's that it really puts Kurtzman and his team to shame, IMO.

Well it is based on a book series, so it's natural there's stronger groundwork on it than tv series written on the fly. Not a fair comparison (and I like The Expanse).

 

[Osprey]

Well it is based on a book series, so it's natural there's stronger groundwork on it than tv series written on the fly. Not a fair comparison (and I like The Expanse).

I would argue that it's Discovery that has the much stronger groundwork. It has 50 years of Star Trek to draw upon. Everything--the world, the tone, the themes, what Star Trek is and isn't--has already been defined. The writers even chose an era that's virtually the same as one that's already been depicted numerous times. They inherited so much that their job couldn't have been much easier (and, yet, they still fumbled it).

The Expanse may have the books to go on, but it's never been adapted to the screen or anything else. Good book series don't just automatically translate into good TV series or good movies. Look at The Dark Tower, for example. There's still a lot that the writers and producers had to figure out, such as the look and tone of the show, whether it would be more action packed or more political/cerebral, whether it would be hardcore or casual science fiction and so on. I haven't read the book series, but I imagine that there's a lot that the show's writers had to leave out or re-work, much like what took place with the adapting of Lord of the Rings and A Song of Ice and Fire. Honestly, adapting an epic that's never been adapted before seems more challenging to me than writing new stories in an existing, fleshed out TV/movie universe.

 

[Jussi]

I would argue that it's Discovery that has the much stronger groundwork. It has 50 years of Star Trek to draw upon. Everything--the world, the tone, the themes, what Star Trek is and isn't--have already been defined. The writers even chose an era that's virtually the same as one that's already been depicted numerous times. They inherited so much that their job couldn't have been much easier (and, yet, they still fumbled it).

The Expanse may have the books to go on, but it's never been adapted to the screen or anything else. Good book series don't just automatically translate into good TV series or good movies. Look at The Dark Tower, for example. There's still a lot that the writers and producers had to figure out, such as the look and tone of the show, whether it would be more action packed or more political/cerebral, whether it would be hardcore or casual science fiction and so on. I haven't read the book series, but I imagine that there's a lot that the show's writers had to leave out or re-work, much like what took place with the adapting of Lord of the Rings and A Song of Ice and Fire. Honestly, adapting an epic that's never been adapted before seems more challenging to me than writing new stories in an existing, fleshed out TV/movie universe.

The point was that there's several books worth of character building. The tv show has already done 3 seasons. The poor saps writing Discovery didn't have a base except for fora couple of characters. It also needs to recognized that the people responsible for the end of the second season did remarkable job of cleaning up the mess set up previously. I'm not the only one who didn't expect them to accomplish that.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

What horrible thing have Trek fans done to deserve that?


They worked really hard to make her more tolerable in season 2 after dreadful first impressions, but met only slight success.


At least she's a a better character than Ash Tyler....

The other character's on the show have no purpose other than for her to guide or chastise for not bowing down to her. They are just prop pieces to convince us how wonderful Burnham is.

 

[Osprey]

The point was that there's several books worth of character building. The tv show has already done 3 seasons. The poor saps writing Discovery didn't have a base except for fora couple of characters. It also needs to recognized that the people responsible for the end of the second season did remarkable job of cleaning up the mess set up previously. I'm not the only one who didn't expect them to accomplish that.

I can't imagine that it's that hard to write believable, likable characters and put them through character arcs. Discovery's writers have just made it seem hard by failing in spite of that. Burnham may be the worst central character that I've ever seen, and quite a few of the supporting characters (ex. Tilly, Georgio and Airiam) reinforce to me that they're bad at writing and developing characters. I don't think that they deserve much slack for having to write characters from scratch. If they can't do that, then they shouldn't be writers or, at least, shouldn't be writing for this show, IMO.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

I would argue that it's Discovery that has the much stronger groundwork. It has 50 years of Star Trek to draw upon. Everything--the world, the tone, the themes, what Star Trek is and isn't--has already been defined. The writers even chose an era that's virtually the same as one that's already been depicted numerous times. They inherited so much that their job couldn't have been much easier (and, yet, they still fumbled it).

The Expanse may have the books to go on, but it's never been adapted to the screen or anything else. Good book series don't just automatically translate into good TV series or good movies. Look at The Dark Tower, for example. There's still a lot that the writers and producers had to figure out, such as the look and tone of the show, whether it would be more action packed or more political/cerebral, whether it would be hardcore or casual science fiction and so on. I haven't read the book series, but I imagine that there's a lot that the show's writers had to leave out or re-work, much like what took place with the adapting of Lord of the Rings and A Song of Ice and Fire. Honestly, adapting an epic that's never been adapted before seems more challenging to me than writing new stories in an existing, fleshed out TV/movie universe.

There are only a few things they changed in the books, minus some characters of course. The biggest one is the roci crew drama. When the show begins and the gang finally hit the shit together they are very much at odds with each other. In the books there is much less drama between the Roci crew. The other big thing is they downplayed Miller's sorry state in the show. In the books he's a washed up hasbin of a detective who is rapidly drowning himself in alcohol and pitty.

The technology, locations, tone, feel and how the world inside the fictional universe operates is exactly the same in the show as it in the books, which is probably why the show continues to knock it out of the park.

 

[Blender]

Anson Mount completely carried season 2. Without him all we had was a nonsensical plot, bad characters, terrible dialogue, etc.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Anson Mount completely carried season 2. Without him all we had was a nonsensical plot, bad characters, terrible dialogue, etc.

Clearly if they were going to do a spin-off show, Pike should've been where they went.

Guy was the best character in the show by a fair margin roughly 5 minutes after he showed up.

 

[Blender]

Clearly if they were going to do a spin-off show, Pike should've been where they went.

Ideally the Discovery would have blown up and he could star in season 3. Instead we're getting some more Short Treks.

 

[The Nemesis]

Ideally the Discovery would have blown up and he could star in season 3. Instead we're getting some more Short Treks.

animated short treks. Only one is going to be live action.

 

[Commander Clueless]

The other character's on the show have no purpose other than for her to guide or chastise for not bowing down to her. They are just prop pieces to convince us how wonderful Burnham is.

I take it you are not excited for Star Trek Picard after it was revealed the main character of the show is somehow in fact Michael 2.0?

 

[Tawnos]

That finale was something else. It was full of action, but on thinking about it more, it kind of angers me.

I think my biggest issue with Discovery is two fold: It lacks an identity and the writers cut too many corners to give us emotional moments that are not earned.

What is Star Trek Discovery? What is it's place in the Star Trek Mythos? What I saw in Season 2 was Discovery sidelined in favor of Star Trek mysticism. Pike was great, Spock was decent, but it feels like fans are so entrenched in the original series for some reason (A series that only lasted 3 seasons, by the way) that Star Trek as a whole always has to revert back to that series. Why can't Discovery stand on it's own. Hell, we end season 2 with the Enterprise and not the Discovery. That is a big disservice to Discovery in my opinion.

I think the character who got the shortest shrift was Paul Stamets. Stamets was a great character in season 1, going from arrogant to standing his ground against Lorca and what he has worked for. In season 2 he's just pining for Culber all year. Anthony Rapp deserves better because he's a much better actor than that.

In terms of cutting corners, look no further than Airiam's death scene. The writers take so much time writing a clip show for this character because they were too lazy to actually work on a character arc for her the prior season and a half. We were lead to believe that these characters are important, then why did the writers treat them as furniture prior to this. The same can be said for the entire secondary bridge crew. We then have scenes with these people writing letters home and it feels empty because why should I care about these people when the writers don't.

I hate how Burnham centric this show is. Everything has to revolve around her, and it makes me roll my eyes. I'm not going to get into a Mary Sue debate, but by making her the Red Angel, did the writers pretty much elevate her to a deity. Also, that story with her mom was a big waste of time. Also, can she stop crying? Every episode this season she is crying and it's ridiculous. She's the most emotionally sad character I've seen in Star Trek and she's the lead.

I hope season 3 is a reboot of the series, and this time they actually give a damn for the characters they write. I don't want Star Trek. I want Star Trek Discovery. That's what the show is called and they should be front and center. By having the final shot of the finale being the Enterprise going on it's mission, that was a spit in the face to the two seasons of Star Trek Discovery, like These are the Voyages was a spit in the face to Star Trek Enterprise (According to many in fandom).

I didn't see this thread earlier because I had @Blender on ignore. I think because I couldn't keep getting sucked into the disagreements we would have over and over, not because I dislike him or anything.

Anyway, a lot of what you're talking about here is a fundamental problem with the short series trend in general. If you made a 20 episode season, you could have exactly the same serial episodes, but they could be interspersed with with more one-off type episodes involving individual characters like Ariam. TNG was nearly entirely that, with Picard getting the most attention. You wouldn't have to go back to that format, but balance it between the two different styles. Instead, it's a lot like if you took all the Worf/Klingon politics episodes and combined them into a single short season. You'd be left with all kinds of other questions about all the other characters around him.

Oh, and no matter how much crying Burnham does, she's still easier to handle emotionally than Troi.

 

[wej20]

I didn't see this thread earlier because I had @Blender on ignore. I think because I couldn't keep getting sucked into the disagreements we would have over and over, not because I dislike him or anything.

Anyway, a lot of what you're talking about here is a fundamental problem with the short series trend in general. If you made a 20 episode season, you could have exactly the same serial episodes, but they could be interspersed with with more one-off type episodes involving individual characters like Ariam. TNG was nearly entirely that, with Picard getting the most attention. You wouldn't have to go back to that format, but balance it between the two different styles. Instead, it's a lot like if you took all the Worf/Klingon politics episodes and combined them into a single short season. You'd be left with all kinds of other questions about all the other characters around him.

Oh, and no matter how much crying Burnham does, she's still easier to handle emotionally than Troi.

That's a good point actually. Less time means focusing on your main characters more. Though having decided Ariam was going to be important in Season 2 they should have definitely been smart enough to develop her a little.

 

[Jumptheshark]

man is CBS going to the dark side over trying to kill anyone who talks about any series--last 24 hours about 3 or 4 geek channels on youtube all got nuked to copy write claims direct from CBS and these were not just robot hitting a button--it manual claims made against their channels.

While I have had some problems with what CBS has done--they are just killing the fact the entire franchise was saved by the loyal fans--sad very sad

 

[Jussi]

man is CBS going to the dark side over trying to kill anyone who talks about any series--last 24 hours about 3 or 4 geek channels on youtube all got nuked to copy write claims direct from CBS and these were not just robot hitting a button--it manual claims made against their channels.

While I have had some problems with what CBS has done--they are just killing the fact the entire franchise was saved by the loyal fans--sad very sad

Which channels?