Post-Game Talk: STANLEY CUP FINAL Tampa Bay is THE WINNER.

Who wins and in how many games?

  • Tampa Bay in 4

  • TB in 5

  • TB in 6

  • TB in 7

  • Dallas in 4

  • Dallas in 5

  • Dallas in 6

  • Dallas in 7


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Miller Time

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He's got a good future although a far cry from the norris winner people were suggesting. You look at guys like Heiskanen who are younger and more ahead. There's other players as well who are just fantastic who make even a blue chip like Sergachev look second tier.

Takes like this make me wonder if ppl just forget or ignore history?

At one time, Phaneuf was clearly ahead of Weber...
Giordano & Rafalski were in Europe in their 20's with doubts they'd ever be NHL regulars, let alone top pairing...
Chara was a throw-in few batted an eyelash at...

What Sergachev is doing, right now at 22, suggests a Norris future is well within his reach. If anything, that looks more like a possibility based on his level of play an all around growth and progression as a dman to date, than it did when he was a highly rated prospect.

To suggest otherwise because other young dmen are putting up more points is a very short sighted take.
 

LyricalLyricist

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Takes like this make me wonder if ppl just forget or ignore history?

At one time, Phaneuf was clearly ahead of Weber...
Giordano & Rafalski were in Europe in their 20's with doubts they'd ever be NHL regulars, let alone top pairing...
Chara was a throw-in few batted an eyelash at...

What Sergachev is doing, right now at 22, suggests a Norris future is well within his reach. If anything, that looks more like a possibility based on his level of play an all around growth and progression as a dman to date, than it did when he was a highly rated prospect.

To suggest otherwise because other young dmen are putting up more points is a very short sighted take.

You're looking at exceptions to the rule and not the rule.

What Sergachev is doing does not suggest a norris is within reach.

Heiskanen, Makar, Quinn, Dahlin, etc... are examples of D-men who are both younger and either had better rookie seasons or are already better. It's not just points. Some of these guys are studs.

When you add to fact that Doughty, Karlsson, Burns, Hedman, Pietrangelo, Josi, etc... are not exactly about the retire it will be extremely difficult for him to win.

Again, you can live by exceptions but if I had to choose who has a better chance at a norris in their career between Sergachev or Heiskanen, i would choose the latter. Would you really say Sergachev has the better shot?

Don't get me wrong, Sergachev is very good but I genuinely don't see the norris hype. Maybe one day he'll be nominated for one but I don't see him ever winning. It's still early as you pointed out but I just see players being ahead of him at same age. If you're arguing its possible, sure, its possible. I mean Cheechoo won the rocket richard so lots of things are possible, I just don't think it's likely.

I am also curious to see how Sergachev, at this age, would do if he was the Stars #1 D for example. Without the help of Hedman, McDonagh, etc...

Oh, and for sake of discussion you mentioned the following players:

Rafalski, Weber, Phaneuf and Giordano. Only 1 has won a norris. So even as good as they are/were it wasn't something easy to acquire.
 
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Miller Time

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You're looking at exceptions to the rule and not the rule.

What Sergachev is doing does not suggest a norris is within reach.

Heiskanen, Makar, Quinn, Dahlin, etc... are examples of D-men who are both younger and either had better rookie seasons or are already better. It's not just points. Some of these guys are studs.

When you add to fact that Doughty, Karlsson, Burns, Hedman, Pietrangelo, Josi, etc... are not exactly about the retire it will be extremely difficult for him to win.

Again, you can live by exceptions but if I had to choose who has a better chance at a norris in their career between Sergachev or Heiskanen, i would choose the latter. Would you really say Sergachev has the better shot?

Don't get me wrong, Sergachev is very good but I genuinely don't see the norris hype. Maybe one day he'll be nominated for one but I don't see him ever winning. It's still early as you pointed out but I just see players being ahead of him at same age. If you're arguing its possible, sure, its possible. I mean Cheechoo won the rocket richard so lots of things are possible, I just don't think it's likely.

I am also curious to see how Sergachev, at this age, would do if he was the Stars #1 D for example. Without the help of Hedman, McDonagh, etc...

I'd argue that that judging future Norris likelihood by rookie seasons being a bad assessment model is more the rule than otherwise.

Keith, Burns, Giordano, Chara, Karlsson, Hedman, PK.... All Norris winners who had other dmen of their age or younger performing "ahead" of them very early in their career.

I was pointing out a very common reality... Norris winners tend to be dmen whose games continuously improve from early in their careers onward.
Sergachev has shown very impressive growth in his game.
That, more than immediate performance, is a far better predictor of future Norris caliber play. That's a pretty consistent "rule" if we looked at the past winners & contenders.

Yes, he's on a great team, but what is noticeable and impressive about his game is how far it's already come at the defensive end of things. He's playing big minutes with top matchups and having major impact despite not lighting it up offensively... He's doing what his team/coach need from him to win.
There's a maturity to his game that was definitely not there as a rookie, and yet we know the offensive game/skill is very much there.

Id say that bodes well for the kind of all around impact Norris winners usually have... Something a guy like Quinn, whom you listed, clearly doesn't show yet.

Heck, even his Norris teammate Hedman wasn't nearly as well rounded and impactful at the same age.

Yet you feel apt to liken compare him to Cheechoo winning the rocket???

That is a very curious bias hiding behind a completely ungrounded assessment :laugh:
 

LyricalLyricist

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I'd argue that that judging future Norris likelihood by rookie seasons being a bad assessment model is more the rule than otherwise.

Except several of the players I mentioned aren't rookies. Heiskanen isn't a rookie. Dahlin isn't a rookie, etc...

Keith, Burns, Giordano, Chara, Karlsson, Hedman, PK.... All Norris winners who had other dmen of their age or younger performing "ahead" of them very early in their career.

Yeah, guys like Karlsson who had 78 points in 81 games in their 3rd season. You know...in his 3rd season(which Sergachev is currently in) Karlsson won his first norris. I'm glad you think they're similar.

Of course the others are good examples of players who won later on in their career after continued growth but on what basis is Sergachev going to have guaranteed growth until his 30s?

Aren't we continuously victims of this logic. The idea where players will continuously improve, without fault, especially the ones we like. I DO believe Sergachev will improve but the question isn't IF he'll improve the question is if he'll win a norris. Guys like Heiskanen aren't just 'ahead', he's at a conn smythe level performance. He's already a top end talent, not an emerging one.

I was pointing out a very common reality... Norris winners tend to be dmen whose games continuously improve from early in their careers onward.
Sergachev has shown very impressive growth in his game.
That, more than immediate performance, is a far better predictor of future Norris caliber play. That's a pretty consistent "rule" if we looked at the past winners & contenders.

To pull a random name out of a hat: It's like me saying Matt Dumba showed growth in his first 3 seasons...he should be winning norris any minute now.

Yeah, improving your game is key but just because you improve doesn't mean you'll ever be on that level. It's very difficult. It's no different than a kotkaniemi or any young talent. We see the improvement but to be THE GUY is not the same as being a core piece. Not everyone can do it.

Yes, he's on a great team, but what is noticeable and impressive about his game is how far it's already come at the defensive end of things. He's playing big minutes with top matchups and having major impact despite not lighting it up offensively... He's doing what his team/coach need from him to win.
There's a maturity to his game that was definitely not there as a rookie, and yet we know the offensive game/skill is very much there.

He's a good player, no doubt. He's being played as an offensive #3 d-man currently. A lean towards PP over SH and all that and he's doing well. Nothing wrong with him.

Id say that bodes well for the kind of all around impact Norris winners usually have... Something a guy like Quinn, whom you listed, clearly doesn't show yet.

Sure but I mentioned others.

Heck, even his Norris teammate Hedman wasn't nearly as well rounded and impactful at the same age.

That is a curious position to take about Hedman.

At same age Hedman played more per game.
Hedman played less on the PP per game than Sergachev but MORE on the PK than sergachev.
He had more points per game(lead TBL D in PPG), his PPG is higher than Sergachev's PPG this year despite Sergachev playing on better team with more PP time...
He didn't have much better players in front of him to protect him.

Are you really implying Sergachev, as a #3 is more impactful and well rounded than a guy who was playing more, making more points and killing more penalties while succeeding on a worse team?

Yet you feel apt to liken compare him to Cheechoo winning the rocket???

I never compared the two. I said if Cheechoo(an extreme) can win then anything is possible. Sergachev is a better player in his position than Cheechoo was.

Granted, don't forget you compared Sergachev to Karlsson...a guy who had a norris at same age. Just saying...

That is a very curious bias hiding behind a completely ungrounded assessment :laugh:

Your assessment is based on fact a young player is improving well and doing good things.

Have you not seen hundreds of players improve over the years around the league only to NOT end up stars?

You have this idea that I said Sergachev is bad or won't amount to much. I'm just saying I don't think he will be the best d-man in the world in any given year.

You disagree, you think within the next 10-15 years(up to 37 I guess) Sergachev will be crowned best d-man in the world.

Like I said, it's always possible but the competition is stiff both from prime aged talents like Hedman and by young guys on the rise.

If you consider something like this ungrounded then so be it.
 
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Miller Time

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Except several of the players I mentioned aren't rookies. Heiskanen isn't a rookie. Dahlin isn't a rookie, etc...



Yeah, guys like Karlsson who had 78 points in 81 games in their 3rd season. You know...in his 3rd season(which Sergachev is currently in) Karlsson won his first norris. I'm glad you think they're similar.

Of course the others are good examples of players who won later on in their career after continued growth but on what basis is Sergachev going to have guaranteed growth until his 30s?

Aren't we continuously victims of this logic. The idea where players will continuously improve, without fault, especially the ones we like. I DO believe Sergachev will improve but the question isn't IF he'll improve the question is if he'll win a norris. Guys like Heiskanen aren't just 'ahead', he's at a conn smythe level performance. He's already a top end talent, not an emerging one.



To pull a random name out of a hat: It's like me saying Matt Dumba showed growth in his first 3 seasons...he should be winning norris any minute now.

Yeah, improving your game is key but just because you improve doesn't mean you'll ever be on that level. It's very difficult. It's no different than a kotkaniemi or any young talent. We see the improvement but to be THE GUY is not the same as being a core piece. Not everyone can do it.



He's a good player, no doubt. He's being played as an offensive #3 d-man currently. A lean towards PP over SH and all that and he's doing well. Nothing wrong with him.



Sure but I mentioned others.



That is a curious position to take about Hedman.

At same age Hedman played more per game.
Hedman played less on the PP per game than Sergachev but MORE on the PK than sergachev.
He had more points per game(lead TBL D in PPG), his PPG is higher than Sergachev's PPG this year despite Sergachev playing on better team with more PP time...
He didn't have much better players in front of him to protect him.

Are you really implying Sergachev, as a #3 is more impactful and well rounded than a guy who was playing more, making more points and killing more penalties while succeeding on a worse team?



I never compared the two. I said if Cheechoo(an extreme) can win then anything is possible. Sergachev is a better player in his position than Cheechoo was.

Granted, don't forget you compared Sergachev to Karlsson...a guy who had a norris at same age. Just saying...



Your assessment is based on fact a young player is improving well and doing good things.

Have you not seen hundreds of players improve over the years around the league only to NOT end up stars?

You have this idea that I said Sergachev is bad or won't amount to much. I'm just saying I don't think he will be the best d-man in the world in any given year.

You disagree, you think within the next 10-15 years(up to 37 I guess) Sergachev will be crowned best d-man in the world.

Like I said, it's always possible but the competition is stiff both from prime aged talents like Hedman and by young guys on the rise.

If you consider something like this ungrounded then so be it.

Well yes, if you shift the goal post on every point you previously made, of course you can reframe the entire argument...

1- is it reasonable to state that because some rookies outscored, or other young guys outplayed, or because other older dmen are currently better 22-year old Sergachev this season, he's unlikely to ever win a Norris. I say that's silly, and gave examples of several players who proved otherwise.

2- A 22 year old Sergachev is further along in his career development & impact than some recent Norris winners were at the same age.

3- "blue chip" players who show strong development in their game outside of the areas they were most advanced at as prospects is a positive reflection of maturity and commitment to improvement. Those attributes are "the rule" rather than the exception when looking at eventual Norris winners.

Those three assessments are grounded in very easily verifiable evidence.

The claim that "he's unlikely to ever win a Norris because I think Quinn, makar, heskanainen et. are better than him now.... Not so much.

Clarify it for you?
 

LyricalLyricist

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Well yes, if you shift the goal post on every point you previously made, of course you can reframe the entire argument...

1- is it reasonable to state that because some rookies outscored, or other young guys outplayed, or because other older dmen are currently better 22-year old Sergachev this season, he's unlikely to ever win a Norris. I say that's silly, and gave examples of several players who proved otherwise.

2- A 22 year old Sergachev is further along in his career development & impact than some recent Norris winners were at the same age.

3- "blue chip" players who show strong development in their game outside of the areas they were most advanced at as prospects is a positive reflection of maturity and commitment to improvement. Those attributes are "the rule" rather than the exception when looking at eventual Norris winners.

Those three assessments are grounded in very easily verifiable evidence.

The claim that "he's unlikely to ever win a Norris because I think Quinn, makar, heskanainen et. are better than him now.... Not so much.

Clarify it for you?

Not really. It seems you don't know the difference between something being possible and something being likely.

Sergachev is not the ONLY player getting better every year. If the only requirement was being talented and improving gradually year over year(until 22 for now) then a lot of players would be considered future stars.

That isn't enough to justify a norris caliber claim.

You are conveniently rephrasing what I said to avoid the reality. I am not just saying Heiskanen is 'further along', I am saying he might win a Conn Smythe, NOW.

Let's put all the back and forth aside so and answer this one question. If you were the habs and Sergachev was still on the team(or TBL, whatever you want) and Buffalo offered Dahlin for Sergachev, do you say no? If Dallas offered Heiskanen, do you say no?

Tell me with a straight face you'd reject a 1 for 1 on these guys and call me biased after. At most, you'll revert to some "Well sergachev has shown to have chemistry so we'll keep him" nonsense.

Right now those guys are better. Can Sergachev surpass them? Absolutely! Do I think it's likely he surpasses EVERYONE and ends up norris winner? No. I just don't. In Sergachev's defense only 1 person can win the norris at a time. It's not easy.
 
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cphabs

The 2 stooges….
Dec 21, 2012
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Takes like this make me wonder if ppl just forget or ignore history?

At one time, Phaneuf was clearly ahead of Weber...
Giordano & Rafalski were in Europe in their 20's with doubts they'd ever be NHL regulars, let alone top pairing...
Chara was a throw-in few batted an eyelash at...

What Sergachev is doing, right now at 22, suggests a Norris future is well within his reach. If anything, that looks more like a possibility based on his level of play an all around growth and progression as a dman to date, than it did when he was a highly rated prospect.

To suggest otherwise because other young dmen are putting up more points is a very short sighted take.
Well said
 

Miller Time

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Not really. It seems you don't know the difference between something being possible and something being likely.

Sergachev is not the ONLY player getting better every year. If the only requirement was being talented and improving gradually year over year(until 22 for now) then a lot of players would be considered future stars.

That isn't enough to justify a norris caliber claim.

You are conveniently rephrasing what I said to avoid the reality. I am not just saying Heiskanen is 'further along', I am saying he might win a Conn Smythe, NOW.

Let's put all the back and forth aside so and answer this one question. If you were the habs and Sergachev was still on the team(or TBL, whatever you want) and Buffalo offered Dahlin for Sergachev, do you say no? If Dallas offered Heiskanen, do you say no?

Tell me with a straight face you'd reject a 1 for 1 on these guys and call me biased after. At most, you'll revert to some "Well sergachev has shown to have chemistry so we'll keep him" nonsense.

Right now those guys are better. Can Sergachev surpass them? Absolutely! Do I think it's likely he surpasses EVERYONE and ends up norris winner? No. I just don't. In Sergachev's defense only 1 person can win the norris at a time. It's not easy.

Yup, goal posts move at your convenience... have fun with that.

instead of wasting time with so much reframing, why not simply take the time to read the posts you reply to and either choose to ignore, rebut directly (without completing changing the narrative) or admit you posted something that wasn't accurate... mistakes and misspeaking in a post is not exactly a big deal, nothing wrong with walking back a poorly framed comment.

There's a massive difference between what you initially said and what you're asking now... if you cna't tell the difference, not sure what to say :dunno:
 

cphabs

The 2 stooges….
Dec 21, 2012
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Not really. It seems you don't know the difference between something being possible and something being likely.

Sergachev is not the ONLY player getting better every year. If the only requirement was being talented and improving gradually year over year(until 22 for now) then a lot of players would be considered future stars.

That isn't enough to justify a norris caliber claim.

You are conveniently rephrasing what I said to avoid the reality. I am not just saying Heiskanen is 'further along', I am saying he might win a Conn Smythe, NOW.

Let's put all the back and forth aside so and answer this one question. If you were the habs and Sergachev was still on the team(or TBL, whatever you want) and Buffalo offered Dahlin for Sergachev, do you say no? If Dallas offered Heiskanen, do you say no?

Tell me with a straight face you'd reject a 1 for 1 on these guys and call me biased after. At most, you'll revert to some "Well sergachev has shown to have chemistry so we'll keep him" nonsense.

Right now those guys are better. Can Sergachev surpass them? Absolutely! Do I think it's likely he surpasses EVERYONE and ends up norris winner? No. I just don't. In Sergachev's defense only 1 person can win the norris at a time. It's not easy.
Lmao! He just turned 22 and Tampa has done an amazing job developing him. Also, he’s being mentored by Headman... as of right now, at barely 22? He can safely put up 40 points and drive a PP. He can also, like now, be an outstanding shutdown D. I don’t think a Norris is too much of stretch if he continues.
He also rag dolled Weber...
 

Miller Time

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Lmao! He just turned 22 and Tampa has done an amazing job developing him. Also, he’s being mentored by Headman... as of right now, at barely 22? He can safely put up 40 points and drive a PP. He can also, like now, be an outstanding shutdown D. I don’t think a Norris is too much of stretch if he continues.

and I wonder... can you state this AND recognize that there are other young dmen you'd prefer to have over Sergachev if given the choice?

Oddly, some posters can't carry seem to balance those two thoughts in their mind at the same time :laugh:
 

cphabs

The 2 stooges….
Dec 21, 2012
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and I wonder... can you state this AND recognize that there are other young dmen you'd prefer to have over Sergachev if given the choice?

Oddly, some posters can't carry seem to balance those two thoughts in their mind at the same time :laugh:
Absolutely! We will never get them though. We had Sergachev in our hand. Don’t worry! Drouin is still developing as a 25 year old that will turn 26 in March!
 

Miller Time

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Absolutely! We will never get them though. We had Sergachev in our hand. Don’t worry! Drouin is still developing as a 25 year old that will turn 26 in March!

Mete is the current one that concerns me...

While he's obviously not in the same category as Sergachev was, imo he's a young dman whose overall progression and play is much further ahead than many fans seem able to recognize. That progression piece (plus his size/stature) point to me a player who could easily grow into a very good, if not borderline elite top-4 dman.

People seem to struggle recognizing the nuances of deployment, progression, age, et. when evaluating players. What Sergachev is doing right now, is pretty damn impressive, and there is some indication that the mindset/commitment to improve aspect was observable back then...

Drouin, is an example of the exact opposite... immense talent that blinded a GM who, like some fans around here, looked only at the immediate stat line and highlights, while ignoring the context and other subtleties when evaluating the player...
 

OldCraig71

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Feb 2, 2009
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No one cares
and I wonder... can you state this AND recognize that there are other young dmen you'd prefer to have over Sergachev if given the choice?

Oddly, some posters can't carry seem to balance those two thoughts in their mind at the same time :laugh:
Ask this board if we would rather have Sergachev or Drouin, the majority would say Sergachev but there would still be those that would pick Drouin lol.
 

cphabs

The 2 stooges….
Dec 21, 2012
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Mete is the current one that concerns me...

While he's obviously not in the same category as Sergachev was, imo he's a young dman whose overall progression and play is much further ahead than many fans seem able to recognize. That progression piece (plus his size/stature) point to me a player who could easily grow into a very good, if not borderline elite top-4 dman.

People seem to struggle recognizing the nuances of deployment, progression, age, et. when evaluating players. What Sergachev is doing right now, is pretty damn impressive, and there is some indication that the mindset/commitment to improve aspect was observable back then...

Drouin, is an example of the exact opposite... immense talent that blinded a GM who, like some fans around here, looked only at the immediate stat line and highlights, while ignoring the context and other subtleties when evaluating the player...
Umm, your posts are wordy and convoluted. Steve Yserman traded Drouin because he was a noted head case. French too! We took it hook line and sinker.
 
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LyricalLyricist

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Yup, goal posts move at your convenience... have fun with that.

instead of wasting time with so much reframing, why not simply take the time to read the posts you reply to and either choose to ignore, rebut directly (without completing changing the narrative) or admit you posted something that wasn't accurate... mistakes and misspeaking in a post is not exactly a big deal, nothing wrong with walking back a poorly framed comment.

There's a massive difference between what you initially said and what you're asking now... if you cna't tell the difference, not sure what to say :dunno:

I agree, discussing with someone with your bias is pointless.

Norris trophy is awarded to the BEST d-man in the world in a given year. The best is a very high standard.
 
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LyricalLyricist

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Speaking of Sergachev, TBL have 5.3 mil in cap space available with 3 D signed for next season. If Sergachev is the stud(currently) people say he is, they'd need to make some moves to fit him and the other 2+ d-men. Also only 10 forwards signed but I don't anticipate they'd be expensive to re-sign or replace.
 

Kairi Zaide

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Aug 11, 2009
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i hate tva sports, but honestly... renaud has been epic to listen to in these playoffs whenever he's acting like he's amazed/shocked/etc
 

Miller Time

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I agree, discussing with someone with your bias is pointless.

Norris trophy is awarded to the BEST d-man in the world in a given year. The best is a very high standard.

Lol
Your posting history speaks for itself.

Yes, the best dman in the NHL, to be exact.
And as the simple facts highlight, many players rise to that level over time, a simple fact that seems too difficult to grasp for some.
 
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