Pre-Game Talk: St Louis Blues vs. Toronto Maple Leafs - Tues Jan 16th @ 7pm

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PromisedLand

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if teams are clogging up the blue line, its a wise move to dump it in no?

No they are not. Willy consistently gains zone entries.

And just in case suppose what you say is true then how come opposition gains some entries while we dump/tip-in and chase giving possession of the puck about 95%+ times?
 

PromisedLand

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or just making room for phaneuf's return

oh god i felt so dirty typing that

Shower, walk in a car wash, take some time in washing machine whatever please let’s not even joke about 7 mil cap hit pylon.

I’d be super ticked; if Homophobic Sluroof came back
 

rent free

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Or false pessimistic club. We’ve beaten teams like St.Louis before. There is no reason why we shouldn’t beat them given the talent in front.
By that logic we should have beaten every team. Our offence is overrated. It's streaky at best.
 

BertCorbeau

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No they are not. Willy consistently gains zone entries.

And just in case suppose what you say is true then how come opposition gains some entries while we dump/tip-in and chase giving possession of the puck about 95%+ times?

Can someone link me some stats on our zone entries/dump and chase stuff?

My observation since Matthews came back is that they've relied less on dumping and chasing. It also coincides with Nylander and Marner playing better as well. When both were slump they were not as effective at carrying the puck in Combined with Matthews injury I wonder if this was one reason for a change in strategy. Matthews/Nylander/Marner are the best players are carrying the play in. If they're struggling, they're less effective.

I think the dump/chase narrative has gotten a bit stale in the last few weeks from what I've seen from the team but would love to see some data to get an actual look at it.
 

PromisedLand

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Can someone link me some stats on our zone entries/dump and chase stuff?

My observation since Matthews came back is that they've relied less on dumping and chasing. It also coincides with Nylander and Marner playing better as well. When both were slump they were not as effective at carrying the puck in Combined with Matthews injury I wonder if this was one reason for a change in strategy. Matthews/Nylander/Marner are the best players are carrying the play in. If they're struggling, they're less effective.

I think the dump/chase narrative has gotten a bit stale in the last few weeks from what I've seen from the team but would love to see some data to get an actual look at it.

Look up zone entries; unfortunately there is no metric for dump-ins as far as I know. Am on the bus so can’t google and provide links

And the narrative is not getting old, Leafs dump in lose possession of the puck opposition transitions and gains leafs blue line way to easy!

And don’t even get me started on Babcock’s obsession with line matching even when trailing by 2 goals
 

BertCorbeau

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Look up zone entries; unfortunately there is no metric for dump-ins as far as I know. Am on the bus so can’t google and provide links

And the narrative is not getting old, Leafs dump in lose possession of the puck opposition transitions and gains leafs blue line way to easy!

And don’t even get me started on Babcock’s obsession with line matching even when trailing by 2 goals

I... I didn't even bring that up
 
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Leafs27

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I really hope they play well after this short break. I will actually be in attendance... my first Leaf game since the freaking lockout!
 

PromisedLand

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I... I didn't even bring that up

Tableau Public

look at the link above (little outdated - last saved Aug 22nd 2017)

you will notice for leafs best players in this category are MNMs and worst players are hyman and bozak. Unfortunately, cant find any zone entries data for this season, but my eye test has told me that there hasn't been much controlled

zone entries by the buds OR
zone exits with possession by the Leafs (friggen stretch passes)

and all of this is causing leafs to lose possession of the puck and then opposition transitions with speed and then we are caught on our heels. This is absolutely multiplied when we are trailing the game (not including the obsessive line matching by Babs)
 

BertCorbeau

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Tableau Public

look at the link above (little outdated - last saved Aug 22nd 2017)

you will notice for leafs best players in this category are MNMs and worst players are hyman and bozak. Unfortunately, cant find any zone entries data for this season, but my eye test has told me that there hasn't been much controlled

zone entries by the buds OR
zone exits with possession by the Leafs (friggen stretch passes)

and all of this is causing leafs to lose possession of the puck and then opposition transitions with speed and then we are caught on our heels. This is absolutely multiplied when we are trailing the game (not including the obsessive line matching by Babs)

Yeah I found that site too but it seems like last season's numbers. Was hoping for something more recent.
 

PromisedLand

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Yeah I found that site too but it seems like last season's numbers. Was hoping for something more recent.

I can't find anything recent for zone entries/exits and dump-ins either; but if you did some kind of qualitative analysis and asked yourself did the Leafs have more controlled zone entries/exits last season or this season the answer is pretty obvious IMO - if you have watched all the game especially the last 5 to 10 games (our record is 10 games 4W 2OTL for 10 points; that 0.5 hockey right there.... just not good enough)
 

Nithoniniel

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Can someone link me some stats on our zone entries/dump and chase stuff?
Tableau Public

Here's one for a limited sample of this season. I've also seen graphs detailing who did what in terms of entries and how successful they were. I haven't seen any that includes timeline info though, which it seems you want.

Tableau Public

There's another one that is interesting. You can look at games one by one to find a trend if you really want to get into it.
 
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PromisedLand

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Tableau Public

Here's one for a limited sample of this season. I've also seen graphs detailing who did what in terms of entries and how successful they were. I haven't seen any that includes timeline info though, which it seems you want.

Tableau Public

There's another one that is interesting. You can look at games one by one to find a trend if you really want to get into it.

Thanks! Now I am even more pissed lol

jusr look at Kucherov and Kane's stats for exits and especially entries compared to dump-ins

JVR is another tire-fire; a friggen dump-in king

holy Babs COME ON

EDIT:
  • Kucherov
  • Kane
  • Toews
  • Crosby
  • Malkin
  • Kessel
  • Matthews
All have less dump-ins compared to zone entries its really really really SMALL; . Reemer and Marleau are king of dump-ins, Bozak is just :facepalm: worthy

As a team Leafs DUMP IN more than enter zone with possession. Naz has seen a bigger change from last season to this season. Kadri has more dump-ins than carries - nobody tell me that Babs isn't running a dump and chase system. Its a friggen JOKE
 
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Budsfan

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DTXZKIqW4AAX_Ao.jpg:large

NHL Network‏Verified account @NHLNetwork 29m29 minutes ago
Will one of these guys take home the Norris Trophy? #NHLTonight

Rielly being considered for the Norris
 
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IPS

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Thanks! Now I am even more pissed lol

jusr look at Kucherov and Kane's stats for exits and especially entries compared to dump-ins

JVR is another tire-fire; a friggen dump-in king

holy Babs COME ON

EDIT:
  • Kucherov
  • Kane
  • Toews
  • Crosby
  • Malkin
  • Kessel
  • Matthews
All have less dump-ins compared to zone entries its really really really SMALL; . Reemer and Marleau are king of dump-ins, Bozak is just :facepalm: worthy

As a team Leafs DUMP IN more than enter zone with possession. Naz has seen a bigger change from last season to this season. Kadri has more dump-ins than carries - nobody tell me that Babs isn't running a dump and chase system. Its a friggen JOKE

We got lots of great guys for zone entries but we choose to do dump and chase to help out our main boys Hyman and Komarov :laugh:
 

PromisedLand

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We got lots of great guys for zone entries but we choose to do dump and chase to help out our main boys Hyman and Komarov :laugh:

Really man; and if Babs really want to employ dump/chase system then Lou needs to get to work:

LW/Marleau-Matthews-Hyman
LW/Marleau-Nylander-Kappy
Komarov-Kadri-Brown
Martin-GOAT-Leivo

There is absolutely no way JVR/Bozak are gonna be puck retrieval experts. Keep Komarov for PK and move on and if not then change the system to let them gain zone entries: and babs can stick with his status quo of

Hyman-Matthews-Willy (gain the zone and exit the zone with possession)
JVR-Bozak-Marner (one of Bozak/JVR will have to learn to carry the puck; it shouldn't always be Mitch)
Marleau-Kadri-Komarov (Marleau/Kadri have to get the opposition blue line and/or exit the zone with possession)
4th line whatever.....


Looking at how the big boys hardly dump in (Crosby, Malkin, Kane, Kucherov, Kessel, Toews etc..) it baffles me that we are actually playing the system for which we have no personnel.

Change the personnel OR
Change the system
 

BertCorbeau

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Really man; and if Babs really want to employ dump/chase system then Lou needs to get to work:

LW/Marleau-Matthews-Hyman
LW/Marleau-Nylander-Kappy
Komarov-Kadri-Brown
Martin-GOAT-Leivo

There is absolutely no way JVR/Bozak are gonna be puck retrieval experts. Keep Komarov for PK and move on and if not then change the system to let them gain zone entries: and babs can stick with his status quo of

Hyman-Matthews-Willy (gain the zone and exit the zone with possession)
JVR-Bozak-Marner (one of Bozak/JVR will have to learn to carry the puck; it shouldn't always be Mitch)
Marleau-Kadri-Komarov (Marleau/Kadri have to get the opposition blue line and/or exit the zone with possession)
4th line whatever.....


Looking at how the big boys hardly dump in (Crosby, Malkin, Kane, Kucherov, Kessel, Toews etc..) it baffles me that we are actually playing the system for which we have no personnel.

Change the personnel OR
Change the system

Settle down for a second. I know you're worked up about the stats from those links but I'm looking at them at it appears the data is incomplete. It may not based on all the games of the season. So I'd take it with a grain of salt.
 
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PromisedLand

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Settle down for a second. I know you're worked up about the stats from those links but I'm looking at them at it appears the data is incomplete. It may not based on all the games of the season. So I'd take it with a grain of salt.

dude even for the last season (link I had provided) it told the story. It is frustrating to watch games when we are trailing the game and then:
  • We dump and chase only to lose the possession of the puck; while other team transitions
  • Babcock keeps line matching
  • Sticks to the status-quo does not change lines when offense isn't coming and the team is chasing the game down a goal or two
It is absolutely infuriating to watch. What kind of lessons are being learned by the kids by employing such strategy anyway.....

Its not just the stats it is the eye tests as well. It is pretty straight forward; either get the personnel to play the dump/chase hockey (get rid of bozak, jvr) or change the system.

Doing the same thing again and again but expecting different results means what to you?
 

Suntouchable13

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dude even for the last season (link I had provided) it told the story. It is frustrating to watch games when we are trailing the game and then:
  • We dump and chase only to lose the possession of the puck; while other team transitions
  • Babcock keeps line matching
  • Sticks to the status-quo does not change lines when offense isn't coming and the team is chasing the game down a goal or two
It is absolutely infuriating to watch. What kind of lessons are being learned by the kids by employing such strategy anyway.....

Its not just the stats it is the eye tests as well. It is pretty straight forward; either get the personnel to play the dump/chase hockey (get rid of bozak, jvr) or change the system.

Doing the same thing again and again but expecting different results means what to you?

It's so frustrating. He's got all these talented players but he prefers to use guys like Komarov and Hyman instead. Until he unleashes the skilled guys, we are probably going nowhere. We've been stagnating for a while now, not just for a couple of weeks. You can still play well defensively while not sacrificing the offence. It's pitiful what we have been watching lately.
 

BertCorbeau

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dude even for the last season (link I had provided) it told the story. It is frustrating to watch games when we are trailing the game and then:
  • We dump and chase only to lose the possession of the puck; while other team transitions
  • Babcock keeps line matching
  • Sticks to the status-quo does not change lines when offense isn't coming and the team is chasing the game down a goal or two
It is absolutely infuriating to watch. What kind of lessons are being learned by the kids by employing such strategy anyway.....

Its not just the stats it is the eye tests as well. It is pretty straight forward; either get the personnel to play the dump/chase hockey (get rid of bozak, jvr) or change the system.

Doing the same thing again and again but expecting different results means what to you?

Man there's no reasoning with you, you're firmly set in your stance so I'm not going to bother engaging in this.
 

PromisedLand

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It's so frustrating. He's got all these talented players but he prefers to use guys like Komarov and Hyman instead. Until he unleashes the skilled guys, we are probably going nowhere. We've been stagnating for a while now, not just for a couple of weeks. You can still play well defensively while not sacrificing the offence. It's pitiful what we have been watching lately.

Yup! Just look at the hawks team that won the cup.

Kane was 20, Toews 21, Keith 26, Sharp 27, Ladd 23, Seabrook 24, Bolland 23 etc...

Chicago Blackhawks 2009-10 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

I wonder how many gud-pros led them to the cup. Hossa? who else? sure that team was loaded with talent but so are we if we play the "talented" guys.

I don't even know what the game plan is; it is almost a conspiracy theory thought process to even make sense of what babs is doing - basically to reduce the cap hits of MNMs; he is employing the system that will reduce their offense and then sign them cheap to give the team higher probability of making it at least once with more chances?

I am not even sure what bozak/jvr are still doing with the Leafs to be honest - when I see the dump/chase system
 
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