Square peg in a round hole

stuart5035

Registered User
Apr 9, 2017
328
338
It’s no wonder we are such a frustrated lot, we long time Leaf fans! We have glimpsed a powerful offensive juggernaut, we’ve risen out of our seats at their mercurial talent and charisma, marvelled at their flair and inventiveness.

But what have we witnessed for almost a year now, outside of the too few glimpses of their potential? A moribund uncertainty on the ice, an inability to start on time, constantly hemmed into their own zone, running around frantically, too often saved by Anderson. Spineless, neutered at times, standing around like deer would in headlights. Little sustained pressure in the offensive zone, playing on the periphery with few shots getting through, Corsi looking good without the results.

Then along comes the third period of the Chicago game, incredible sustained pressure, Chicago wilting, almost 60 shots. Several commentator remarked about what if they played like that all the time! Was this their true identity? Was the needing an all out attack to have a hope the gateway to how they should always play; to throw caution to the wind?

Kyle Dubas, Please unleash this team! You have played all your cards for this year and it is slipping away. From the Barrie contract, to the pending UFA Muzzin. You’re also using up one of the precious five years before Austin Matthews marches to unrestricted free agency. You cannot afford to wait, this is not a patient long term rebuild.

There is a noose around this team. You get a sense of it at Mitch Marners comments about a year ago at how the Leafs play better on the road because Babcock can’t over-coach. Or when you read recently about a rival team needing to “de babcock” a recent Leaf acquisition (the name escapes me) because of how complex the game had become to that player. There was an earlier hint too when the coach travelled a great distance to visit a couple of players in the summer a few years ago-coaches don’t do that! You must have shaken your head at his overuse of Marleau,?of Hainsey,?of Ceci and so on. Or of Komorov, Polak, etc. And what about the derogatory recent comments about Babcock by more than just a few ex Leafs! And now, the height of stupidity and stubbornness, the permanent loss of nine points due to mismanagement of backup goaltending, points that could mean loss of home ice advantage, at worse missing the playoffs. Do you not see your season in jeopardy due to a stubborn
anachronism of a coach, choking the lifeblood out of something that was meant to soar?

Take the plunge Kyle. It’s intimidating I know, there’s the salary, the distance the team has come the past few years, the pedigree. But what if the players flourish under a players coach, what if the players smiles return, what if they truly overwhelm their opponents in a non stop offensive frenzy? The way you say you’ve built them to?

You can wait, the schedule has been horrendous, and now you have the excuse of Marner being out a month. But this team should be a stallion, able to overcome this. Look ahead at November’s schedule, look at the improvement in Florida, Montreal, Buffalo. You might end up missing the playoffs.
 

NewEraGM

Registered User
Jun 19, 2010
3,534
2,895
Since December 1st 2018, leafs are 12th in the league. TB is 1st, Boston is 5th and Montreal is 9th. They would be W2 and would play the lightning in round 1. Then the winner of Boston vs. Montreal. The road will be so hard for the leafs anyway you cut it...

I have no idea what will happen with defense next year. I get the feeling it’ll be worse than this year unless sandin and Tim really come up and play amazing.
 

NewEraGM

Registered User
Jun 19, 2010
3,534
2,895
If we just look at calendar year 2019, the leafs would finish in 9th in the east and would miss the playoffs.

Atlantic:
TB
Boston
Montreal

Metro:
Carolina
Washington
NYI

Wildcards:
Pittsburgh
Philadelphia
 

NewEraGM

Registered User
Jun 19, 2010
3,534
2,895
What we have seen from the leafs this year is more than “just a slow start”. This has been going on for 12 months. Unless they find a way to turn around then they are a mediocre team at best and will finish between 12 and 16. The idea that this team is a contender is based on nothing
 

AreBe

This is the Real Are Be and not a Burner account!
Apr 1, 2013
880
313
Kyle Dubas, Please unleash this team! ..... You cannot afford to wait, this is not a patient long term rebuild.

There is a noose around this team. You get a sense of it at Mitch Marners comments about a year ago at how the Leafs play better on the road because Babcock can’t over-coach. Or when you read recently about a rival team needing to “de babcock” a recent Leaf acquisition (the name escapes me) because of how complex the game had become to that player. ....Do you not see your season in jeopardy due to a stubborn
anachronism of a coach, choking the lifeblood out of something that was meant to soar?

Take the plunge Kyle.
We need a new coach.
This is a shinny team held down by the coach.
We need position-less hockey- everyone is a deference man, a winger and a center- just skate! We need more imagination- more deference men in front of the opponents net, wingers at the point, centers getting back to blow up 2 on 1s. Wingers blocking shots on defense. This team can do it.

This team is built with three ingredients: Speed, speed and speed. Let's let it rip and let's see it!
 

ToMaLe

Registered User
Sep 24, 2002
4,847
2,482
Saskatchewan
It’s no wonder we are such a frustrated lot, we long time Leaf fans! We have glimpsed a powerful offensive juggernaut, we’ve risen out of our seats at their mercurial talent and charisma, marvelled at their flair and inventiveness.
Nice post bud, and accurate.
But what have we witnessed for almost a year now, outside of the too few glimpses of their potential? A moribund uncertainty on the ice, an inability to start on time, constantly hemmed into their own zone, running around frantically, too often saved by Anderson. Spineless, neutered at times, standing around like deer would in headlights. Little sustained pressure in the offensive zone, playing on the periphery with few shots getting through, Corsi looking good without the results.

Then along comes the third period of the Chicago game, incredible sustained pressure, Chicago wilting, almost 60 shots. Several commentator remarked about what if they played like that all the time! Was this their true identity? Was the needing an all out attack to have a hope the gateway to how they should always play; to throw caution to the wind?

Kyle Dubas, Please unleash this team! You have played all your cards for this year and it is slipping away. From the Barrie contract, to the pending UFA Muzzin. You’re also using up one of the precious five years before Austin Matthews marches to unrestricted free agency. You cannot afford to wait, this is not a patient long term rebuild.

There is a noose around this team. You get a sense of it at Mitch Marners comments about a year ago at how the Leafs play better on the road because Babcock can’t over-coach. Or when you read recently about a rival team needing to “de babcock” a recent Leaf acquisition (the name escapes me) because of how complex the game had become to that player. There was an earlier hint too when the coach travelled a great distance to visit a couple of players in the summer a few years ago-coaches don’t do that! You must have shaken your head at his overuse of Marleau,?of Hainsey,?of Ceci and so on. Or of Komorov, Polak, etc. And what about the derogatory recent comments about Babcock by more than just a few ex Leafs! And now, the height of stupidity and stubbornness, the permanent loss of nine points due to mismanagement of backup goaltending, points that could mean loss of home ice advantage, at worse missing the playoffs. Do you not see your season in jeopardy due to a stubborn
anachronism of a coach, choking the lifeblood out of something that was meant to soar?

Take the plunge Kyle. It’s intimidating I know, there’s the salary, the distance the team has come the past few years, the pedigree. But what if the players flourish under a players coach, what if the players smiles return, what if they truly overwhelm their opponents in a non stop offensive frenzy? The way you say you’ve built them to?

You can wait, the schedule has been horrendous, and now you have the excuse of Marner being out a month. But this team should be a stallion, able to overcome this. Look ahead at November’s schedule, look at the improvement in Florida, Montreal, Buffalo. You might end up missing the playoffs.

Nice post bud and accurate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: weems and Al14

GoonieFace

Registered User
Jun 24, 2013
7,193
6,889
The Matrix
Citing the Chicago game is a real poor example. Chicago is a pretty terrible team and they pretty much sat back after going up 4-1. To say the Leafs should play like that all the time is just not realistic. Good teams will not let them, and our core just decides to play whenever they want to, and if teams are tough on them, they take their toys and go home.
 
  • Like
Reactions: coupe93

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
40,105
9,975
We need a new coach.
This is a shinny team held down by the coach.
We need position-less hockey- everyone is a deference man, a winger and a center- just skate! We need more imagination- more deference men in front of the opponents net, wingers at the point, centers getting back to blow up 2 on 1s. Wingers blocking shots on defense. This team can do it.

This team is built with three ingredients: Speed, speed and speed. Let's let it rip and let's see it!

Yeah maybe we will see it and then we will see other teams trap and check us into mistake after mistake. I want to see the speed though because its fun to watch kinda lol
 

Nineteen67

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Dec 12, 2017
22,520
9,922
I wouldn’t put much stock into the Chicago game. If needed, at any point during that third period Toews, Kane, or Shaw could have grabbed Muzzin and beat him around again and the Leafs would have scurried back into their hiding spots.
 

Al14

Registered User
Jul 13, 2007
24,141
5,508
Can we just get a Babcock and Dubas thread and funnel people into them? None of these hot takes are ever unique, you don't deserve a thread.
Listen Kyle, you only replied becuase you don't like the message! Get off your duff and make this team a winner instead of replying to threads on HF that upset you. ;)
 

AreBe

This is the Real Are Be and not a Burner account!
Apr 1, 2013
880
313
Yeah maybe we will see it and then we will see other teams trap and check us into mistake after mistake. I want to see the speed though because its fun to watch kinda lol
High speed, Soviet Red Army, rolling 4 lines because the pace demands we do so is perhaps the best way to overcome the 10 on 6 problem the Canadian Branch Plant Division teams, such as the Leafs, have as the American Association of United States Ice Hockey Teams peruses its US TV deal and that quest mandates proving to the US networks they need not fear American ratings killing deep runs by Canadian teams. The fix is in, but it can be overcome by better talent, coaching, effort and crazy ass speed. San Antonio and the Raptors have won in the NBA , and the NBA unashamedly cooks the results for the benefit of the TV Broadcast partners for the good of the game, that is to say, the top 10 largest markets that have an obscene over-representation of the championships.
I wouldn’t put much stock into the Chicago game. If needed, at any point during that third period Toews, Kane, or Shaw could have grabbed Muzzin and beat him around again and the Leafs would have scurried back into their hiding spots.
Put more stock in tracking ten 8 game segments of the season. Get an average after 8 games and connect dots, get some graph and see which way the trends point, rather than one game analysis, which is not a statistically significant sample size to make analytics based- that is to say, "reasonable"- decisions on.
 

ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
73,611
38,970
Since December 1st 2018, leafs are 12th in the league. TB is 1st, Boston is 5th and Montreal is 9th. They would be W2 and would play the lightning in round 1. Then the winner of Boston vs. Montreal. The road will be so hard for the leafs anyway you cut it...

I have no idea what will happen with defense next year. I get the feeling it’ll be worse than this year unless sandin and Tim really come up and play amazing.
With half the roster turning over, all that matters is from October this year to present day, 19 games.
 

AreBe

This is the Real Are Be and not a Burner account!
Apr 1, 2013
880
313
Wait.............is this thread suggesting Babcock be replaced? That's brilliant, how come this has never come up before?

I am so glad you asked!

Because we, being Leafs Nation, are not that smart. Note the following:
1 Look at the freak-out on the wages being paid players. What is the cause of the freak-out- a failure to understand that in the salary cap era, you pay for what players will do in the future and not for cups won a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, as Leafs Nation would prefer

2, Look at the demands for toughness. Are you not amazed that it is controversial , and not a given, that toughness from the Leafs will lead to penalties in the playoffs because the rules are not called the same? Even after the series with Boston last year, there is still I would suggest vast majority who do not see that there is one set of rules for Boston (toughness ok) and for the Leafs (toughness not ok). This is controversial. It's not a given.

3, Fear of the Europeans. There are still many Leafs fans who would trade them away. Why? Because they displace and take jobs away from Good Canadian Kids. "Be best if they were just gone! That way, my kid could make millions!" Leafs Nation members believe., even though he sucks in comparison to the Europeans, that the Canadian should get the job. Leafs Nation would trade away a high skilled European to get a Canadian with less skill just to give the Canadian a job and to feel smug for having done so. Hart beat to trade Ivan Svensky for Patrick O'Thuggo

4, There are a lot of people in Leafs Nation that were involved in post house league, competitive organized hockey with a view to some NHL career, maybe even making it to the OHL. Canada's scandalous player development system does not churn out university graduates, like the NCAA does. They barely finish high school and perhaps do not even do that. Many of the most ardent Leafs Nation philosophers come cross as ill- educated, ignorant dinosaurs, and this is something that they celebrate as a badge of honour. In short, Leafs Nation celebrates its idiot philosophers, like Moron Man.

5, Analytics and the scientific method are criticized by Leafs Nation. Logic based and evidence based spreadsheet calculations are discounted by Leafs Nation. The Leafs keep hitting gold on draft-picks- something they have been traditionally terrible at, and why? Analytics. We are in the golden age of management now, and Leafs Nation wants to tear it asunder. We have an analytics department. Wow. Cutting edge big brained "math is hard" stuff going on, and we want to be rid of it.

In short, we are turning this into a Babcock must be replaced for 2 main reasons:
(1) Ignorant Leafs Nation does not see the need to replace a coach who does not fit the skill of the team and will not change his way to do so (He follows plus-minus, the most fluke based, useless stat, that it should not be used in analytics! and
(2) Leafs Nation celebrates its own idiocy and is proud of their faulty reasoning, which is something they arrogantly boast about. We can see this with the dinosaur views proudly held by many
 
Last edited:

AreBe

This is the Real Are Be and not a Burner account!
Apr 1, 2013
880
313
Listen Kyle, you only replied becuase you don't like the message! Get off your duff and make this team a winner instead of replying to threads on HF that upset you. ;)
Wouldn't it be worrisome if he actually poked around here?
Getting tips from Leafs Nation?
Only reason to hang around is to figure out what Moron Man wants, and then do the opposite.
 

Trapper

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
23,740
11,004
Wouldn't it be worrisome if he actually poked around here?
Getting tips from Leafs Nation?
Only reason to hang around is to figure out what Moron Man wants, and then do the opposite.
I think he wants another 11 million dollar forward, and he doesn’t want D and backup goalie.
Now go forth Mr. M and opposite.
 

GoonieFace

Registered User
Jun 24, 2013
7,193
6,889
The Matrix
I am so glad you asked!

Because we, being Leafs Nation, are not that smart. Note the following:
1 Look at the freak-out on the wages being paid players. What is the cause of the freak-out- a failure to understand that in the salary cap era, you pay for what players will do in the future and not for cups won a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, as Leafs Nation would prefer

2, Look at the demands for toughness. Are you not amazed that it is controversial , and not a given, that toughness from the Leafs will lead to penalties in the playoffs because the rules are not called the same? Even after the series with Boston last year, there is still I would suggest vast majority who do not see that there is one set of rules for Boston (toughness ok) and for the Leafs (toughness not ok). This is controversial. It's not a given.

3, Fear of the Europeans. There are still many Leafs fans who would trade them away. Why? Because they displace and take jobs away from Good Canadian Kids. "Be best if they were just gone! That way, my kid could make millions!" Leafs Nation members believe., even though he sucks in comparison to the Europeans, that the Canadian should get the job. Leafs Nation would trade away a high skilled European to get a Canadian with less skill just to give the Canadian a job and to feel smug for having done so. Hart beat to trade Ivan Svensky for Patrick O'Thuggo

4, There are a lot of people in Leafs Nation that were involved in post house league, competitive organized hockey with a view to some NHL career, maybe even making it to the OHL. Canada's scandalous player development system does not churn out university graduates, like the NCAA does. They barely finish high school and perhaps do not even do that. Many of the most ardent Leafs Nation philosophers come cross as ill- educated, ignorant dinosaurs, and this is something that they celebrate as a badge of honour. In short, Leafs Nation celebrates its idiot philosophers, like Moron Man.

5, Analytics and the scientific method are criticized by Leafs Nation. Logic based and evidence based spreadsheet calculations are discounted by Leafs Nation. The Leafs keep hitting gold on draft-picks- something they have been traditionally terrible at, and why? Analytics. We are in the golden age of management now, and Leafs Nation wants to tear it asunder. We have an analytics department. Wow. Cutting edge big brained "math is hard" stuff going on, and we want to be rid of it.

In short, we are turning this into a Babcock must be replaced for 2 main reasons:
(1) Ignorant Leafs Nation does not see the need to replace a coach who does not fit the skill of the team and will not change his way to do so (He follows plus-minus, the most fluke based, useless stat, that it should not be used in analytics! and
(2) Leafs Nation celebrates its own idiocy and is proud of their faulty reasoning, which is something they arrogantly boast about. We can see this with the dinosaur views proudly held by many

Huh?
 

willmma

Registered User
Jan 5, 2017
3,180
4,058
The take away from the Chicago game is that the team, and specifically Austin. He really wanted a comeback win. Its not just the 60 shots, it is the hunger to win

I hope we can carry the hunger to win to future games.
 

AreBe

This is the Real Are Be and not a Burner account!
Apr 1, 2013
880
313
Leafs Nation is not that smart: demands for toughness not realizing it is a demand for a penalty box parade in the playoffs, demanding that Dubas get fired because of the golden age of management he has brought to the team, a failure to understand that you do not break the bank to bring in past their prime players here in a salary cap era but instead play players on the upswing of thier career.
In short: Leafs Nation is a pretty stupid group of people .
 

GoonieFace

Registered User
Jun 24, 2013
7,193
6,889
The Matrix
Leafs Nation is not that smart: demands for toughness not realizing it is a demand for a penalty box parade in the playoffs, demanding that Dubas get fired because of the golden age of management he has brought to the team, a failure to understand that you do not break the bank to bring in past their prime players here in a salary cap era but instead play players on the upswing of thier career.
In short: Leafs Nation is a pretty stupid group of people .

So, the Leafs and Bruins played in the 1st round last year. The PP opportunites were 16-16, so your narrative is garbage. Your idealistic notion of a team with just speed will never work in the playoffs, like it or not. When the checking gets tighter, speed can be neutralized. Thats when you need guys willing to fight through checks and not just turn away.

Hockey has been played on the same size rink since forever. Players have gotten bigger and faster, yet the rink size is still the same. Although speed is a great asset, you need more than that.

All Dubas has done is gotten steamrolled in all contract negotiations and handcuff the team to the point we cannot even roster a full team or a reliable back-up goalie.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad