Sportsnet Rumor: NHL to buy Thrashers and move them to Winnipeg?

[Badger36]

LOL...now the Thrashers are moving to Winnipeg? Ok...sure...whatever.

 

[headsigh]

 

[BigFatCat999]

Riiiiiight. I'll believe when I see the team skating in Manitoba.

 

[W Jets fan]

The last time they did that, wasn't it the Atlanta Flames to the Calgary Flames...
Winnipeg Thrashers... How does that sound?

If this happens, what a ****ing joke the League is. Fight tooth and nail to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix, and then go and move the Thrashers themselves. Atlanta is the team that they should fight to keep. If the NHL loses the Thrashers, you can say good-bye forever to Atlanta as an NHL city... two teams relocated.

I doubt they would be called the Winnipeg Thrashers as a Thrasher is the state bird for Georgia.

 

[Magnus Fulgur]

The timing issue doesn't work to say that Atlanta Spirit is desperate to sell. They've just come out and said they know they couldn't get investors because of the lawsuit and now it has opened up for suitors.

Again, The Hawks have HORRIBLE attendance (24th in the NBA! at 14,139) even though they're a playoff team and have improved every year for the past five!

The Thrashers have HORRIBLE attendance too (27th in the NHL at 12,746). If they make the playoffs this year, expect The Atlanta Thrashers to outdraw the Hawks, easily. Lately, they have been! No time to be selling The Thrashers, unless you want to sell everything (Hawks and the Arena).

 

[Mike in MN]

The timing issue doesn't work to say that Atlanta Spirit is desperate to sell. They've just come out and said they know they couldn't get investors because of the lawsuit and now it has opened up for suitors.

Again, The Hawks have HORRIBLE attendance (24th in the NBA! at 14,139) even though they're a playoff team and have improved every year for the past five!

The Thrashers have HORRIBLE attendance too (27th in the NHL at 12,746). If they make the playoffs this year, expect The Atlanta Thrashers to outdraw the Hawks, easily. Lately, they have been! No time to be selling The Thrashers, unless you want to sell everything (Hawks and the Arena).

Quit bringing logic and facts into this gossip session on a abstract rumor!

 

[leafs4cup]

This has always been the main issue. Not whether or not Atlanta should survive. The NHL will do what it takes to create the best partnership with Thomson. If it means The Thrashers die in Atlanta, the NHL will take the hit. I think they'd let it happen to NYI too, or even NJ. But the fact is Atlanta has the best management and young players in place of the vulnerable teams. If I wanted to buy a franchise and move it, it would 100% be the Thrashers.

You are exactly correct IMO toxostoma,I do think their is more to this TNSE and Thompson having the next available team.It is all the intangibles that he would bring to the NHL and their business.It,s nice to have millionares in the club,but to have multi Billionares is another story.People like Thompson have pull in the business world hence the TNSE professional manner in their staying in the background and being patient.If one of the richest people in the world wants on your team,sorry all you anti winnipeg people small market etc etc. the NHL will make room for him one way or another IMO!

 

[W Jets fan]

The timing issue doesn't work to say that Atlanta Spirit is desperate to sell. They've just come out and said they know they couldn't get investors because of the lawsuit and now it has opened up for suitors.

Again, The Hawks have HORRIBLE attendance (24th in the NBA! at 14,139) even though they're a playoff team and have improved every year for the past five!

The Thrashers have HORRIBLE attendance too (27th in the NHL at 12,746). If they make the playoffs this year, expect The Atlanta Thrashers to outdraw the Hawks, easily. Lately, they have been! No time to be selling The Thrashers, unless you want to sell everything (Hawks and the Arena).

The owners will tell fans what they want to hear

 

[Fugu]

What did we learn from the Moyes-Balsillie attempted transaction and Coyotes bankruptcy case, Jeffrey? That Moyes owned the right to an NHL franchise in the Phoenix market place only; that Moyes could not sell the Coyotes for relocation to another market without NHL approval; that the NHL considers other markets to be the NHL`s opportunities.

It is similar with Atlanta. The Thrashers ownership owns the rights to an NHL franchise in the Atlanta market place. The Thrashers are not likely worth that much in the Atlanta market place. Can the Atlanta Spirit Group turn around and sell the team for relocation anywhere? Perhaps not. They own the rights to an NHL franchise in Atlanta. Hence, the NHL could buy the Thrashers from Atlanta Spirit for the going market rate in Atlanta and sell the team for relocation and make a profit on the flip. By doing so, the NHL would underline to all owners that the NHL`s collective ownership controls and profits from relocation of NHL franchises, not the individual owners.

GHOST

This sounds plausible, but did previous relocations go through a similar mechanism? I think the league approved the moves and new owners, but never actually acquired the teams. It seems an unnecessary step as they'd have to get a line of credit, close on the sale, then re-sell. Some unnecessary legal fees too (and perhaps tax implications).

Now, what Sportsnet may have picked up is the NHL's involvement in paying bills for some franchises. I've seen a few names bandied about, but nothing that can be pinned down just yet.

If this particular rumor doesn't gain much traction, we'll probably just go back to the ATL and WPG threads, seeing we have both.

 

[Winnipeg Jets]

It would be awesome but I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Bucky_Hoyt]

I think the reason why the NHL would fight tooth and claw for markets like Phoenix, Florida, Tampa, Nashville, Columbus and Carolina is simply because each of those markets have the NHL as the anchor tenant for their respective arenas. In Atlanta, that's not the case; they share with the Hawks.

Will the Thrashers end up moving? Who really knows but, even with slim odds, they are highest on that list.

The only other market with arena issues is currently the Islanders though the Oilers and Red Wings are starting to kick the tires on the idea of new diggs. Every other market has newer or renovated or soon to be renovated arenas. It currently stands at just under 2/3 of arenas in use having the NHL as their anchor tenants.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

It would be awesome but I'll believe it when I see it.

I think everyone is forgetting GB is not going to allow Atlanta leave. If he did he would have to start to admit his mistakes.

 

[OG6ix]

It's sportsnet.. they are not good at reporting well any sport outside MMA and Baseball (due to the fact that they have sources from the US).

Look, they have Doug Mclean and Nick Kypreos... nuff said.

 

[Killion]

It's sportsnet.. they are not good at reporting well any sport outside MMA and Baseball (due to the fact that they have sources from the US).Look, they have Doug Mclean and Nick Kypreos... nuff said.

^^^ Ditto. What he said. And please no. Not again.

 

[HamiltonFan]

See what I wrote above. If there is any truth to this rumour, I would think the reason for the flip would be twofold: a) so that the NHL can profit from the difference between the current value of a franchise in Atlanta and the amount TNSE is willing to pay for a franchise in Winnipeg (say $130 MM in Atlanta and $170 MM in Winnipeg: NHL nets $50 MM) and b) to underscore what the NHL fought for in the Phoenix bankruptcy case: that the NHL`s franchises are granted for specific territories only; that any new territories are the exclusive market opportunity of the NHL; that existing owners can not sell their teams for relocation to other territories without the NHL`s approval; that the NHL as a whole should benefit from the difference between the value of a franchise in an existing territory vs. a relocation territory.

GHOST

Your overall analysis of the situation is right on, but I don't think the value of the thrashers in atlanta is anywhere near $130 million. I'd say the real value is less than zero. The thrashers macro numbers are similar to phoenix, in that they lose about $20- 25 million per year. This includes the $14- 15 million annual welfare payment also known as revenue sharing. Without the artificial revenue sharing component, the thrashers lose about $40 million per year, every year. Why would anyone want to invest in this business model? The answer is that nobody does. Also, revenue sharing is relatively new. Who's to say it's going to continue? The annual $25 million loss could balloon to $40 million in a hurry. Do you think that Donald Fehr is in favor of this bettman revenue sharing business model which subsidizes money losing teams, and has the effect of keeping overall nhl revenue down (and therefore overall players salaries), when there are multiple Canadian cities chomping at the bit that can actually make money, thereby raising overall nhl revenue and thus raising player salaries?
Getting back to the thrashers being worth zero, there are 2 recent examples that show nhl teams being worth zero, or less than zero. The great florida giveaway by cohen in miami, where he threw the keys on the table and simply handed over his majority stake in the panthers free of charge to his minority shareholders shows the true value of the panthers. ZILCH. How much longer can they keep passing the buck like this in miami? Probably not much longer.
The 2nd example is of course our beloved phoenix situation, in which $197 million in subsidies is required for a $150 million purchase price. Net value of coyotes in phoenix is -47 million dollars.
If we generously value the thrashers at zero, and bettman can
get $170 mil from winnipeg, then theres a potential $170 million profit for the nhl. I'm not saying that bettman will get the thrashers for zero, at least not publicly, as that wouldn't look good. What would likely happen is that behind bettmans famous closed door, he will get the thrashers for a very cheap price, but then proceed to fudge the numbers and use smoke and mirrors to make it look like he paid a decent price for the thrashers before flipping them to winnipeg.

 

[Whileee]

Quit bringing logic and facts into this gossip session on a abstract rumor!

Just to be clear, the rumour did not originate with anyone on this Board. It was put out there by John Shannon of Sportsnet, who doesn't seem to have an axe to grind vis-a-vis about a team in Winnipeg or Atlanta. He said that he had personally heard a lot of discussion about this pursuant to the BOG meeting in December, to the extent that it prompted him to send an email to Daly to see if he could confirm it. So, either Shannon is lying about what he has heard (highly unlikely), or his sources are unreliable, or they are just putting one over on him. But you can't really blame posters on this site for developing this "gossip".

 

[TRVIPERS]

I doubt they would be called the Winnipeg Thrashers as a Thrasher is the state bird for Georgia.

http://www.winnipegthrashers.com/

 

[peter sullivan]

I would add that it might be a timing issue. If the Atlanta owners are desperate to sell, and the TNSE group want to prepare earlier than the end of the season, then it makes sense for the NHL to make the initial purchase, maintain some plausible deniability that the team is relocating for the rest of this season, and then complete the sales transaction after the season.

if we go back to the rumours from a year ago, it is possible that the owners of atlanta wanted out then but the timing may not have been right.

its possible that last year the NHL wanted TNSE as as a fall back for the coyotes situation, so the deal was brokered between the league and atlanta spirit instead of directly between the two owners to buy time.

this set up would allow the league to make guarantees that they could not otherwise....atlanta can proceed knowing their team is sold, winnipeg can proceed knowing they will get their team.....while allowing each player time to get their houses in order.....

by getting the extra year, glendale has time to find a buyer, atlanta has time to end their court case and winnipeg has time to prepare for the team.

it is very logical....this might be why the NHL allowed glendale the extra year to find an owner....they had purchased a year of coverage anyways between the other two partners in the transaction....glendale gets worked out...no longer being needed as insurance for the NHL, TNSE is officially allowed to take atlanta.

its quite possible that having this guarantee to purchase atlanta provided the impetus for their ownership resolution....the timing is curious.

 

[Mathradio]

I can't see it happening, at least not right now.

It's only been a week since the NHL has been legally able to sell the Coyotes to TNSE. Until that situation is resolved, I don't think rumors of any other team moving to Winnipeg hold much merit.

If TNSE brought the Thrashers to Winnipeg then Detroit would play in the Eastern Conference.

 

[blokeyhighlander]

Winnipeg Gray Owls.

 

[peter sullivan]

This has always been the main issue. Not whether or not Atlanta should survive. The NHL will do what it takes to create the best partnership with Thomson. If it means The Thrashers die in Atlanta, the NHL will take the hit. I think they'd let it happen to NYI too, or even NJ. But the fact is Atlanta has the best management and young players in place of the vulnerable teams. If I wanted to buy a franchise and move it, it would 100% be the Thrashers.

this is absolutely correct.....when an ownership group that includes the 20th richest man on earth approaches you and says he wants to part of your business, you find room for him....im convinced that we would not be having this conversation if TNSE didnt include thomson.

theNHL probably would have been happy to allow him to purchase the coyotes but there was a very stubborn government there not willing to allow that.....that does not exist in atlanta....

the NHL has a choice....allow one of your weak teams to move, or shut out the most desireable owner possible.....it seems that the attraction of his influence is enough to overcome the NHL's traditional 'no relocation at all cost' mantra.

 

[cbcwpg]

If TNSE brought the Thrashers to Winnipeg then Detroit would play in the Eastern Conference.

I'm sure Detroit is going.. "sell the team, sell the team ". Nothing would make Detroit happier than to be back in the East. Get back to playing Montreal, Toronto, Boston, and the NYR more.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Your overall analysis of the situation is right on, but I don't think the value of the thrashers in atlanta is anywhere near $130 million. I'd say the real value is less than zero. The thrashers macro numbers are similar to phoenix, in that they lose about $20- 25 million per year. This includes the $14- 15 million annual welfare payment also known as revenue sharing. Without the artificial revenue sharing component, the thrashers lose about $40 million per year, every year. Why would anyone want to invest in this business model? The answer is that nobody does. Also, revenue sharing is relatively new. Who's to say it's going to continue? The annual $25 million loss could balloon to $40 million in a hurry. Do you think that Donald Fehr is in favor of this bettman revenue sharing business model which subsidizes money losing teams, and has the effect of keeping overall nhl revenue down (and therefore overall players salaries), when there are multiple Canadian cities chomping at the bit that can actually make money, thereby raising overall nhl revenue and thus raising player salaries?
Getting back to the thrashers being worth zero, there are 2 recent examples that show nhl teams being worth zero, or less than zero. The great florida giveaway by cohen in miami, where he threw the keys on the table and simply handed over his majority stake in the panthers free of charge to his minority shareholders shows the true value of the panthers. ZILCH. How much longer can they keep passing the buck like this in miami? Probably not much longer.
The 2nd example is of course our beloved phoenix situation, in which $197 million in subsidies is required for a $150 million purchase price. Net value of coyotes in phoenix is -47 million dollars.
If we generously value the thrashers at zero, and bettman can
get $170 mil from winnipeg, then theres a potential $170 million profit for the nhl. I'm not saying that bettman will get the thrashers for zero, at least not publicly, as that wouldn't look good. What would likely happen is that behind bettmans famous closed door, he will get the thrashers for a very cheap price, but then proceed to fudge the numbers and use smoke and mirrors to make it look like he paid a decent price for the thrashers before flipping them to winnipeg.

Everyone quotes all these numbers about teams losing money yet, besides with phoenix, does anyone have any ACTUAL numbers from say something like audited financial statements of the entire operation? No? Then guess what, all this about the numbers is pure BS. No one has any real clue as to any teams' true profit and loss, especially when they may be part of a larger financial group.

The owners didn't even want to pen their books years ago during the lockout and even then it was found that hockey teams lost money because they put revenues into other non-hockey entities, which is why you have the revenue calculation including things like arena concessions, etc.

if we go back to the rumours from a year ago, it is possible that the owners of atlanta wanted out then but the timing may not have been right.

its possible that last year the NHL wanted TNSE as as a fall back for the coyotes situation, so the deal was brokered between the league and atlanta spirit instead of directly between the two owners to buy time.

this set up would allow the league to make guarantees that they could not otherwise....atlanta can proceed knowing their team is sold, winnipeg can proceed knowing they will get their team.....while allowing each player time to get their houses in order.....

by getting the extra year, glendale has time to find a buyer, atlanta has time to end their court case and winnipeg has time to prepare for the team.

it is very logical....this might be why the NHL allowed glendale the extra year to find an owner....they had purchased a year of coverage anyways between the other two partners in the transaction....glendale gets worked out...no longer being needed as insurance for the NHL, TNSE is officially allowed to take atlanta.

its quite possible that having this guarantee to purchase atlanta provided the impetus for their ownership resolution....the timing is curious.

That would be great but the lawsuit in Atlanta has been going on for years and predicting when a lawsuit would actually end is like predicting what crazy thing Mark Cuban will do or when the islanders are going to win.

Atlanta will not be going anywhere. They do not need government subsidies to keep going, their market area is several times larger than any of the other markets mentioned and I do not think that the NHL will abandon one of the largest markets in the US if they wouldn't abandon the little town of glendale.

 

[King Woodballs]

Another day another team moving to winnipeg
Next week the blue jackets will be moving

 

[peter sullivan]

That would be great but the lawsuit in Atlanta has been going on for years and predicting when a lawsuit would actually end is like predicting what crazy thing Mark Cuban will do or when the islanders are going to win.

Atlanta will not be going anywhere. They do not need government subsidies to keep going, their market area is several times larger than any of the other markets mentioned and I do not think that the NHL will abandon one of the largest markets in the US if they wouldn't abandon the little town of glendale.

my point was that having a guarantee that the team was sold for whatever amount may have allowed the players in the lawsuit to settle their differences...big payouts can be a strong catalyst.

i wouldnt put my eggs in the 'the NHL would never abandon atlanta' basket as the only evidence that they are not going anywhere....my argument that they would never say no to david thomson is equally as compelling.

the only reason the coyotes were not moved was government subsidies....they would have never found an owner otherwise...similar to how the atlanta guys are unable to now.

all it takes is atlanta spirit finding a $170m cheque more attractive than a $10m annual loss.