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trentmccleary

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Patrick - Flames Fan said:
First of all Spezza has not proven to be a #1 center. You can ALSO add the fact that he is SOFT as well. You can also state that Kovo IS a proven #1 LW and also a position Ottawa has lacked for a while.

How do I put this?
How many elite, definite 1st line LW's are there in the NHL? ... 5? maybe 10?
Lots of teams do without it. Few try to make the finals without a #1 center.
 

HuskyFlames

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And the attack of the Senator fans and the "our players are the msot important" continue in this thread. Go figure.
 

Wondercarrot

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I really don't see how you don't get it....seriously, how do you not understand what everyone here is saying to you.
 

HuskyFlames

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Wondercarrot said:
I really don't see how you don't get it....seriously, how do you not understand what everyone here is saying to you.

Cause everyone that says it is a SENATORS fan. Why would you not want the best established player for your team?
 

littleHossa

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Patrick - Flames Fan said:
Cause everyone that says it is a SENATORS fan. Why would you not want the best established player for your team?
He probably described why he doesn't understand, he can't comprehend arguments, we have 3 1st line RWers, a center would do us good and make them better and he's progressing fast, but he just knows that Kovakchuk's hype>Spezza's hype.
 

HuskyFlames

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littleHossa said:
He probably described why he doesn't understand, he can't comprehend arguments, we have 3 1st line RWers, a center would do us good and make them better and he's progressing fast, but he just knows that Kovakchuk's hype>Spezza's hype.

For the last time, Kova > Spezza and even Havlat. In that case, you team would gain Kova and a new center in return for trading Spezza for Kova and then you could trade Havlat for an upcoming, or established top center.
 

littleHossa

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Patrick - Flames Fan said:
For the last time, Kova > Spezza and even Havlat. In that case, you team would gain Kova and a new center in return for trading Spezza for Kova and then you could trade Havlat for an upcoming, or established top center.
Yeah whatever, we have enough posts so you can have all the reasons drilled in your head. and Havlat is a winger just like Kova, who can also play LW, and last I remember... Spezza is that "upcoming, or established top center" that Havlat could fetch us. We trade two fan favourites with untapped potential for Kova and some other center, a latteral move that screws up chemistry. And maybe you should check what Kova is doing right now with the RSL and where Spezza is with his AHL club, who's the leader?
 

HuskyFlames

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littleHossa said:
Yeah whatever, we have enough posts so you can have all the reasons drilled in your head. and Havlat is a winger just like Kova, who can also play LW, and last I remember... Spezza is that "upcoming, or established top center" that Havlat could fetch us. We trade two fan favourites with untapped potential for Kova and some other center, a latteral move that screws up chemistry. And maybe you should check what Kova is doing right now with the RSL and where Spezza is with his AHL club, who's the leader?

OMG comparing the AHL to top russian team. :lol

Plus, how is it a lateral movement when Kova > Spezza OR Havlat?
 

Air

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For the last time, Kova > Spezza and even Havlat. In that case, you team would gain Kova and a new center in return for trading Spezza for Kova and then you could trade Havlat for an upcoming, or established top center.

Putting all the bickering aside, does ANYBODY think that's even remotely realistic?
 

Dr.Sens(e)

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Kovo is the better player and certainly more valuable at this point, but there is merit to the idea that Spezza is more sorely needed in Ottawa. Actually, we probably need another center in the next year or two, so moving Spezza under any conditions really doesn't make much sense. The idea of swapping him for Kovo and then making other trades to fill other holes makes sense in a video game or sim league, but not really in the NHL. And Kovalchuk isn't really what Ottawa is missing (although we'd love to have him of course). Ottawa has more goal scoring on the wing than any team in the league, and Hossa and Kovalchuk actually play a similar style (to a certain degree). But neither is going to drop the gloves or lay the big open ice hit to turn a playoff series around.

Spezza will be Ottawa's top center next year and probably score 70 points. Kovalchuk will probably out produce him next year amd there is no question Ilya will most likely score more goals over his career, but it wouldn't surprise me if Spezza has 3 or 4 different 40+ goal scorers on his line over his career. He really does make the players around him that much better. Right now, that is more 'potential' than reality, but we've already seen enough to know we have at least an Adam Oates on our hands. The question Sens fans really don't have the answer to is whether we have something even better.
 

Taxman

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Man.Utd said:
Give Spezza Kovalchuk's minutes and pair him with Heatley (a playmaker of Spezza's calibre would thrive with him) and their numbers wouldn't be too far apart. Is there a gap between the two? Definatly. It's not huge however.

Kovalchuk hasn't played on the same line with Heatley since 2002, their rookie years.
 

Egil

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I still maintain that if Kovolchuk and Spezza were traded on draft day (so Ottawa gets Kovolchuk and Atlanta gets Spezza) that Spezza would be considered the "better" player at this point. There is absolutely no way that Ottawa keeps Kovolchuk around his rookie season, as his defense was worse than Spezza's (which was very poor). That simply DOES NOT FLY on top teams in the NHL, especially a team that doesn't have problems scoring.

Until both these players are in their mid twenties (3-5 years from now) it is NOT plausible to use their current points, production, etc to compare them, as their situations, litterally, could not be more different from a prospects perspective. A horrible expansion team compared to a team that wins the president's trophy.

BTW, does anyone know of any other top prospect going to a really good team and not some bottom feeder? It would be interesting to see what their progression was like, but I can't find any.
 

HuskyFlames

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Egil said:
BTW, does anyone know of any other top prospect going to a really good team and not some bottom feeder? It would be interesting to see what their progression was like, but I can't find any.

Eric Lindros was traded to a very good team and look how he did.
 

Nimrods Son

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Canadian Time

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Patrick - Flames Fan said:
Eric Lindros was traded to a very good team and look how he did.

Was he? The Flyers had missed the playoffs the three years previous before Eric got there and were last in their division. They missed the playoffs the next two years too. This was the lowest point in the history of the Flyers' franchise, you couldn't be more wrong. Got any more?
 
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HuskyFlames

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the doctor said:
Was he? The Flyers had missed the playoffs the three years previous before Eric got there and were last in their division. They missed the playoffs the next two years too. This was the lowest point in the history of the Flyers' franchise, you couldn't be more wrong. Got any more?

How was it the lowest point in Flyer history? Sicne Lindros was drafted the team went up right away. How about this than. For those 3 bad years before Lindros was drafted, Philly was about 74ish (average) in points for a season. Then all of a sudden they draft Lindros and the following year they are in the mid 80s.

First year with Lindros - 83 points (previous year 75)
than 80 points, than 60 (short season, finished 1st in their divison).

So with lindros, in 3 years since beign drafted he improved the team his first year and then in 3 years helped his team to be the best team in their division.

Now back onto topic, lets continue about Spezza vs Kovo.
 

YellHockey*

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Patrick - Flames Fan said:
How was it the lowest point in Flyer history? Sicne Lindros was drafted the team went up right away. How about this than. For those 3 bad years before Lindros was drafted, Philly was about 74ish (average) in points for a season. Then all of a sudden they draft Lindros and the following year they are in the mid 80s.

First year with Lindros - 83 points (previous year 75)
than 80 points, than 60 (short season, finished 1st in their divison).

So with lindros, in 3 years since beign drafted he improved the team his first year and then in 3 years helped his team to be the best team in their division.

Why don't you just fess up that you got schooled?

You said that Lindros was traded to a good team when in reality he got traded to a last place team. You didn't say that he got traded to a team that became good.

As for the 8 point jump in the standing for the Flyers after they traded for him, that's not a very big accomplishment. First, the Flyers got to beat up on a couple of brand new expansion teams, including the worst one of all time. Second, the NHL expanded the schedule by four games.
 

HuskyFlames

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BlackRedGold said:
Why don't you just fess up that you got schooled?

You said that Lindros was traded to a good team when in reality he got traded to a last place team. You didn't say that he got traded to a team that became good.

As for the 8 point jump in the standing for the Flyers after they traded for him, that's not a very big accomplishment. First, the Flyers got to beat up on a couple of brand new expansion teams, including the worst one of all time. Second, the NHL expanded the schedule by four games.

I will admit I thought the flyers were better but Lindros did have an impediate positive impact, but that is for another thread. Now back onto the original topic please.
 

trentmccleary

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Lindros was a better prospect than either Spezza or Kovalchuk.

Now what topic were you talking about?
Yours? ... that Kovalchuk is indeed better than Spezza
Or ours? ... that Spezza makes more sense for our team right now?

How about I just assume ours...

Let's look at the composition of our team: Hossa RW, Alfredsson RW, Havlat RW.
Adding Kovalchuk doesn't seem like a potential problem does it? But wait... why do we continually play inferior wingers on the left side? Why does Atlanta split up Heatley and Kovalchuk?

Why was this a good move:
92-93: Khymlev (a nobody) - Lafontaine (95 assists) - Mogilny (76 goals)
95-96: Gelinas- Ronning/Linden- Mogilny (55 goals).... (Bure = 15 GP)

While this was a bad move:
96-97: Mogilny (31 goals)- ..... - Bure (23 goals)

Diminishing returns.
2 x 40 goal scorers on the same line rarely equals 80 goals.
Why? ... probably for the same reason that our RW's consistently outshoot our LW's by about twice as many shots. (Kind of like how Kovalchuk doubled the shot count of either Kozlov or MacEachern).
So we have a choice between the 1st overall pick who will underachieve, cause one of our other players to underachieve or both. Or we end up in the "horrible" situation of getting stuck with Spezza... who will fit better and improve our offense.
 

Nimrods Son

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why is everyone so high on Spezza, he's right up there with Marc Savaard and Rico Fata. Look at his point totals.
 

Nimrods Son

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good play on my username

where is my mind? I've gotta broken face, tame by superhero named tony
 

Murphy*

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Patrick - Flames Fan said:
I will admit I thought the flyers were better but Lindros did have an impediate positive impact, but that is for another thread. Now back onto the original topic please.
The original topic wasnt about Spezza vs. Kovalchuk, it was about Spezza's play in the AHL and if he would be a number 1 center once he made it back to the NHL. Now would anyone be able to answer this?
 

Ismellofhockey

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Getting back to Spezza as a #1 centre, his weaknesses on draft day were skating and defensive awareness, his offensive potential was obviously never in doubt.

Sens took the slow road with Spezza giving him time in the AHL and 4th/3rd lines in Ottawa to work on his weaknesses and having seen Spezza play all games last year and a few this this year in the AHL, I think you'd have to be pretty biased to call him slow. His skating has improved tremendously to a point where I'd say he's no worse than Bonk and might be better. It might be just the AHL but in the games I saw he just blew by everyone on a few occasions.

Defensively, his +22 last year certainly was helped by playing for Ottawa but still attests to his efforts to improve that aspect of his game. I don't think he'll ever become a defensive specialist à la Yzerman or Fedorov but he's no longer a terrible liability à la Pavel Bure either.

So, no longer hampered by weak skating and non-existant defence, Spezza's ability to fight through the opposition's best defensive line is the only thing that could prevent him from being a #1 centre next year. He still dipsy-doodles a bit too much but maybe getting back to the NHL he'll simplify his game again, and as long as he depends on his vision rather than dipsy-doodles to create chances, he'll be solid.

Basically Kovalchuk has been the better player thus far, he was thrust into a leading role and ran with it.
Spezza came from further back, had to work on his skating and defence rather than let his offensive talent show but IMO there's nothing holding him back any longer and in the next 2 years we'll see him emerge as an elite centerman, whether he can reach Kovalchuk's level remains to be seen but don't be fooled by his first 2 years, the talent is there he was simply given different assignments than Kovalchuk.
 
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