Spezza

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HuskyFlames

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Air said:
Martin rarely, rarely put those two together because they upset his delicate defense-first chemistry. He mixed up the lines so often during a game, but he would only put Spezza in with Havlat if a clutch goal was needed, i.e. in overtime. I think he said something like, "They'll either win it or lose it for you," about the two.

So who did Spezza play with? A poster in this thread said he played third line and yet havlat was on the #3 line. So I am curious who he centered, cause he wasn't on the 4th line.
 

HuskyFlames

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Man.Utd said:
I'd much rather just move Havlat to the left side and keep the future #1 center than have Kovalchuk and lose anything close to a first line pivot.

I pray Ottawa's GM doesn't think the same way.
 

Wondercarrot

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Look at what was offered for Kova at the draft. Do you honestly think Spezza would have gotten a similar deal? Nope.

Patrick,

im afraid you are the one in denial. Not to mention you seem to have a very short memory. 3 years ago the Sens traded the Hart trophy runner up in yashin to the Islanders for Chara (who nobody expected to be anywhere near as good as he has turned out to be) and the rights to the Islanders #2 overall pick (expected to be either Kovalchuk or Spezza). So the Sens ostensibly traded one of the top players in the league the right to draft Spezza.
Frankly i don't care if you prefer Kovalchuk, he's an excellent player and if you think he's better than Spezza, fine its your constitutional right to say so. I disagree and rather than to simply tell you you are in denial and not backing up wild claims. I'll give you some stats to chew on.


GP G A PTS +/- PPG ES GWG Icetime/game

KOVALCHUK ATL L 81 41 46 87 -10 16 24 6 23:41

SPEZZA OTT C 78 22 33 55 +22 5 17 3 14:38

Lets do some simple math shall we?

Since Kovalchuk played 9 minutes per game more than Spezza, it would stand to reason than he would get more points than Spezza even if their talent level were equal and assuming Spezza got even half the amount of PP time that Kovalchuk got. (WHICH HE DIDN'T). please note Kovalchuks PP goals and even strength goals in comparison to Spezza's.


1121 minutes of ice time for Spezza gets him 55pts = 0.049 pts / min played
1896 minutes of ice time for Kovalchuk gets him 87 pts. = 0.045 / min played

hmm.... so if Spezza played the same amount as Kovalchuk it seems as though he ends up with about 93pts (0.049 x 1896) to Kovalchuks 87pts.

As you said they are OBVIOUSLY worlds apart.

So, how about using your own eyes, or looking to stats at the very least to come to a conclusion rather than just following message board hype and talking out the blowhole. As i stated earlier in this thread, the difference betweent he 2 isn't talent, it is style of play.

If you still think nobody but you knows what they are talking about, you can wait until the NHL reopens and watch Spezza all over the highlight reels as he has his first season playing on a top line getting far more icetime.
 
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Clutch Mediocrity

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Maybe it's just me, but I think Spezza has gone from being terribly overrated by those who've never watched him play to terribly underrated by those very same people simply because he hasn't put up insane point totals in his first few seasons.
 

HuskyFlames

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Why are you even using stats to prove something? They play on different teams and Ottawa is clearly head and shoudlers above Atlanta for top 9 forwards and top 6 defenseman.

Kovo is the best scoring forward of his age group right now and any team would love to have him on their top line.

Kova > Spezza

I gaurantee if you did a poll, Kova would win by a landslide.
 

Wondercarrot

By The Power of Canadian Tire Centre
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Did you actually even read my post?

as for taking a poll, you go right ahead. I'll stick to using my own brain.
 

Clutch Mediocrity

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Patrick - Flames Fan said:
Why are you even using stats to prove something?

Are you even a hockey fan? Although not always telling of the whole story, stats are huge.

Kovo is the best scoring forward of his age group right now and any team would love to have him on their top line.

And Spezza the best playmaking center. Kovalchuk wouldn't make every top line. In Vancouver for example Naslund would likely be #1 LW.

Kova > Spezza

I gaurantee if you did a poll, Kova would win by a landslide.

Agreed. But given the curcumstances surrounding the Sens I'd rather have Spezza, 10 fold. As for the landslide, the gap isn't as big as people such as yourself would like to think.
 

neelynugs

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Leachmeister2000 said:
I don't think Allison has that much of a physical dimension, he was ultra soft in the juniors, which is why he was picked later in the first round.

i thought he was picked later in the 1st round b/c of his "poor" skating :dunno: anyway, i never saw allison play in juniors, but harry sinden once said that jason had a ferocity seen in very few skill players. either way, watching allison for many years, i'd have to say that when healthy, he was as dominant a center as i've watched. physical beast down low. initiated contact BEFORE getting the puck, nailed the defender, then made a play. his skating was definitely below par, but it never held him back IMO. judging by your response, it sounds like we watched two different players :dunno:

so IF spezza brought a physical game to the table, that's who i'd compare him to- allison.
 

Clutch Mediocrity

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As my fellow Sens fan already said:

Patrick,

im afraid you are the one in denial. Not to mention you seem to have a very short memory. 3 years ago the Sens traded the Hart trophy runner up in yashin to the Islanders for Chara (who nobody expected to be anywhere near as good as he has turned out to be) and the rights to the Islanders #2 overall pick (expected to be either Kovalchuk or Spezza). So the Sens ostensibly traded one of the top players in the league the right to draft Spezza.
Frankly i don't care if you prefer Kovalchuk, he's an excellent player and if you think he's better than Spezza, fine its your constitutional right to say so. I disagree and rather than to simply tell you you are in denial and not backing up wild claims. I'll give you some stats to chew on.


GP G A PTS +/- PPG ES GWG Icetime/game

KOVALCHUK ATL L 81 41 46 87 -10 16 24 6 23:41

SPEZZA OTT C 78 22 33 55 +22 5 17 3 14:38

Lets do some simple math shall we?

Since Kovalchuk played 9 minutes per game more than Spezza, it would stand to reason than he would get more points than Spezza even if their talent level were equal and assuming Spezza got even half the amount of PP time that Kovalchuk got. (WHICH HE DIDN'T). please note Kovalchuks PP goals and even strength goals in comparison to Spezza's.


1121 minutes of ice time for Spezza gets him 55pts = 0.049 pts / min played
1896 minutes of ice time for Kovalchuk gets him 87 pts. = 0.045 / min played

hmm.... so if Spezza played the same amount as Kovalchuk it seems as though he ends up with about 93pts (0.049 x 1896) to Kovalchuks 87pts.

As you said they are OBVIOUSLY worlds apart.

So, how about using your own eyes, or looking to stats at the very least to come to a conclusion rather than just following message board hype and talking out the blowhole. As i stated earlier in this thread, the difference betweent he 2 isn't talent, it is style of play.

If you still think nobody but you knows what they are talking about, you can wait until the NHL reopens and watch Spezza all over the highlight reels as he has his first season playing on a top line getting far more icetime.

Give Spezza Kovalchuk's minutes and pair him with Heatley (a playmaker of Spezza's calibre would thrive with him) and their numbers wouldn't be too far apart. Is there a gap between the two? Definatly. It's not huge however.

As for the poll- are you slow? I've openly admitted on more than one occasion Kovalchuk is the better player.
 

HuskyFlames

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Man.Utd said:
As my fellow Sens fan already said:



Give Spezza Kovalchuk's minutes and pair him with Heatley (a playmaker of Spezza's calibre would thrive with him) and their numbers wouldn't be too far apart. Is there a gap between the two? Definatly. It's not huge however.

As for the poll- are you slow? I've openly admitted on more than one occasion Kovalchuk is the better player.

Hate to break it to you but Heatly was a minor factor last year for Kova's numbers. Geez, Heatly ONLY played 31 games last year comign back from a SERIOUS accident. So I am unsure how an injured Heatly for 31 games would give Kova a huge benefit. What about the other 50 games?

And why would Spezza thrive with another playmaker? You have been preaching Spezza is a playmaker. I am unsure how adding a playmaker to a playmaker makes it a benefit??? :dunno:
 

Wondercarrot

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Hip hip hooray! A poll ! well we know its fact for sure now. I would ask you to comment on any number of the issues i have brought up but it seems you are incapable of making any argument for youself other than this ">" symbol and a link to a poll voted on by 25 people. who for all i know have seen Spezza and Kovalchuk play a grand total of how many times?

Most people on the board talk out their collective rears and haven't seen the players they discuss and rely on intenet gossip to form their opinions.

So how many times have you seen Spezza play Patrick? How about Kovalchuk? Im sure as a calgary resident you see them both quite regularly and thus have an informed opinion of them both based on all those games you've seen, right?

You have failed to make a compelling argument as to why Kovachuk would be more valuable to the Sens than Spezza, you have commented that stats are useless after yourself parroting Kovalchuk's stats as if they were the end all be all and seem to have very little grasp on that which you are discussing in general.
(which seems painfully obvious from your post above ):


If anyone else wants to debate this im all ears, but there is no point in talking to you about it anymore Patrick as you are obviously too smart for the rest of us, and your 15 years on the planet have blessed you with uncommon insight.
 

HuskyFlames

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Ottawa's current PRO roster (according to Senators website):

centers - Mike Fisher, Antoine Vermette, Bryan Smolinski, Todd White.

+ Jason Spezza (if Kept)

left wings - Peter Schaefer, Vaclav Varada, Chris Kelly

+ Ilya Kovalchuk (if traded in theory)

Looking above, Ottawa's left side is MUCH weaker then their center position. Even without Spezza, they could still function with Fisher, Vermette, Smolinski and White. If they kept Bonk it would be that much stronger.

My question is who is on their left side? You can clearly see the LW side is Ottawa's true weakness.
 

HuskyFlames

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Wondercarrot said:
If anyone else wants to debate this im all ears, but there is no point in talking to you about it anymore Patrick as you are obviously too smart for the rest of us, and your 15 years on the planet have blessed you with uncommon insight.

I am not saying I am smarting than anyone, you are resorting to these sorts of comments. It is now basically you VERSUS a ton of other people (see the poll). Time to take off your homer glasses and look at Ottawa's true weakness.

And I have watched Spezza play quite a bit. My roomate is from Kenora and a huge ottawa fan and has a ton of games taped that we have watched in the last 1.5 years.
 

Wondercarrot

By The Power of Canadian Tire Centre
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Now try saying it upside down and sideways. maybe that will work.
What you fail to understand is that i don't care what the poll says i live in Ottawa, i watch Ottawa play every game and have a better idea of what they require than you do, or than the various internet posters from various cities around the planet.

I've already told you you are welcome to your opinion, but you don't seem to allow me that courtesy.
You can call me a homer all you like, i will enjoy seeing your posts after Spezza puts up more points than Kovalchuk.

You still haven't explained how after adjusting for minutes played Spezza ends up with more pts. sure he plays with better players but he got far less PP time.
Im not trying to tell you that Spezza is a better player, im trying to explain to you that they are not as far apart as you seem to think they are.

The same people telling you that they would rather have Kovalchuk will also likely tell you that Spezza will be one of the top players in the league as well.
 
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McThome

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All i'll say is that on Spezza's benching, Kovalchuk wouldn't have been playing for martin in the playoffs either....

he's one of the worst defensive players on one of the worst defensive teams in the NHL.
 

trentmccleary

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Patrick - Flames Fan said:
Ottawa's current PRO roster (according to Senators website):

centers - Mike Fisher, Antoine Vermette, Bryan Smolinski, Todd White.

+ Jason Spezza (if Kept)

left wings - Peter Schaefer, Vaclav Varada, Chris Kelly

+ Ilya Kovalchuk (if traded in theory)

Looking above, Ottawa's left side is MUCH weaker then their center position. Even without Spezza, they could still function with Fisher, Vermette, Smolinski and White. If they kept Bonk it would be that much stronger.

My question is who is on their left side? You can clearly see the LW side is Ottawa's true weakness.

FTR: Spezza is not better than Kovalchuk.
There are certain players that Ottawa fans believe that we need to win. With Hossa, Havlat and Alfredsson... a flashy, PPG scoring winger is not on the list. After watching Radek Bonk on our #1 PP unit for years with his 3rd line playmaking skills (maybe 2nd line based on current NHL talent). He only ever saw 1 option... pass to the closest guy to him who was vaguely open. Smoke and White aren't about to set our PP ablaze either. I think we're all hoping that a true playmaker like Spezza + a sniper like Hossa makes one unstopable line.

Last season- Spezza's numbers were held back because he was on 2nd unit PP duty all season. Havlat does play the 3rd line, but receives #1 unit time. As for Spezza's line last season, lineups were all over the place because of injuries to Fisher (24 GP) and White (53 GP). Spezza ES (42) + Bonk's PP (27) = 69 points... not to mention that Spezza is much better and will improve upon those numbers.

Kovalchuk- probably would not have scored 87 points in Ottawa last season. Certainly wouldn't have received 7 mins of PP time per game and we wouldn't have created a PP solely around him.

LW- we also pretty much in agreement here too. If we improve the LW (which has Smoke playing LW with Spezza at center)... we pick up some sort of PF. Every goalie in the playoffs is seeing & stopping our shots. We're outplaying teams and losing because of it.

Another center- here are the top 30 scoring centers from last season.
http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/stats
Subtracting the old, overrated and wingers (that NHL.com called centers). We get a working list of something like Richards, Thornton, Datsyuk, Lecavalier, Ribiero, Marleau, Jokinen, Arnason
Thornton is obviously better. I would hope that Spezza could eventually surpass Richards, Datsyuk, Lecavalier offensively. The other 4 don't have near the offensive potential.
 

trentmccleary

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Wondercarrot said:
You still haven't explained how after adjusting for minutes played Spezza ends up with more pts. sure he plays with better players but he got far less PP time.

Slight correction... better players?
Kozlov and Savard/Heatley (combining for a full season between them) are much better offensively than White and Smoke. Which look to be the PP combinations according to ice time.
 
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HuskyFlames

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I find it funny watching all the Ottawa fans defend Spezza vs Kovachuk BUT in the other Poll thread, fans from around the league clrealy label Kova as a better player and would you nto want the best player to play for your team? Apparently from thsi thread, only Senators fans opinion on Spezza is right and all other fans from around the league know nothing. Sounds like TO is rubbing off on you guys.

Kovo > Spezza
 

Clutch Mediocrity

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You're obviously very slow so I'll lay it out for you in terms you can understand:

Team A has lacked a #1 center for years. Team A also has many so, talented scoring wingers. They're given the choice between two players, each with outstanding upside; one is a #1 center, the other is a soft scoring winger. Who would Team A like more?
 

Tap on the Ankle

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Patrick - Flames Fan said:
I find it funny watching all the Ottawa fans defend Spezza vs Kovachuk BUT in the other Poll thread, fans from around the league clrealy label Kova as a better player and would you nto want the best player to play for your team? Apparently from thsi thread, only Senators fans opinion on Spezza is right and all other fans from around the league know nothing. Sounds like TO is rubbing off on you guys.

Kovo > Spezza

I'd still rather have Spezza. Even though Kovalchuk is more talented and proven (at this point) than Spezza, the Sens' need for a #1C is > need for a #1LW.
 

HuskyFlames

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Man.Utd said:
You're obviously very slow so I'll lay it out for you in terms you can understand:

Team A has lacked a #1 center for years. Team A also has many so, talented scoring wingers. They're given the choice between two players, each with outstanding upside; one is a #1 center, the other is a soft scoring winger. Who would Team A like more?

First of all Spezza has not proven to be a #1 center. You can ALSO add the fact that he is SOFT as well. You can also state that Kovo IS a proven #1 LW and also a position Ottawa has lacked for a while.
 

littleHossa

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Patrick - Flames Fan said:
First of all Spezza has not proven to be a #1 center. You can ALSO add the fact that he is SOFT as well. You can also state that Kovo IS a proven #1 LW and also a position Ottawa has lacked for a while.

We had scoring LWers, didn't need them. Spezza is already a second line center at minimum, 55 points last year. Next year he will get a lot more minutes and the all important PP time and he will produce without any problem at a pace above 65 points or more guaranteed Kovalchuk is a special player, personally if I had to choose between having that great playmaking center for Hossa/Havlat or Kovalchuk who sometimes is too selfish with the puck and is bad on defense, I'd take Spezza for my Sens.

As for your comments about Spezza being "soft" well it doesn't really mean much today. Kovalchuk isn't the big physical player but he grew on us with the years and showed he can play the body, Spezza has had 1 full NHL season, and did it hurt him that he didn't play physical? Not at all. In fact he did good in the playoffs when he had pressure on him and he's hitting a lot more in the AHL right now. Let's give him time, at least 1 season where he might even make the All-Star team, and see what kind of player he blooms into.
 
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