Speculation:Chatham To Join The OHL

[windsor7]

Current Memorial Arena capacity is just under 2,500. They would absolutely need some kind of renovation/addition to get into the OHL. Even OS, which is a small rink, has 3,500.

Yet Mississauga gets like 1000 a game for attendance.

 

[Tarantula]

Utter folly. There is no chance of expansion, look at the number of question marks regarding arenas, and or markets.

Relocation? Has a market study showed that the area will provide sustainable attendance? I remain skeptical about Chatham being a legitimate OHL market, but it would take a few years to clear all the red tape and get shovels in the ground as it is just a meeting at this point. I can't see expansion however, relocation would be the only way Chatham ices a team and the league could use a landing spot or two that I don't think they have at the present time.

 

[ohloutsider]

Utter folly. There is no chance of expansion, look at the number of question marks regarding arenas, and or markets.

Relocation? Has a market study showed that the area will provide sustainable attendance? I remain skeptical about Chatham being a legitimate OHL market, but it would take a few years to clear all the red tape and get shovels in the ground as it is just a meeting at this point. I can't see expansion however, relocation would be the only way Chatham ices a team and the league could use a landing spot or two that I don't think they have at the present time.

The population in the area is 40,000 plus so there are enough people to support a team. I would be more concerned about corporate backing in the area. You are correct don't see expansion but with 3 or 4 teams in the O teetering it might become a place for a relocating team. a 4000 seat arena fits the bill and usually once the ball starts rolling it happens all be it 5 to 10 years to make it happen is normal.

 

[AttackSound]

Utter folly. There is no chance of expansion, look at the number of question marks regarding arenas, and or markets.

Relocation? Has a market study showed that the area will provide sustainable attendance? I remain skeptical about Chatham being a legitimate OHL market, but it would take a few years to clear all the red tape and get shovels in the ground as it is just a meeting at this point. I can't see expansion however, relocation would be the only way Chatham ices a team and the league could use a landing spot or two that I don't think they have at the present time.

Would certainly be on the table for some debate on whether or not it happens any time soon. Of course there is a lot of questions that are still up in the air on whether or not when it will happen, if they do expand to Chatham.

At this point in time there are really only 3 feasible places that could be considered for expansion or relocation, Chatham is one place that seems to be of high interest and could host a relocation or expansion team.

There's a good chance that when or if that happens you'll see the league expand in the eastern conference as well not just one city but 2 one in the western conference with Chatham being the first options and its quiet possible to see a place like Brantford to be considered as well especially with there populus being just under 100,000 people assuming that they could renovate or build a new facility in the city.

However until we see one city get awarded franchisee status if it ever happens then will see growth in the OHL.

 

[TcNorth]

With Brantford’s 134,000 in their metro area, you would think eventually they will be back in the OHL one day. They seem more logical than Chatham, but you never know.

 

[three dog night]

With Brantford’s 134,000 in their metro area, you would think eventually they will be back in the OHL one day. They seem more logical than Chatham, but you never know.

Their arena needs work but I think it a bit bigger than Chatham-Kent.

 

[windsor7]

Utter folly. There is no chance of expansion, look at the number of question marks regarding arenas, and or markets.

Relocation? Has a market study showed that the area will provide sustainable attendance? I remain skeptical about Chatham being a legitimate OHL market, but it would take a few years to clear all the red tape and get shovels in the ground as it is just a meeting at this point. I can't see expansion however, relocation would be the only way Chatham ices a team and the league could use a landing spot or two that I don't think they have at the present time.

Agreed.
Im not sure it will ever happen

 

[BadgerBruce]

Expansion is likely a bad idea — agreed.

But I could see expansion occurring. The reason is simple: when an existing team is bought/ sold/ relocated, only the principals are part of the financial transaction.

For instance, when Gord Simmonds sold the Belleville Bulls to Michael Andlauer, over $10 million dollars changed hands between the two principals. The league quickly approved the Bulls’ relocation to Hamilton.

But if Andlauer had instead successfully applied for an OHL expansion team, the expansion fee would have been equally divided by the league’s existing owners.

Pretty hard to resist such a payday.

 

[AttackSound]

As of the moment I can't see any additional team movement as of yet.

There are certainly a few cities that could host an OHL club but as history has proven without proper facilities for any team in any city will be less likely at a relocation or expansion standpoint right now.

I would think that if the league is certainly interested in expansion they would expand to into two markets instead of just one. However I believe that this will be a few years before we see any additional team or relocation any time soon.

 

[Hammer9001]

Alright, with any new team/relocation speculation, three questions need to be answered.

1) Owner - Who is putting up the money for the team, and how deep are their pockets? If you don't have an owner, it's a non-starter.

2) Arena - Do you have an arena of at least 3,500 seats with a video board, and if not do you have a council or rich owner who is going to get you to such a facility? Owen Sound is the exception here, not the rule. I doubt the OHL wants to move to another markets that just squeaks in as far as amenities and size is concerned.

3) Support - How do you intend to draw 3,000+ a night? Once again, Owen Sound is the exception, not the rule. Most OHL markets are at least 50,000 in size, and usually larger. What history of the game does your city have? Do you have a lower league drawing similar numbers/packing your current arena?

So, I think 3 is pretty much ok in Chatham. 100,000 is a solid size. From my understanding though, 1 and 2 still need addressing.

 

[three dog night]

When was the last time the OHL added an expansion team.

 

[AttackSound]

Alright, with any new team/relocation speculation, three questions need to be answered.

1) Owner - Who is putting up the money for the team, and how deep are their pockets? If you don't have an owner, it's a non-starter.

2) Arena - Do you have an arena of at least 3,500 seats with a video board, and if not do you have a council or rich owner who is going to get you to such a facility? Owen Sound is the exception here, not the rule. I doubt the OHL wants to move to another markets that just squeaks in as far as amenities and size is concerned.

3) Support - How do you intend to draw 3,000+ a night? Once again, Owen Sound is the exception, not the rule. Most OHL markets are at least 50,000 in size, and usually larger. What history of the game does your city have? Do you have a lower league drawing similar numbers/packing your current arena?

So, I think 3 is pretty much ok in Chatham. 100,000 is a solid size. From my understanding though, 1 and 2 still need addressing.

Agreed that Owen Sound is certainly an exception to the rule in in a lot of areas that you've pointed out. However stripping away the arena capacity and city size from the equation. Owen Sound is unlike many other cities who host homes for OHL clubs.

Pointing out some of the simple factors that many other fans of the league seem to forget about on a regular basis.

1- Owen Sound and the Attack have a fair understanding that the team is a regional team not a city team like many others across the league. As the city populous is 20,000 residents the region of Grey-Bruce makes up

2- As for the building size being the smallest amount current OHL buildings the team has applied to league standards for STH and walk up fan base to what the league requires, in a building that holds 3,200-3,400 plus minus standing room. The league requires X amount of seating for STH and X amount for walk up ticket sales make up the remainder of the roughly 1,700 seats in the building of a regular basis.

Owen Sound has been a staple of what a small Junior Hockey market can accomplish with the right marketing strategy and best available event production in a older facility.

This type of situation has been made for a very iconic view point across the league as the low hanging I-beam ceiling has created an optical illusion for opposing teams and fans as it makes them feel cramped and gives a visual impression that the ice surface is smaller then standard 200 x 85.

As for the game experience OS has and for the foreseeable future has some the most passionate fans in the league and I recommend that any fan who believes that OS is an exception to the rulebook to look at the schedule when it comes out any season and take in a game at the Bayshore during late season or playoff time and see the electrifying atmosphere that can't be duplicated or reproduced in a larger centre in the same way.

To cap of this post Owen Sound and the Attack have no intention of uprooting anytime soon for the foreseeable future as the team will be headed into officially 30th season in the league and the 20th under the Attack name with no indication or intent of doing anything less then competing and being a viable small market club for seasons and years to come.

 

[ohloutsider]

Alright, with any new team/relocation speculation, three questions need to be answered.

1) Owner - Who is putting up the money for the team, and how deep are their pockets? If you don't have an owner, it's a non-starter.

2) Arena - Do you have an arena of at least 3,500 seats with a video board, and if not do you have a council or rich owner who is going to get you to such a facility? Owen Sound is the exception here, not the rule. I doubt the OHL wants to move to another markets that just squeaks in as far as amenities and size is concerned.

3) Support - How do you intend to draw 3,000+ a night? Once again, Owen Sound is the exception, not the rule. Most OHL markets are at least 50,000 in size, and usually larger. What history of the game does your city have? Do you have a lower league drawing similar numbers/packing your current arena?

So, I think 3 is pretty much ok in Chatham. 100,000 is a solid size. From my understanding though, 1 and 2 still need addressing.

#2 is being addressed with the vote by Chatham politicians to build a 4000+ seat arena. Might take a few years to break ground but it is in the early stages. Just need to find #1 and that won't happen until the arena is built and a team wants to move or yes expansion is considered.

 

[From Up Top]

When was the last time the OHL added an expansion team.

1998 was the last time the league expanded from 18 to 20 teams. (Mississauga Ice Dogs and Brampton Battalion)

 

[AttackSound]

1998 was the last time the league expanded from 18 to 20 teams. (Mississauga Ice Dogs and Brampton Battalion)

When that happened in the late 90's the league however uncertain but wanting a bigger presence in the GTA would didn't project how 2 markets within a 10 minute proximity from each other.

With the exception to the Guelph and Kitchener situation where there was a long history of being rivals in the league. It proved that having two clubs in the GTA had less then sufficient support to keep both Brampton and Mississauga in the league. Since then we all knew what happened in the relocation of the Battalion to North Bay.

As it stands right now any expansion in the league will see more then likely 2 cities being awarded a franchise then just one. If Chatham is one on the horizon to join the league in the next few years there will more than likely be another city that the league has in mind as well to expand into as well. Just for the simple fact to balance the schedule properly which means, Cornwall, Buffalo or Syracuse would be the other city to where the league is looking into for expansion.

 

[From Up Top]

When that happened in the late 90's the league however uncertain but wanting a bigger presence in the GTA would didn't project how 2 markets within a 10 minute proximity from each other.

With the exception to the Guelph and Kitchener situation where there was a long history of being rivals in the league. It proved that having two clubs in the GTA had less then sufficient support to keep both Brampton and Mississauga in the league. Since then we all knew what happened in the relocation of the Battalion to North Bay.

As it stands right now any expansion in the league will see more then likely 2 cities being awarded a franchise then just one. If Chatham is one on the horizon to join the league in the next few years there will more than likely be another city that the league has in mind as well to expand into as well. Just for the simple fact to balance the schedule properly which means, Cornwall, Buffalo or Syracuse would be the other city to where the league is looking into for expansion.

You can also add Brantford to the list of potential cities, although near the bottom without a new rink on the way.

 

[AttackSound]

You can also add Brantford to the list of potential cities, although near the bottom without a new rink on the way.

Forgot about Brantford but yes I would think that they would be in consideration for a team as well.

The issue isn't that there isn't enough places on the map to put a team. The issue is more that does any of these cities have a facility that is or could be brought up to OHL standards in the next few years?

The major factor in expanding the league has more to do with existing markets then the actual expansion in the league. Every team has a specific area of the map that the league considers a part of a specific team's fanbase. And as I pointed out before with the exception to Guelph and Kitchener being geographically on each other's doorstep most teams have a 1-2 hour travel radius between team A and team B in the same division or conference.

However I do believe that expansion will happen in the league but it won't be in the near future more likely a decade 5 years to a decade from now. If there is any type of expansion in the league horizon the next 3 months will be the time for the league to approve the expansion while a city either renovates or builds a new facility in the fall of 2019-20.

In turn meaning that 2020-2021 would be the year of potentially a 21st or 22nd team to be announced by the league as coming into the league. Keeping in mind the last 2 out of the last 3 cities to be awarded a franchise were previously in the league at one point and have made decent returns to the league in Hamilton and North Bay, not to discount Flint in any regards.

I'd say the cities that are on the league's wishlist

Chatham
Cornwall
Syracuse
Buffalo


These places would be in the league's wishful thinking list of expansion locations for the foreseeable future. Keep in mind that I strongly believe the reason why the league hasn't expanded is simply because they are looking into two locations not just one to expand into.

 

[ohloutsider]

Forgot about Brantford but yes I would think that they would be in consideration for a team as well.

The issue isn't that there isn't enough places on the map to put a team. The issue is more that does any of these cities have a facility that is or could be brought up to OHL standards in the next few years?

The major factor in expanding the league has more to do with existing markets then the actual expansion in the league. Every team has a specific area of the map that the league considers a part of a specific team's fanbase. And as I pointed out before with the exception to Guelph and Kitchener being geographically on each other's doorstep most teams have a 1-2 hour travel radius between team A and team B in the same division or conference.

However I do believe that expansion will happen in the league but it won't be in the near future more likely a decade 5 years to a decade from now. If there is any type of expansion in the league horizon the next 3 months will be the time for the league to approve the expansion while a city either renovates or builds a new facility in the fall of 2019-20.

In turn meaning that 2020-2021 would be the year of potentially a 21st or 22nd team to be announced by the league as coming into the league. Keeping in mind the last 2 out of the last 3 cities to be awarded a franchise were previously in the league at one point and have made decent returns to the league in Hamilton and North Bay, not to discount Flint in any regards.

I'd say the cities that are on the league's wishlist

Chatham
Cornwall
Syracuse
Buffalo


These places would be in the league's wishful thinking list of expansion locations for the foreseeable future. Keep in mind that I strongly believe the reason why the league hasn't expanded is simply because they are looking into two locations not just one to expand into.

Not sure the league would have a "wishlist" of cities. Branch has said publicly that he would like to see a team located in New York State, he did not indicate a city of preference. Other than that any city would be fine if it met the requirements to host a team and there was a team interested in moving there or if expansion was ever going to happen in the future ( personally don't see that happening anytime soon). The new city would have to be approved by the BOG as well and as discussed many times it would have to a reasonable travel distance.

 

[Captain Crash]

I'd say the cities that are on the league's wishlist

Chatham
Cornwall
Syracuse
Buffalo


These places would be in the league's wishful thinking list of expansion locations for the foreseeable future. Keep in mind that I strongly believe the reason why the league hasn't expanded is simply because they are looking into two locations not just one to expand into.

Syracuse is home to an AHL team, and the Crunch signed a 12 year lease extension just last year.

 

[AttackSound]

Syracuse is home to an AHL team, and the Crunch signed a 12 year lease extension just last year.

Like I said wishful thinking which dosen't guarentee that they will

 

[three dog night]

Is Albany NY to far away

 

[AttackSound]

Is Albany NY to far away

Albany is halfway to the east coast and would be mathematically unfeasible from a travel standpoint for the majority of the league to travel.

Not to also count even the closest OHL cities to Albany are the better part of 6-6 1/2 hours away even if you could put them in the Central division which we all can agree where they would have to go the distance between Albany and the rest of the league would be a financial nightmare for travel costs.

If they expand at all it will have to be in the province of Ontario and not the U.S. even though the the U.S. would be the best option for locations it wouldn't be the best for the league as a whole.

 

[AttackSound]

Is Albany NY to far away

Looked at the travel distance between Albany and the league cities already in existence and averaged the travel distance out among everyone's travel based on hours between NY and the rest of the league.

In conclusion I determined that Albany, NY will not be joining the OHL if they did the average trip will be 7 hours one way that would mean that they would be doing 14 hour round trips wherever they go.

So no to Albany, NY

 

[AttackSound]

Looking at all the potential cities that could be in the league theres really only a few that could feasibly work and survive.

From a travel standpoint here's the top 3 that could be awarded franchises based only on travel.

Traverse City, MI - would be on the list based on how far away from already existing markets but close enough that they could play in the west division with Flint, Saginaw, Sarnia, Soo, Windsor although like many places would need a suitable facility to play out of, not to also count that the populous of Traverse City is region is at 140,000.

Brantford, Ontario - would be on the list simply due to the fact that they're so far away from Guelph and Kitchener and Hamilton that they could sustain a franchise if they had the facilities to host an OHL club.

Ann Arbor, MI - could be on the list as many OHLers come from the area and has the populous to support major junior hockey with close to 114,000 residents the big question would be if they had or could build a facility that could host a OHL market.

Question marks

Chatham, Ontario - although it would seem that the City of Chatham would seem to be on the OHL's interest list it is hard to say if they would be one of a few places considered on the wishlist for potential cities the league is looking into expanding into. As its been pointed out before the city doesn't really have the facilities to host a team yet, although not out of the question of places if they ever could get a facility built to sustain a franchise.

Cornwall, Ontario - Yeah I know beat a dead horse so to speak, although with there history of being an OHL and QMJHL team over the years it is still possible that they could one day make a return to the OHL assuming once again they could have a facility that could host an OHL club and sustain a fanbase.

Of course this is really just based on travel distance between the current OHL cities and where they could expand to, and by no means will they actually do so.

However these are only best guesses on what the league is thinking about expanding to and really will have very little effect into the league's decision on if or when they choose to expand the team's into.

 

[FireBird71]

Looking at all the potential cities that could be in the league theres really only a few that could feasibly work and survive.

From a travel standpoint here's the top 3 that could be awarded franchises based only on travel.

Traverse City, MI - would be on the list based on how far away from already existing markets but close enough that they could play in the west division with Flint, Saginaw, Sarnia, Soo, Windsor although like many places would need a suitable facility to play out of, not to also count that the populous of Traverse City is region is at 140,000.

Brantford, Ontario - would be on the list simply due to the fact that they're so far away from Guelph and Kitchener and Hamilton that they could sustain a franchise if they had the facilities to host an OHL club.

Ann Arbor, MI - could be on the list as many OHLers come from the area and has the populous to support major junior hockey with close to 114,000 residents the big question would be if they had or could build a facility that could host a OHL market.

Question marks

Chatham, Ontario - although it would seem that the City of Chatham would seem to be on the OHL's interest list it is hard to say if they would be one of a few places considered on the wishlist for potential cities the league is looking into expanding into. As its been pointed out before the city doesn't really have the facilities to host a team yet, although not out of the question of places if they ever could get a facility built to sustain a franchise.

Cornwall, Ontario - Yeah I know beat a dead horse so to speak, although with there history of being an OHL and QMJHL team over the years it is still possible that they could one day make a return to the OHL assuming once again they could have a facility that could host an OHL club and sustain a fanbase.

Of course this is really just based on travel distance between the current OHL cities and where they could expand to, and by no means will they actually do so.

However these are only best guesses on what the league is thinking about expanding to and really will have very little effect into the league's decision on if or when they choose to expand the team's into.

If the league expanded into Michigan I think Muskegon and Kalamazoo would be better options...already have the arenas...just need to upgrade to League standards like Flint did