Sorry , we are the softest team in the NHL

[hector morrison]

The physical stuff causes problems the league ultimately doesn't want to deal with. Legal stuff...like concussion issues/liability,etc. They don't want to be seen as being able to do something about it ,yet use the excuse that 'this is what the fans pay to see'... but the optics are bad when trying to justify head injuries and the like, even if the players willingly signed on to accept fighting ,some lawyer can make misery for the league in being negligent should that player get seriously hurt.

Right now,in this era of hockey ,we are witnessing a different type of game.Newer fans won't necessarily notice ...Older fans will possibly turn away altogether(i have considered it). I think teams are trying to find that skill/toughness balance...not an easy task!

I think you might be on to something here. The game has gotten much faster since the elimination of the red line, and if there are Scott Stevens style hits with this speed, guys are going to get hurt. Basic physics right there.

Sometimes the speed is entertaining, but when you play a defence first, tough team, it seems to shut right now.

Then the playoffs come, the whistles are put away, and the players know this. Just look at Jake Debrusk in Game two last year, he just went full bore rat, hacking and smashing at everyone, and nothing came of it till Kadri took him out. It shouldn't have got that far.[/QUOTE]


Yeah, relying on the refs is not a good idea! Ultimately,this what the Leaf brain trust is stuck with. They are complying with what the league says it wants,not policing themselves ,not taking matters into their own hands...and how are they making out with that strategy of compliance ? Looks to me they've been getting shafted in the last 4 years. If this keeps up,if the Leaf brass don't say something or change their ways,then all of this marvelous young talent will be wasted

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Read the entire thread on Twitter, I promise it won't disappoint

 

[Menzinger]

Read the entire thread on Twitter, I promise it won't disappoint

So good lol

 

[Pookie]

You just need to realize the difference between an effective coaching staff for development versus an ineffective coaching staff for development.

Take a look at the prospect reports on Pastrnak and you'll find out that he shared a ton of similar issues to Nylander. The difference is how the coaching staff treated him. They worked with him on the aspects of his game that needed developing and the more he showed - the more they gave him. They ended up giving him an opportunity on a mega-line with Bergeron and Marchand and told him if he commits himself to a super hard working playstyle, he can remain in that role.

We have a coaching staff who does precisely the opposite of this. Our young players perform great and they aren't rewarded whatsoever with any bonus opportunity.

So... blaming the MODO and Marlies coaching staff now?

Surely you know he spent 3 years in the Minors after being drafted.

Pastranak spent 1 season in the Minors.

Think before you post.

 

[Pookie]

I never said PK, I said Special Teams, PP was awful too.

Your asking if the Leafs got past Boston, do I think they could have went to the Finals ? Absolutely. Toronto was Boston's hardest opponent to get to the Finals.

If the Leafs compete, like they did in that Boston series and Special Teams aren't a disaster, Yes they could absolutely go to the Finals.

Notice as I have said multiple times, compete level is something the Leafs need to be successful in the playoffs.

You like to take 1 point I made (Special Teams) and put words in my mouth saying that's the only thing that matters.



I never said it was 1 thing. You put those words in my mouth.

When I do the same thing back, it's a problem ?

Be careful with statements like our PK cost us.

It’s true. Boston outscored us 7-3 on the PP.

Looks horrible.

But 3 of those Boston goals came in 1 game (Game 4 - 6-4 Boston win).

It’s more correct to say that the PK cost us game 4 but it was essentially even in the rest of the series.

 

[HolyCrap]

Yup, and we all know who the actual Kadri haters were.

It's absolutely hilarious seeing all the people who trashed Kadri non-stop are now longing for his grit and toughness.

kardi really used his grit and toughness last two playoffs. You could hear him slamming his head against the glass in the press box. He was addition by subtraction. We need mentally stable players with grit and heart. He had lots to give that we miss just nothing upstairs to support it.

 

[IPS]

So... blaming the MODO and Marlies coaching staff now?

Surely you know he spent 3 years in the Minors after being drafted.

Pastranak spent 1 season in the Minors.

Think before you post.

The Marlies did a terrific job with Nylander.

He came into the league with back-to-back 61 point seasons (much more engaged play too) and has only regressed since then.

It appears you are the one who doesn't think before they post

 

[Pookie]

The Marlies did a terrific job with Nylander.

He came into the league with back-to-back 61 point seasons (much more engaged play too) and has only regressed since then.

It appears you are the one who doesn't think before they post

If by “then” you mean 1 season.. then that’s fine. It was only 1 season of point regression.

I guess your Pasta and Nylander comparison is confined to that one season then since you think he had great back to back seasons prior to that.

Babcock did a great job with him in years 1 and 2 apparently.

Weird point but yeah... ok. Thanks for coming out.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Be careful with statements like our PK cost us.

It’s true. Boston outscored us 7-3 on the PP.

Looks horrible.

But 3 of those Boston goals came in 1 game (Game 4 - 6-4 Boston win).

It’s more correct to say that the PK cost us game 4 but it was essentially even in the rest of the series.

The point is, it wasn't "toughness" that cost the Leafs that series.

Not sure how anyone can prove that.

 

[18leafsfan18]

On there's plenty of reason to be negative, playing like crap since the beginning of Jan, team looking listless so far this season, toughness if it was an issue before is more of an issue now with Kadri gone etc.

Sure we're probably better than we've shown so far but how much better isn't clear to me at all. If someone told me that we'd play much better going forward, finish around 7-8th overall and get bounced in the 1st round again, that wouldn't surprise me one bit and no, I wouldn't be satisfied with that at all.

Maybe they can compete when they want to, dunno, But if they can, then why don't they? I'm not sure a winning attitude is something that's easily turned on/off like a light-bulb. I'm not sure players with a winning attitude are even capable of playing in a disinterested fashion for an extended length of time TBH.

How can you argue that these players can't compete, when they clearly did the last 2 years in the playoffs ?

Winning attitude is absolutely something that can be turned on/off. That's why you see teams play awful at times and amazing at other times (St.Louis last season, Tampa this season so far).

The whole "Leafs need to trade for toughness" argument is just flawed. Leafs need these players to compete, simple as that.

Coach change sometimes works (team doesn't play for the coach anymore), player personal sometimes does (not as effective IMO).

If this is a team wide issue, IMO it's more on coaching staff than anyone else. Players obviously have to be held somewhat responsible, but there are plenty of examples of players "Checking out" as a team.

 

[Pookie]

The point is, it wasn't "toughness" that cost the Leafs that series.

Not sure how anyone can prove that.

Toughness is winning puck battles. It’s clearing lanes and going to the net. It’s being first in the corner. All of that.

Maybe this is the issue. You can’t measure that. Dubas can’t measure that.

So like you, he discounts it. Claims it’s not a factor.

But logically, if you have 2 teams that are relatively evenly matched and relatively healthy... having grit would be a factor that separates them.

 

[Pookie]

How can you argue that these players can't compete, when they clearly did the last 2 years in the playoffs ?

Winning attitude is absolutely something that can be turned on/off. That's why you see teams play awful at times and amazing at other times (St.Louis last season, Tampa this season so far).

The whole "Leafs need to trade for toughness" argument is just flawed. Leafs need these players to compete, simple as that.

Coach change sometimes works (team doesn't play for the coach anymore), player personal sometimes does (not as effective IMO).

If this is a team wide issue, IMO it's more on coaching staff than anyone else. Players obviously have to be held somewhat responsible, but there are plenty of examples of players "Checking out" as a team.

If the players... including the 15 that are playing for contracts in 1-2 years.... (FYI, 6 D don’t have contracts next year).... have checked out and won’t even play for their future... then we need new players.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Toughness is winning puck battles. It’s clearing lanes and going to the net. It’s being first in the corner. All of that.

Maybe this is the issue. You can’t measure that. Dubas can’t measure that.

So like you, he discounts it. Claims it’s not a factor.

But logically, if you have 2 teams that are relatively evenly matched and relatively healthy... having grit would be a factor that separates them.

The Leafs absolutely showed that in that series. That's the whole point of the argument. If they didn't they wouldn't have won a single game.

They didn't lose because of toughness.

 

[18leafsfan18]

If the players... including the 15 that are playing for contracts in 1-2 years.... (FYI, 6 D don’t have contracts next year).... have checked out and won’t even play for their future... then we need new players.

St Louis won Stanley Cup last year after a coaching change.

Pitt in 2016.

Coaching changes sometimes do the trick, sometimes it player personnel. But the players have proven they can play that way (last 2 years in playoffs). IMO they need motivation.

 

[Pookie]

The Leafs absolutely showed that in that series. That's the whole point of the argument. If they didn't they wouldn't have won a single game.

They didn't lose because of toughness.

Definitive statement for something you feel you can’t prove (or disprove)

I disagree that they showed it but regardless simply “showing it” isn’t a checkbox. Ok. Won a puck battle. Check.

It’s possible to be outworked by a team that is grittier. And that’s what happened.

 

[Pookie]

St Louis won Stanley Cup last year after a coaching change.

Pitt in 2016.

Coaching changes sometimes do the trick, sometimes it player personnel. But the players have proven they can play that way (last 2 years in playoffs). IMO they need motivation.

Data suggests a mid season coaching change isn’t likely to work

Is Changing the Coach Really the Answer? - Freakonomics

 

[18leafsfan18]

Data suggests a mid season coaching change isn’t likely to work

Is Changing the Coach Really the Answer? - Freakonomics

I'm not saying it is the answer or not. Simply stated sometimes that is the answer.

When an entire team doesn't play with that compete level there is a larger issue. They can play that way, it's been proven.

What is more likely ?

All these players somehow no longer can play with compete level

or

There is a larger underlying issue that is causing the whole team to play without compete level

 

[18leafsfan18]

Definitive statement for something you feel you can’t prove (or disprove)

I disagree that they showed it but regardless simply “showing it” isn’t a checkbox. Ok. Won a puck battle. Check.

It’s possible to be outworked by a team that is grittier. And that’s what happened.

So the outwork worked in 4 games but didn't work in the other 3 ?

If they were completely out worked or out competed in the series it would have been a sweep.

 

[Bomber0104]

I'm not saying it is the answer or not. Simply stated sometimes that is the answer.

When an entire team doesn't play with that compete level there is a larger issue. They can play that way, it's been proven.

What is more likely ?

All these players somehow no longer can play with compete level

or

There is a larger underlying issue that is causing the whole team to play without compete level

Sorry, but are you actually implying this roster has ever played a hard/intense style of play?

 

[Pookie]

I'm not saying it is the answer or not. Simply stated sometimes that is the answer.

When an entire team doesn't play with that compete level there is a larger issue. They can play that way, it's been proven.

What is more likely ?

All these players somehow no longer can play with compete level

or

There is a larger underlying issue that is causing the whole team to play without compete level

Just to focus on this point... when has it been proven that THIS version of the team can play with compete?

Significant roster turnover from last year to this. Kadri, Rosen, Gardiner, Zaitsev, Brown, Borgman, Marleau , Hainsey, Ennis

9 of 20 roster spots

 

[Pookie]

So the outwork worked in 4 games but didn't work in the other 3 ?

If they were completely out worked or out competed in the series it would have been a sweep.

It’s not an extreme scale. Outworked enough to lose.

 

[18leafsfan18]

It’s not an extreme scale. Outworked enough to lose.

So they were almost on pace with the team considered to be the hardest working / most compete level team in the entire NHL.

I think this proves my point exactly.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Sorry, but are you actually implying this roster has ever played a hard/intense style of play?

Playoff the last 2 season is what I was referring to in that post.

Just to focus on this point... when has it been proven that THIS version of the team can play with compete?

Significant roster turnover from last year to this. Kadri, Rosen, Gardiner, Zaitsev, Brown, Borgman, Marleau , Hainsey, Ennis

9 of 20 roster spots

You have a point there and I can agree with it. There is a ton of turnover, but I'm talking more specifically about the core of players, that hasn't changed (I guess I could have specified that).

 

[Pookie]

So they were almost on pace with the team considered to be the hardest working / most compete level team in the entire NHL.

I think this proves my point exactly.

You relish losing?

The Leafs talent could not overcome a very hardworking team.

We’ve done absolutely nothing to address this deficiency this year.

 

[18leafsfan18]

You relish losing?

The Leafs talent could not overcome a very hardworking team.

We’ve done absolutely nothing to address this deficiency this year.

Don't relish losing whatsoever.

Your argument is that this roster can't play gritty and compete, then you say they were only beaten in those facets by a small margin (to the team who is the best at it).

You contradict your own argument.

"Toughness" was not the issue last year.