sorry wall of text... the real study of chiarelli's last 5 years in boston

DKH

The Bergeron of HF
Feb 27, 2002
73,961
51,460
I watched Soderberg last year
People seem to forget that every contract Chiarelli gave out came with a NMC or NTC
It’s a problem but look at Yzerman in Tampa who bottom line is a very good GM

He even gave Alex Killorn one. I’m a fan of Killorn he’s a legit 3rd liner who can play up and down the lineup but Killorn, JT Miller, Palat, and Johnson all the 4-9 forwards were resigned to them

Obviously to sign Callahan he got one

Kucherov & Stamkos have them

Point will definitely get one when he signs next year and if they can figure out a way to sign the super underrated Gourde a UFA next summer he will get one

Little flexibility but it’s apparently the standard industry wise
 
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LSCII

Cup driven
Mar 1, 2002
50,473
21,962
Central MA
I thought they were pretty entertaining until the 2014-15 season.

Even in 2013-14 the B's won 54 games, were 3rd in goals scored and still played a heavy game.

In the playoffs they were 57-40 under Julien.

I thought they lacked the needed killer instinct the entire time Claude was here. They'd come out flying, score 2 quick goals and then he'd pull back on the reins and play prevent instead of pouring it on and winning easily. His overall record is fine (which is not a shock given his system is built to mitigate mistakes and keep them in every game), but just like DK, the stats don't really tell the whole story about his time here. You have to watch and see how effective it was or wasn't and draw your own conclusions. In the end, they may have won a president's cup, but lost to a team they should never have in the playoffs and they followed it up by crapping the bed down the stretch in two successive years to become playoff non-qualifiers (which with that roster was pathetic). One bad season like that would have gotten most coaches fired, let alone two in a row.
 
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Alberta_OReilly_Fan

Bruin fan since 1975
Nov 26, 2006
14,331
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Edmonton Canada
I watched Soderberg last year

It’s a problem but look at Yzerman in Tampa who bottom line is a very good GM

He even gave Alex Killorn one. I’m a fan of Killorn he’s a legit 3rd liner who can play up and down the lineup but Killorn, JT Miller, Palat, and Johnson all the 4-9 forwards were resigned to them

Obviously to sign Callahan he got one

Kucherov & Stamkos have them

Point will definitely get one when he signs next year and if they can figure out a way to sign the super underrated Gourde a UFA next summer he will get one

Little flexibility but it’s apparently the standard industry wise


damn players wanting to know they wont have to uproot their kids from school/friends... can build a dream home and not get ripped away from it in a moments notice... might even talk their extended family into moving closer and then build a life with them around and not have to uproot them too if the team suddenly needs a left shot something and decides you are expendable

these players shouldn't be allowed to get no trade protection even if they have paid their dues and became valuable enough that maybe they are worth it?

and damn the gm that gives it to these players rather than watch the next team do it... because as you say, every good team that has good players that qualify for this clause, ends up giving them out.

if fans don't like it... blame the cba. blame the players. because any gm that tries to resist the tide isn't going to be able to ice a competitive team
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,206
17,561
Connecticut
I thought they lacked the needed killer instinct the entire time Claude was here. They'd come out flying, score 2 quick goals and then he'd pull back on the reins and play prevent instead of pouring it on and winning easily. His overall record is fine (which is not a shock given his system is built to mitigate mistakes and keep them in every game), but just like DK, the stats don't really tell the whole story about his time here. You have to watch and see how effective it was or wasn't and draw your own conclusions. In the end, they may have won a president's cup, but lost to a team they should never have in the playoffs and they followed it up by crapping the bed down the stretch in two successive years to become playoff non-qualifiers (which with that roster was pathetic). One bad season like that would have gotten most coaches fired, let alone two in a row.

Like I said, up to 2013-14 I thought they were fine. Losing to Montreal in playoffs that year was bad, but I don't know why that would be on the coach. Top teams get upset in the playoffs every year. After that things didn't go too well. The next season they went from 3rd in scoring to 23rd, Bergeron leading the team in scoring with just 55 points. Injuries, complacency, stagnant system. Many factors.
 
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LSCII

Cup driven
Mar 1, 2002
50,473
21,962
Central MA
Like I said, up to 2013-14 I thought they were fine. Losing to Montreal in playoffs that year was bad, but I don't know why that would be on the coach. Top teams get upset in the playoffs every year. After that things didn't go too well. The next season they went from 3rd in scoring to 23rd, Bergeron leading the team in scoring with just 55 points. Injuries, complacency, stagnant system. Many factors.

I just can't disagree with you more. The collapse down the stretch in two successive years was mirrored by the collapse against the Flyers years before, after being up 3 games to none and 3 to nothing in the deciding game 7. They simply lacked the killer instinct to finish. Claude pulled back, played conservative, overly defensive hockey, and it cost them. Countless times over his ten years here too. It was maddening. They'd go up 2-0 or 3-0 in a game, and let the other team creep back in every time because of how he coached.

And I say this despite a cup win. He flat out sucked and they won that cup despite him. And they nearly pulled out another win despite him, but he Clauded it up and cost them badly in that series. Just grossly out classed and out coached by Quenneville with no adjustments by Claude after Chicago adjusted to what Boston was doing. Claude was baffled and had no answer but to roll 4 like usual.
 
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WhalerTurnedBruin55

Fading out, thanks for the times.
Oct 31, 2008
11,346
6,708
having none of the pieces left on the team <> "getting nothing for him"

and it wasnt Chia that gave him away for Jimmy Hayes
Ok?

What's your point?

I am unhappy that we got Jimmy Hayes for him, whomever the GM was. Not sure why you feel the need to enforce what we already know.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,206
17,561
Connecticut
I just can't disagree with you more. The collapse down the stretch in two successive years was mirrored by the collapse against the Flyers years before, after being up 3 games to none and 3 to nothing in the deciding game 7. They simply lacked the killer instinct to finish. Claude pulled back, played conservative, overly defensive hockey, and it cost them. Countless times over his ten years here too. It was maddening. They'd go up 2-0 or 3-0 in a game, and let the other team creep back in every time because of how he coached.

And I say this despite a cup win. He flat out sucked and they won that cup despite him. And they nearly pulled out another win despite him, but he Clauded it up and cost them badly in that series. Just grossly out classed and out coached by Quenneville with no adjustments by Claude after Chicago adjusted to what Boston was doing. Claude was baffled and had no answer but to roll 4 like usual.

You make it seem like the Bruins had dynasty talent, so good they could win a Cup and go to another final with a coach that flat out sucked.

Seem to recall the Bruins leading by a goal with less than two minutes left in Game 6 of the finals against the Black Hawks. Ready for a Game 7. "Roll 4" didn't give up 2 goals in the last 2 minutes. The Bruins best players did. Probably because they were not as good as Chicago's best players.

So, I disagree completely. Claude made them into the legit contenders they were.
 

BigGoalBrad

Registered User
Jun 3, 2012
9,908
2,684
damn players wanting to know they wont have to uproot their kids from school/friends... can build a dream home and not get ripped away from it in a moments notice... might even talk their extended family into moving closer and then build a life with them around and not have to uproot them too if the team suddenly needs a left shot something and decides you are expendable

these players shouldn't be allowed to get no trade protection even if they have paid their dues and became valuable enough that maybe they are worth it?

and damn the gm that gives it to these players rather than watch the next team do it... because as you say, every good team that has good players that qualify for this clause, ends up giving them out.

if fans don't like it... blame the cba. blame the players. because any gm that tries to resist the tide isn't going to be able to ice a competitive team


My boss moved. Which means my office moved. Thats life. (Had a 5 minute commute which obv had something to do with taking the job.)

If they don't like being traded they can get a different job or be self employed etc. Players don't whine about moving when it happens when they are UFAs.

We are in the entitlement age though forget about guys playing well enough that the team doesn't want to trade them.

Guys benefit from changing teams and having new opportunities. I don't think any of the pro hockey players who were forced to relocate to Las Vegas for work are bitter about it.

Trading an unwanted player to a team who actually wants them should be easier. A young team looking to reach the cap floor would love Backes hes still a decent player. I don't want to trade DK but look at it from other teams perspectives anyone without a top center would love to take Krejci off our hands and would give us a pretty good package to do so.
 

Alberta_OReilly_Fan

Bruin fan since 1975
Nov 26, 2006
14,331
3,941
Edmonton Canada
My boss moved. Which means my office moved. Thats life. (Had a 5 minute commute which obv had something to do with taking the job.)

If they don't like being traded they can get a different job or be self employed etc. Players don't whine about moving when it happens when they are UFAs.

We are in the entitlement age though forget about guys playing well enough that the team doesn't want to trade them.

Guys benefit from changing teams and having new opportunities. I don't think any of the pro hockey players who were forced to relocate to Las Vegas for work are bitter about it.

Trading an unwanted player to a team who actually wants them should be easier. A young team looking to reach the cap floor would love Backes hes still a decent player. I don't want to trade DK but look at it from other teams perspectives anyone without a top center would love to take Krejci off our hands and would give us a pretty good package to do so.


if you had a job like... say lawyer or... dentist... or whatever... some very important job that paid a lot and made you very valuable... and say... your boss moved

and say you wanted to establish your own office... and stay where you were with your clients? would you have to move then?

so... your job... whatever it is... if you want to keep it you must move. not all jobs are like that

say im working at the burger flipping job... and they close shop. am I out of luck or can I go across the street to the burger preperations job shop? in hockey there is only 1 employer... 1 employer means monopoly. it gets government right to work legislation involved. it gets combinds legistlation involved.

theres very strong rules around monopolys. and in some areas... very strong laws reguarding the right to work. so in order to stay legal... pro sports leagues like nhl must allow their employees to unionize. theres a lot of laws about how unions work too... how they are allowed to negotiate a cba that can address issues and concerns of its member body.

some unions are able to request things other unions cant. it all depends how valuable the union is to the employer and how much the employer needs this specialized work force

can the nhl just get rid of the current 720 hockey players and replace them with a new group of 720? or would they lose billions of dollars trying to do that?

so... the players ask for the right to not have to move... to get a no trade clause or a no move clause in their contracts

you are telling me they need to suck it up and live with your own limitations. im telling you no they don't. and they don't want to. and the no trade clause/no move protection is something they went through a lockout to get. they were demanding it. the owners gave to them because it was better than a lockout.

as long as the ntc/nmc is part of the cba… players have a right to ask for it. if the teams collusion and stop giving it they will open themselves up to a billion dollar lawsuit for bargaining in bad faith. the ntc/nmc is part of a legally agreed to cba. same as the 18 year old draft.

fans and even media types can talk about this all they want... but if they don't understand how the laws of the land and the laws of class labor bargaining work then the argument is pointless

im not saying every single player deserves this ntc/nmc protection. you should only keep the guys that you feel will help your team. but I am saying if we don't give it to our important guys, eventually all of our important guys will stop thinking we are a good place to put down roots. we will get a reputation... get out of boston the second you can.

the better players now days expect to be in control of where they want to play. they fought to lower the age of ufa to 27. they fought for no move clauses.

the writing is clearly on the wall. they wanted it. they fought for it. its legal.

you and me might not be able to force our boss to give us an extra coffee break... but these players have all the power in the world to get a nmc and use it to their advantage
 
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LSCII

Cup driven
Mar 1, 2002
50,473
21,962
Central MA
You make it seem like the Bruins had dynasty talent, so good they could win a Cup and go to another final with a coach that flat out sucked.

Seem to recall the Bruins leading by a goal with less than two minutes left in Game 6 of the finals against the Black Hawks. Ready for a Game 7. "Roll 4" didn't give up 2 goals in the last 2 minutes. The Bruins best players did. Probably because they were not as good as Chicago's best players.

So, I disagree completely. Claude made them into the legit contenders they were.

Dynasty? No, not at all. But a playoff team with that core/roster? Absolutely. It was a f***ing joke that they didn't qualify two years in a row, especially given that they were firmly in the playoff mix the entire season.

Chicago's best players were allowed the capacity to come up big in the biggest moments, by their coach. The Bruins players were told to skate their lanes and not deviate from the system. So yeah, you can put it on the players if you want, but ignoring Julien's coaching mistakes in that series is laughable. Also, isn't packing it in and trying to tread water for the last two minutes of a game desperately trying to hang onto a lead what I was talking about? You know, playing to tie instead of playing to win? Such a loser's mentality. Which is why he's gone. He played to keep it close, not to win.

But given how you've never even admitted any miscues by the guy when he was here, I wasn't expecting you to suddenly come to your senses...:laugh:
 

BigGoalBrad

Registered User
Jun 3, 2012
9,908
2,684
if you had a job like... say lawyer or... dentist... or whatever... some very important job that paid a lot and made you very valuable... and say... your boss moved

and say you wanted to establish your own office... and stay where you were with your clients? would you have to move then?

so... your job... whatever it is... if you want to keep it you must move. not all jobs are like that

say im working at the burger flipping job... and they close shop. am I out of luck or can I go across the street to the burger preperations job shop? in hockey there is only 1 employer... 1 employer means monopoly. it gets government right to work legislation involved. it gets combinds legistlation involved.

theres very strong rules around monopolys. and in some areas... very strong laws reguarding the right to work. so in order to stay legal... pro sports leagues like nhl must allow their employees to unionize. theres a lot of laws about how unions work too... how they are allowed to negotiate a cba that can address issues and concerns of its member body.

some unions are able to request things other unions cant. it all depends how valuable the union is to the employer and how much the employer needs this specialized work force

can the nhl just get rid of the current 720 hockey players and replace them with a new group of 720? or would they lose billions of dollars trying to do that?

so... the players ask for the right to not have to move... to get a no trade clause or a no move clause in their contracts

you are telling me they need to suck it up and live with your own limitations. im telling you no they don't. and they don't want to. and the no trade clause/no move protection is something they went through a lockout to get. they were demanding it. the owners gave to them because it was better than a lockout.

as long as the ntc/nmc is part of the cba… players have a right to ask for it. if the teams collusion and stop giving it they will open themselves up to a billion dollar lawsuit for bargaining in bad faith. the ntc/nmc is part of a legally agreed to cba. same as the 18 year old draft.

fans and even media types can talk about this all they want... but if they don't understand how the laws of the land and the laws of class labor bargaining work then the argument is pointless

im not saying every single player deserves this ntc/nmc protection. you should only keep the guys that you feel will help your team. but I am saying if we don't give it to our important guys, eventually all of our important guys will stop thinking we are a good place to put down roots. we will get a reputation... get out of boston the second you can.

the better players now days expect to be in control of where they want to play. they fought to lower the age of ufa to 27. they fought for no move clauses.

the writing is clearly on the wall. they wanted it. they fought for it. its legal.

you and me might not be able to force our boss to give us an extra coffee break... but these players have all the power in the world to get a nmc and use it to their advantage

I just have a longer commute its life I'm cool with and of course we are all free to change jobs if I wasn't. But staying put geographically isn't an option keeping my current job with my 5 minute commute wasn't an option the office was moving and theres nothing I can do about it.

These days every vet gets a NMC/NTC with their long term contract. Its become assumed that a deal involves one.

Guys who aren't living up to their contracts and expectations can't get a fresh start with a team that wants them and thinks they'd fill a role better than the current team does. If one burger chain has 10 experts at cooking fries at one location and another location has 10 burger cooking experts but no fries expert wouldn't it make sense to have 5 employees at each location switch?

How did the people who play hockey for work do when they were forced to relocate to Las Vegas last year? Everyone on that team had the best season of their career.

F defending the fact that every dude and his mother has an NTC/NMC in the NHL it sucks and is awful for the league. And of course these guys have families and parts of the job are tough on them. But if you want to feel bad for a kid of a player that gets traded for having to change schools you should feel bad for a guy like Tavares's kids too they are changing schools too.
 

Gonzothe7thDman

Registered User
Jun 24, 2007
15,092
14,730
Central, Ma
I just have a longer commute its life I'm cool with and of course we are all free to change jobs if I wasn't. But staying put geographically isn't an option keeping my current job with my 5 minute commute wasn't an option the office was moving and theres nothing I can do about it.

These days every vet gets a NMC/NTC with their long term contract. Its become assumed that a deal involves one.

Guys who aren't living up to their contracts and expectations can't get a fresh start with a team that wants them and thinks they'd fill a role better than the current team does. If one burger chain has 10 experts at cooking fries at one location and another location has 10 burger cooking experts but no fries expert wouldn't it make sense to have 5 employees at each location switch?

How did the people who play hockey for work do when they were forced to relocate to Las Vegas last year? Everyone on that team had the best season of their career.

F defending the fact that every dude and his mother has an NTC/NMC in the NHL it sucks and is awful for the league. And of course these guys have families and parts of the job are tough on them. But if you want to feel bad for a kid of a player that gets traded for having to change schools you should feel bad for a guy like Tavares's kids too they are changing schools too.

That should be up to the employee. Its the companies job to build the best staff long term, and if site A keeps hiring expert fry cookers, they should fire the hiring manager.
 

Alberta_OReilly_Fan

Bruin fan since 1975
Nov 26, 2006
14,331
3,941
Edmonton Canada
I thought the team overreacted to missing the postseason in 2015. Maybe they were worried that ticket sales would drop. I don't know.

I saw the Chiarelli and the Julien firing coming a million miles away the second cam neely got hired after they did. right or wrong, he made it clear to me he wanted to be THE MAN. unfortunately anything that was happening positively involving people before neely got hired was their credit and not his.

in order for neely to be THE MAN he had to be the one to hire everyone. you see this a lot in sports. new head coach fires all the old assitent coach. new gm fires the old head coach. im not saying neely did anything that wasn't to be expected or wasn't normal.

in our case... it was more complicated because usually you don't fire a gm who took his team to the cup finals 2 of the past 5 seasons and made the playoffs in 4 of those 5 years.

neely tipped his hand that this was personal and ego driven by making his move so quick. and it stunk a bit considering how he was actively interfering in the moves Chiarelli was attempting to make. at the end of the day, neely has the support of ownership and he had the authority to make the move so theres no sense crying over spilt milk. im just glad that Sweeney has been a very fine replacement. im old enough to remember when mike occonnel replaced sinden. not all replacements work out as well as sweeny has
 

EverettMike

FIRE DON SWEENEY INTO THE SUN
Mar 7, 2009
44,238
30,984
Everett, MA
twitter.com
I saw the Chiarelli and the Julien firing coming a million miles away the second cam neely got hired after they did. right or wrong, he made it clear to me he wanted to be THE MAN. unfortunately anything that was happening positively involving people before neely got hired was their credit and not his.

in order for neely to be THE MAN he had to be the one to hire everyone. you see this a lot in sports. new head coach fires all the old assitent coach. new gm fires the old head coach. im not saying neely did anything that wasn't to be expected or wasn't normal.

in our case... it was more complicated because usually you don't fire a gm who took his team to the cup finals 2 of the past 5 seasons and made the playoffs in 4 of those 5 years.

neely tipped his hand that this was personal and ego driven by making his move so quick. and it stunk a bit considering how he was actively interfering in the moves Chiarelli was attempting to make. at the end of the day, neely has the support of ownership and he had the authority to make the move so theres no sense crying over spilt milk. im just glad that Sweeney has been a very fine replacement. im old enough to remember when mike occonnel replaced sinden. not all replacements work out as well as sweeny has

Yeah, except they extended Julien in 2014. Weird if Neely wanted to be THE MAN that he was giving the old coach a lengthy extension.

Bruins Sign Claude Julien to Multi-Year Extension | Boston.com

Maybe, and hear me out, it was cause Chiarelli had done a shitty job for two straight years and the organization had squandered a great team with a great future.
 

Rubber Biscuit

Registered User
Sep 9, 2010
13,752
8,277
Long Island
I saw the Chiarelli and the Julien firing coming a million miles away the second cam neely got hired after they did. right or wrong, he made it clear to me he wanted to be THE MAN. unfortunately anything that was happening positively involving people before neely got hired was their credit and not his.

in order for neely to be THE MAN he had to be the one to hire everyone. you see this a lot in sports. new head coach fires all the old assitent coach. new gm fires the old head coach. im not saying neely did anything that wasn't to be expected or wasn't normal.

in our case... it was more complicated because usually you don't fire a gm who took his team to the cup finals 2 of the past 5 seasons and made the playoffs in 4 of those 5 years.

neely tipped his hand that this was personal and ego driven by making his move so quick. and it stunk a bit considering how he was actively interfering in the moves Chiarelli was attempting to make. at the end of the day, neely has the support of ownership and he had the authority to make the move so theres no sense crying over spilt milk. im just glad that Sweeney has been a very fine replacement. im old enough to remember when mike occonnel replaced sinden. not all replacements work out as well as sweeny has

Neely was hired in 2007. At that point, you saw that Chiarelli and Julien would eventually be fired? Bold.
 

GloryDaze4877

Barely Irrelevant
Jun 27, 2006
44,395
13,873
The Sticks (West MA)
Yeah, except they extended Julien in 2014. Weird if Neely wanted to be THE MAN that he was giving the old coach a lengthy extension.

Bruins Sign Claude Julien to Multi-Year Extension | Boston.com

Maybe, and hear me out, it was cause Chiarelli had done a ****ty job for two straight years and the organization had squandered a great team with a great future.

If I could like this post a million times, I would.

Can we please stop this idea that the Chia firing was some agenda thing by a power mad Neely? As long as Chia and Julien were performing, Neely was willing to overlook the fact that they weren’t “his guys”. It didn’t become an issue until Chia started going downhill.

And honestly, I don’t blame Neely for wanting to get a guy into the position he picked and trusted, when that position reflects directly on him.
 

BigGoalBrad

Registered User
Jun 3, 2012
9,908
2,684
Yeah, except they extended Julien in 2014. Weird if Neely wanted to be THE MAN that he was giving the old coach a lengthy extension.

Bruins Sign Claude Julien to Multi-Year Extension | Boston.com

Maybe, and hear me out, it was cause Chiarelli had done a ****ty job for two straight years and the organization had squandered a great team with a great future.

A team of Ex Bruins probably beats the Bruins over a 7 game series.

The organization has done some nice things but we should have the most Cups of this era and should not be looking up at Pitt, LA, and Chicago. We have the best defensive D man of all time along with likely the best defensive center of all time. And all the talent that has passed through and been traded for pennies on the dollar. Always giving up the best player in the deal and never getting the best player.
 

missingchicklet

Registered User
Jan 24, 2010
36,589
34,463

BruinDust

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
24,281
21,610
You know the Chiarelli era lasted 9 seasons in Boston and has been over now for 3 seasons.

Back in 2009, did posters re-hash the previous MOC/Sinden/Thornton/Samsonov era (1997 until 2006) as much as folks beat to death the Chiarelli/Julien/Bergeron/Chara era?

Just asking cause this topic seems like it's really old news at this point.
 

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