TSN: Some Powerful Words from Bob Mackenzie about Liljgren and Sandin

ottomaddox

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Oct 31, 2017
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Yesterday on TSN Overdrive Hour 3 Bob Mackenzie responding to the Zaitsev situation:

"Leaf Fans are saying: "just bring up Liljgren, just bring up Sandin, bring up Rosen...

My understanding of the situation is that there is no guarantee whatsoever. And I think it's a reach to suggest Timothy Liljgren and especially Rasmus Sandin. These guys are not NHL ready. Not prime time ready...

...if you remove Gardiner, Hainsey, and now Zaitsev. You tell me: who's replacing them? If it's Calle Rosen then that's fine but you better find some other people that can play defense "



What do you think of this? Do you agree? Are Sandin and Liljgren too far away in their development?

I think many people see this Zaitsev request as a blessing, but replacing 3 main D-players is going to be a massive undertaking. Instead of tinkering with the Roster to go deep into the playoffs, Dubas has to fill large holes.
 

Isaac Nootin

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Sep 28, 2017
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I think Bob McKenzie is great with his sources/contacts and probably the most reliable guy in the business, but when it comes to the actual hockey side of things, judging talent, prospects etc. he's not as reliable.

Not that I necessarily disagree with him, but when I hear it from Dubas/Babs/Shanny/Keefe, then I'll consider them powerful words.
 

Bomber0104

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Nothing controversial about that take. Pure delusion to think that not only those prospects can crack the roster, but also be effective in their minutes.

Rielly was drafted when...2013?

Fast forward 6 years and we're now seeing a fully developed defenceman contributing at his peak, and he was a 5th overall draft pick.
 

Trapper

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Nov 21, 2013
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Yesterday on TSN Overdrive Hour 3 Bob Mackenzie responding to the Zaitsev situation:

"Leaf Fans are saying: "just bring up Liljgren, just bring up Sandin, bring up Rosen...

My understanding of the situation is that there is no guarantee whatsoever. And I think it's a reach to suggest Timothy Liljgren and especially Rasmus Sandin. These guys are not NHL ready. Not prime time ready...

...if you remove Gardiner, Hainsey, and now Zaitsev. You tell me: who's replacing them? If it's Calle Rosen then that's fine but you better find some other people that can play defense "



What do you think of this? Do you agree? Are Sandin and Liljgren too far away in their development?

I think many people see this Zaitsev request as a blessing, but replacing 3 main D-players is going to be a massive undertaking. Instead of tinkering with the Roster to go deep into the playoffs, Dubas has to fill large holes.
Yes it’s spot on.

We aren’t debating the long term potential of these players.
We are in trouble right now.
It could take 3-5 years for these guys to get NHL comfortable and the same applies to Dermott when people simply suggest pair him with Rielly on his offside.

You can only put so much money into forward at the expense of D/goaltending + competent backup.
 

Isaac Nootin

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I've been saying this all along. I don't get how fans can watch our franchise destroy prospect after prospect, only to switch to the overcooking method, see the benefits of a full farm system, and then want to rush our best prospects.

What prospects have been "over cooked"? Nylander/Kapanen spent almost the exact same amount of time with the Marlies as Liljegren has. I think he starts the year with the Leafs.

Sandin goes back and dominates in the AHL for another year. Maybe a 9 game call up to end the season.
 
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Kamiccolo

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What prospects have been "over cooked"? Nylander/Kapanen spent almost the exact same amount of time with the Marlies as Liljegren has. I think he starts the year with the Leafs.

Sandin goes back and dominates in the AHL for another year. Maybe a 9 game call up to end the season.

Uhh.. All of them?

Nylander would have made the NHL after his half AHL season under previous management. He went back and played a full year afterwords.

Marner went back to junior and was a man among boys having a season so dominant it's in consideration for best of all time in the CHL.

Dermott had an amazing season and was sent back the following year for half a year. Babs was quoted after saying "You never hurt them by sending them back".

Did you just miss the entire Lou era? Are you a recent bandwagon fan?

You really can't tell the difference between how they've handled development lately vs even 6 years ago?
 

Orfieus

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Nov 2, 2012
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I don't think any reasonable fan would think Sandin is ready, it's usually the fans who only know hype and score sheets who think Sandin should be called up

As for Liljegren I would 100% agree with Bob except the playoffs really showed me the type of player Liljegren is and I think he earned that 3rd RHD spot
 
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MoreMogilny

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Nothing controversial about that take. Pure delusion to think that not only those prospects can crack the roster, but also be effective in their minutes.

Rielly was drafted when...2013?

Fast forward 6 years and we're now seeing a fully developed defenceman contributing at his peak, and he was a 5th overall draft pick.

Rielly was drafted in 2012, spent one season in the minors, then was a full time NHL player.

Development is different for every single prospect, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest at least one of the two young defensemen could play meaningful minutes next season, especially considering both have logged considerable pro level minutes, something that’s Rielly did not prior to joining the Leafs.

I like Bob, but I don’t find his perspective the most powerful.

Also, outside of Lil and Sandin, we have other D who definitely could push for a spot.
 

Isaac Nootin

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Uhh.. All of them?

Nylander would have made the NHL after his half AHL season under previous management. He went back and played a full year afterwords.

Marner went back to junior and was a man among boys having a season so dominant it's in consideration for best of all time in the CHL.

Dermott had an amazing season and was sent back the following year for half a year. Babs was quoted after saying "You never hurt them by sending them back".

Did you just miss the entire Lou era? Are you a recent bandwagon fan?

You really can't tell the difference between how they've handled development lately vs even 6 years ago?

Ok, so Lil playing 2 seasons for the Marlies is what? Unless of course you think he's had 2 relatively poor seasons.

Nobody was over cooked. They came up when they were ready.
 
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Cor

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It’s reasonable to think that having both leading the Marlies for at least another half season is what is best.

That said, I think Liljegren could make the Leafs opening day lineup. Excelling at the AHL level, and with a good summer, and the Leafs having a hole or 3 on the right side, especially with Dermott out for the first two months or so.
 
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Shanty

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What prospects have been "over cooked"? Nylander/Kapanen spent almost the exact same amount of time with the Marlies as Liljegren has. I think he starts the year with the Leafs.

Sandin goes back and dominates in the AHL for another year. Maybe a 9 game call up to end the season.

You can't compare the career paths of wingers and defensemen, they're two completely different situations.
 

Kamiccolo

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Ok, so Lil playing 2 seasons for the Marlies is what? Unless of course you think he's had 2 relatively poor seasons.

Nobody was over cooked. They came up when they were ready.

He played 2 seasons while being the game of a junior player. In a normal development curve he would only be in the AHL next season as a rookie. D take longer to develop and everyone knows Lilly was a project the moment he was drafted.

He takes a ton of critiscm and finally breaks out in the playoffs, and you want to rush him. Nah, let him dominate the AHL for a year first. He needs to confidence. Not like he is such a difference maker that him being down costs us a legit top 4 D. IMO he's a bottom pair D next season if he comes up anyways. He still has more to learn.

Let Keefe keep working with him.
 

Sypher04

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I also have been on record saying that I think Sandin & Liljegren would be better served playing in the AHL next year, and that from a contract standpoint going forward it may be in our best interest as well.

The only situation in which I conceded I'd like to see Liljegren up is if we're sitting here in October and currently have Justin Holl penciled in somewhere on the right side. I think at that point, Liljegren is the better option, but this isn't a legit concern of mine. Signing depth defense to avoid that should be quite simple.
 

Isaac Nootin

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He played 2 seasons while being the game of a junior player. In a normal development curve he would only be in the AHL next season as a rookie. D take longer to develop and everyone knows Lilly was a project the moment he was drafted.

He takes a ton of critiscm and finally breaks out in the playoffs, and you want to rush him. Nah, let him dominate the AHL for a year first. He needs to confidence. Not like he is such a difference maker that him being down costs us a legit top 4 D. IMO he's a bottom pair D next season if he comes up anyways. He still has more to learn.

Let Keefe keep working with him.

I'm not sure what you were watching, but Liljegren did not just break out in the playoffs. He was great all year long. People just started paying attention in the playoffs.
 

4thline

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Bob contributing from sources and whispers he's heard around the league= gold standard of hockey information
Bob contributing his own thoughts and evaluations = mediocre to above average HF poster. Intelligent but not an "authority"

In this case I agree with him on Sandin, but Liljegren requires context. He's not ready to come up and be a saviour in the top 4. There's a very good chance he's ready to come up and adjust to the NHL in a 3rd pairing role.
 

Bomber0104

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Rielly was drafted in 2012, spent one season in the minors, then was a full time NHL player.

Development is different for every single prospect, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest at least one of the two young defensemen could play meaningful minutes next season, especially considering both have logged considerable pro level minutes, something that’s Rielly did not prior to joining the Leafs.

I like Bob, but I don’t find his perspective the most powerful.

Also, outside of Lil and Sandin, we have other D who definitely could push for a spot.

It's possible. I just don't see it as likely though.

Hopefully management can find a way to bulldoze some capspace off our payroll and bring in some established defencemen.

I'd feel a lot better going into next season without half our d corps coming in as question marks.
 
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CantLoseWithMatthews

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I've been saying this all along. I don't get how fans can watch our franchise destroy prospect after prospect, only to switch to the overcooking method, see the benefits of a full farm system, and then want to rush our best prospects.
do you really think either of these guys would be destroyed if they played for the Leafs at all next year? Especially Liljegren
 

Isaac Nootin

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do you really think either of these guys would be destroyed if they played for the Leafs at all next year? Especially Liljegren

They wouldn't, and as you mentioned, especially Liljegren. People are quick to point to his age, yet forget he's been playing pro hockey for 4 seasons, since 2015.
 

Kamiccolo

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do you really think either of these guys would be destroyed if they played for the Leafs at all next year? Especially Liljegren

No I don't, but why risk it? Why risk it when we can send him back for 6 months like they did with Dermott and make sure he is ready.

Or you can put him in the NHL with half the defense retooled and the pressure of being a D in Toronto. He'll be the guy who will fix the defense, and then he will make some boneheaded plays which fans will take out on him. For a guy who seems to have taken time to get his head about himself, I think it's better to make sure he is ready.
 
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Trapper

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Bob contributing from sources and whispers he's heard around the league= gold standard of hockey information
Bob contributing his own thoughts and evaluations = mediocre to above average HF poster. Intelligent but not an "authority"

In this case I agree with him on Sandin, but Liljegren requires context. He's not ready to come up and be a saviour in the top 4. There's a very good chance he's ready to come up and adjust to the NHL in a 3rd pairing role.
None of our Marlies should see the top 4 while they are learning the ropes.
Making the team 5/6/7 is different from here’s Crosby/Malkin/Ovi/Kucherov/etc every night.
Doesn’t change the fact that we need a really solid 22 minute/night top 4 D to handle things.
 

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