Soccer Prospect Discussion Thread IV

Status
Not open for further replies.

Duchene2MacKinnon

In the hands of Genius
Aug 8, 2006
45,300
9,465
If he keeps his head straight, develops well, & remains healthy, he could :dunno: But please ignore all of those conditions and continue misrepresenting what I said ;-)

And it's actually really atypical for me for me to mention that trophy for any German prospects. Draxler is the only other I've said had the raw talent to ever win even a single BdO, and that was predicated on him becoming an RVP (or later-CR7) like forward...not stagnating for 4-5 seasons, leaving him now little better than he was as an 18-year-old.

Correa will win multiple BdO if he becomes Messi... Barco too.;)

The idea that a prospect becoming a big time player but failing to do so (for what ever reason)is the issue.

I am certain you've claimed this about one/two other German prospects.

As I said regarding our last conversation you tend to over hype German prospects...I will continue to call you out on outrageous statements. Sue me.

I do it with @Evilo too. So, no worries.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
59,988
19,060
w/ Renly's Peach
Thats kind of close to what I'd have with some small variations.

GK: Steffen|Hamid|Bono
RB: Yedlin|Cannon|Lindsey
CB: Palmer-Brown|Glad|Miazga|Carter-Vickers
LB: Acosta|Robinson|Saief
6: McKennie|Durkin|Trapp
8: Parks|Booth|Delgado
10: Carleton|Pomykal
LW: de la Fuente|Amon|Taitague
RW: Pulisic
CF: Weah|Sargent|Wright

I'll cap it at players through 2001 because the others are just too far away, but there are already some big prospects in younger age groups.

Didn't list Adams, Araujo because too much is up in the air about what positions they play, but both belong somewhere here. Adams will be the RB starter, if he becomes a full-time RB. Araujo is probably a 6, but what if he grows? He also hasn't played as a 6 before. I can't juggle all that, so I'll leave him out for now.

Brooks is a starter at CB, if his traveling emergency room clears him to play and he stops wilting against CONCACAF minnows. But a lot of variables there. I like Chandler as the best RB for now, but everyone else hates him because they think he's not committed to the NT. I think he's probably done getting call ups.

I have a hard time ranking the younger CB's because we are already pretty good with young CB's and they are just considerably behind for now, but I wouldn't rule out Akanyirige, Richards and McKenzie from that list. I'll keep keeper to mostly older players because players usually develop later. Its just too hard to know, especially when they are mostly youth players. If there are less than three listed at a position, its because the back ups come from players already listed. Third 10 is probably Pulisic. Second and third RW are probably Pomykal and Taitague.

Not having watched many of these kids who aren't in germany, I'd list Araujo at the 6, CB & even FB if he has the athleticism for it. Even if he doesn't grow taller he can succeed at any of those spots if he's skilled, smart & quick enough. I've seen a few kids like that in german football in the past decade or so that I've been following it; some became FBs like Kolasinac, some became 6s like Gokhan Gul, but some have also succeeded at CB (especially in a back three where they can have two taller partners to cover for them). So if you really think his skillset is great at CB & height is the only thing holding him back, list him there until he a) proves that it will keep him from success at that position and b) doesn't grow any more.

Similarly, I'd list adams as a deeper midfielder, FB & more advanced midfielder/box to boxer if his dynamism and base skillset would work at them. If you must pick just one spot, I'd put him at the spot you believe he fits best until it becomes clearly that he'll never play there in his career...i.e. why I kept Kimmich at the 6 until I accepted that Bayern weren't going to buy a Lahm replacement to let Joshua play the position he's best suited for.

For some reason I thought Brooks was a lot older, but I still think he's upgradeable...even if he is good in the air & physically gifted...and as you mentioned, his injury issues make him unreliable in either case.

And just from your description of Carlton, he sounded like a Xavi or Kroos type, who were pure 10s as youth players, but moved deeper...so that their passing & skill could still be influential without their lack of mobility being an issue that limited their teams' transition game...to reach their greatest heights at the senior level. aka sounds like he could be in line for a Meyer-esque shift to the 6 or 8 to best utilize his talents alongide (a) more robust midfield partner(s).
 

Duchene2MacKinnon

In the hands of Genius
Aug 8, 2006
45,300
9,465
You can go at it and link me to those outlandish statements I'm supposed to have made.
Hazard being compared to a Messi...he so far isn't even a top 10 player at any point in his career. Some of that maybe because he plays on the offensive blackhole known as Chelsea but that's a fact... what ever the cause is.

My personal favourite is your opinion of Sakho. I understand that one tends to view a critique as an attack on the person or the credibility but I assure you it's not. I have made outrageous claims myself. No person is immune to it after we are human and fall in love with certain players talents.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
59,988
19,060
w/ Renly's Peach

I don't think I ever mentioned BdO's with him. Especially since so much of the time I'd talk about him was to rail against the way people where miscasting him with the "german-Messi" hype when I repeatedly said we should be calling him the "german-Iniesta" instead...especially after the Bayern board sold him to pep as an alternative to Neymar, when he was so clearly a completely different kind of player :-/

But he was a similar raw talent to Draxler, so I may well have & just not remember it. Still, that brings the list of german's I've hyped as potential BdO winners...if they develop well...to two before Moukoko. Which still doesn't make me putting Moukoko in that tier "typical CGF" like D2M accused.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
61,958
8,526
France
Hazard being compared to a Messi...he so far isn't even a top 10 player at any point in his career. Some of that maybe because he plays on the offensive blackhole known as Chelsea but that's a fact... what ever the cause is.

My personal favourite is your opinion of Sakho. I understand that one tends to view a critique as an attack on the person or the credibility but I assure you it's not. I have made outrageous claims myself. No person is immune to it after we are human and fall in love with certain players talents.
Hazard compared to Messi?
WTF are you talking about?
It's OK to talk shit, but please don't make up some stuff.
I SAID MANY TIMES that Hazard had the potential to be #3 in the world. That's behind Messi and even Ronaldo.
OTOH, I did say when he was 16 that he would be a star. Which was spot on.

As for Sakho, please link me to an outlandish post I made about him. Please do. I said he was an excellent CB, nowhere did I say he was a top CB in the world or anything of the sort.
I think the best thing I said about him was that he was a top 10 CB in the EPL. Which is probably far from outlandish.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
59,988
19,060
w/ Renly's Peach
Correa will win multiple BdO if he becomes Messi... Barco too.;)

The idea that a prospect becoming a big time player but failing to do so (for what ever reason)is the issue.

I am certain you've claimed this about one/two other German prospects.

As I said regarding our last conversation you tend to over hype German prospects...I will continue to call you out on outrageous statements. Sue me.

I do it with @Evilo too. So, no worries.

I meant that in terms of their usage as their team's primary goalscorers, which is why I specified later-CR7, and I think you know that.

Draxler's wasted half a decade of his prime developmental years, and will never be a BdO candidate...but that doesn't mean that he didn't have the raw talent, off the ball instincts, and physical gifts, to have become one if his development had gone differently. I'm not much of a fatalist and don't think that all great players would've become great players no matter what, and that all players who failed to become great couldn't have become great if their development had gone differently. And Draxler is a prime case of that.

I never said he would reach those levels, just that he had that kind of potential. Just like Correa's utter failure doesn't mean that he didn't have exciting potential back when you were "overhyping" him ;-)

And you only say that because I'm the only person you know who talks about german prospects...there's a ton of german kids that get a lot of hype that you never hear me talk about because I don't buy their hype or feel confident in them living up to it even though I agree they have the potential...and because you are usually reacting to my comments about potential & raw upside, not my comments about the levels I am convinced a prospect will reach.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
61,958
8,526
France
The most outlandish claim I made about a french prospect was saying that 18 year old Ben Arfa would be a star. Outlandish it was not because HBA had special talent. It has become outlandish because he hasn't lived up to his potential.

So where are those links about outlandish claims I made? I mean, real ones, not made up ones.
 

Duchene2MacKinnon

In the hands of Genius
Aug 8, 2006
45,300
9,465
I don't think I ever mentioned BdO's with him. Especially since so much of the time I'd talk about him was to rail against the way people where miscasting him with the "german-Messi" hype when I repeatedly said we should be calling him the "german-Iniesta" instead...especially after the Bayern board sold him to pep as an alternative to Neymar, when he was so clearly a completely different kind of player :-/

But he was a similar raw talent to Draxler, so I may well have & just not remember it. Still, that brings the list of german's I've hyped as potential BdO winners...if they develop well...to two before Moukoko. Which still doesn't make me putting Moukoko in that tier "typical CGF" like D2M accused.

We've had this exact discussion before... I just can't find the post anymore from a couple of years ago. Claiming some German prospect was destined for multiple BoD trophies prompting my joke of not many left for Ozil/Rues.

I hate new HF

Hazard compared to Messi?
WTF are you talking about?
It's OK to talk ****, but please don't make up some stuff.
I SAID MANY TIMES that Hazard had the potential to be #3 in the world. That's behind Messi and even Ronaldo.
OTOH, I did say when he was 16 that he would be a star. Which was spot on.

As for Sakho, please link me to an outlandish post I made about him. Please do. I said he was an excellent CB, nowhere did I say he was a top CB in the world or anything of the sort.
I think the best thing I said about him was that he was a top 10 CB in the EPL. Which is probably far from outlandish.

It was with you rating giving him a 9.5B or whatever and mentioning Messi.

Pretty sure you claimed Sakho would be a top 10 defender in the world. Now that's down right scandalous if you ask me. Not trying to pick a fight just trying to make CGF feel better.

I meant that in terms of their usage as their team's primary goalscorers, which is why I specified later-CR7, and I think you know that.

I never said he would reach those levels, just that he had that kind of potential. Just like Correa's utter failure doesn't mean that he didn't have exciting potential back when you were "overhyping" him ;-)

Oh I did overhype him to an extent. He still has potential to be a good player. Just not the elite player I thought. I have no qualms in admitting it. I already told you what I perceive to be the difference is though.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
61,958
8,526
France
It was with you rating giving him a 9.5B or whatever and mentioning Messi.

Pretty sure you claimed Sakho would be a top 10 defender in the world. Now that's down right scandalous if you ask me. Not trying to pick a fight just trying to make CGF feel better.
So you don't even read and you make up some stuff. Great. :facepalm:
Messi's a 10A. 10 as all time great and A as sure fire one.
Hazard being a 9.5 means the tier under, and B decent chance of reaching it.
Nothing outlandish in that. Extremely fair in fact. Spot on.

As for Sakho being top 10 in the EPL certainly doesn't mean top 10 in the world. :huh:
 

Duchene2MacKinnon

In the hands of Genius
Aug 8, 2006
45,300
9,465
So you don't even read and you make up some stuff. Great. :facepalm:
Messi's a 10A. 10 as all time great and A as sure fire one.
Hazard being a 9.5 means the tier under, and B decent chance of reaching it.
Nothing outlandish in that. Extremely fair in fact. Spot on.

As for Sakho being top 10 in the EPL certainly doesn't mean top 10 in the world. :huh:
You mentioned Messi when talking about Hazard...

and Sakho was claimed to be a top 10 CB in the world. You know changed it to the EPL. Either way he plays for a regulation side and sucks ass. Always has. You were wrong, no matter the degree. lIke I said not picking a fight just calling it like I see it.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
61,958
8,526
France
I mentionned Messi. And?

And no, I claimed Sakho was a top 10 CB in the EPL. Don't make some stuff up. And if you think he sucks, you suck at evaluating players. So you're wrong.

0 for 2. That's pretty bad. Accusing someone of outlandish claims and unable to remember it properly, which blows into your face.
 

Duchene2MacKinnon

In the hands of Genius
Aug 8, 2006
45,300
9,465
I mentionned Messi. And?

And no, I claimed Sakho was a top 10 CB in the EPL. Don't make some stuff up. And if you think he sucks, you suck at evaluating players. So you're wrong.

0 for 2. That's pretty bad. Accusing someone of outlandish claims and unable to remember it properly, which blows into your face.

Meaning you compared him... I mean I would look these up but new HF everything is weird.

Nah, pretty sure it was claiming Sakho could be a top 10 defender. Either he is not a top 10 in the EPL. If he doesn't suck where does he play for?

Nothing blew up in my face... just your ego.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
59,988
19,060
w/ Renly's Peach
We've had this exact discussion before... I just can't find the post anymore from a couple of years ago. Claiming some German prospect was destined for multiple BoD trophies prompting my joke of not many left for Ozil/Rues.

I hate new HF

Oh I did overhype him to an extent. He still has potential to be a good player. Just not the elite player I thought. I have no qualms in admitting it. I already told you what I perceive to be the difference is though.

I still have no memories of mentioning them seriously with any but Draxler, Gotze & now Moukoko...and I don't even remember mentioning it with Mario, although I'm willing to believe that I did if Evilo is confident he remembers me saying it. Are you sure you aren't thinking of one of my half-joking posts about JoJo or my fully tongue-in-cheek posts about Avdijaj?


But what potential they still have now doesn't retroactively downgrade the potential that they used to have. Just like Draxler no longer having the potential to be elite doesn't mean it wasn't there when he was 18. Or are you saying that you now think that you were mistaken to think Correa had elite potential back then; before he stagnated & started to tend towards some Lavezzi-esque decisions?

Unrealized potential =/= non-existent potential, being the idea I'm getting at and what is at play with Draxler who's issue hasn't been his instincts, it's been his usage and lack of challenge. So even if Correa never actually had the mind for the potential you used to think he had, that's not quite the case with Draxler because re-wiring a player's instincts can be a massive under-taking. Draxler on the otherhand just needed to be played up front next to Huntelaar in his second season with Schalke, before moving to a bigger club where he would continue to be challenged...instead of wasting another few years in Gelsenkirchen and a couple in Wolfsburg. Those are much easier changes to have made to his development.
 
Last edited:

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
61,958
8,526
France
At least admit you're wrong on everything you've claimed here.
You said I made outlandish claims. I asked which and you came up with :
1/ "you compared Hazard to Messi" and then you talked about the 9.5b, which as I said means I projected Hazard to have the potential to be in the tier under Messi with a decent chance of reaching it. Not only is it not outlandish it's ABSOLUTELY spot on.
FAIL.

2/ You said I made outlandish claims about Sakho, which can only be in the top 10 EPL CB since I never made any other claim. You continue to make up stuff about top 10 in the world, which I never did. Even then just because you can't see properly evaluate his talent dosn't mean I'm wrong and in no way is it an outlandish claim.
FAIL AGAIN.

So in fact, the only outlandish claims in all of this is you trying desperately to say I made some by using either ridiculous arguments (Hazard/Messi) that prove me right or simply lies.

It's OK, you're not trying to start up a fight did you say. But you said I made outlandish claims about something I was right on and you made up the second part. That's a pretty bad way not to start up a fight.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
61,958
8,526
France
How many CBs were nominated for player of the month in the EPL? Not many.

He's a top 10 CB in the EPL. The outlandish claim is to say he sucks.
 

Duchene2MacKinnon

In the hands of Genius
Aug 8, 2006
45,300
9,465
At least admit you're wrong on everything you've claimed here.
You said I made outlandish claims. I asked which and you came up with :
1/ "you compared Hazard to Messi" and then you talked about the 9.5b, which as I said means I projected Hazard to have the potential to be in the tier under Messi with a decent chance of reaching it. Not only is it not outlandish it's ABSOLUTELY spot on.
FAIL.

2/ You said I made outlandish claims about Sakho, which can only be in the top 10 EPL CB since I never made any other claim. You continue to make up stuff about top 10 in the world, which I never did. Even then just because you can't see properly evaluate his talent dosn't mean I'm wrong and in no way is it an outlandish claim.
FAIL AGAIN.

So in fact, the only outlandish claims in all of this is you trying desperately to say I made some by using either ridiculous arguments (Hazard/Messi) that prove me right or simply lies.

It's OK, you're not trying to start up a fight did you say. But you said I made outlandish claims about something I was right on and you made up the second part. That's a pretty bad way not to start up a fight.

LOL you're hilarious.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
59,988
19,060
w/ Renly's Peach
He's a top 10 CB in the EPL.

74e.gif
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,230
23,101
New York
Not having watched many of these kids who aren't in germany, I'd list Araujo at the 6, CB & even FB if he has the athleticism for it. Even if he doesn't grow taller he can succeed at any of those spots if he's skilled, smart & quick enough. I've seen a few kids like that in german football in the past decade or so that I've been following it; some became FBs like Kolasinac, some became 6s like Gokhan Gul, but some have also succeeded at CB (especially in a back three where they can have two taller partners to cover for them). So if you really think his skillset is great at CB & height is the only thing holding him back, list him there until he a) proves that it will keep him from success at that position and b) doesn't grow any more.

He's a great CB. Best ball playing CB we have, he can dribble the ball all the way up the field into the final 1/3, very mobile, really good tackler, strong, good in the air for a shorter CB. I'm all for keeping him at CB right now, but projecting forward I don't think he'll be a CB.

Today, Mundo Deportivo did a feature on him. He trained at La Masia in March, and impressed the club. I wouldn't be shocked if he goes back there when he turns 18 during the Summer 2019 window. He plays for the Barca academy in the USA, and it seems like the purpose of that academy was to scoop up the best young American talent, and have an advantage in signing them to La Masia. One of his Youth National Team teammates, Konrad de la Fuente, already plays in the Barca academy.

Similarly, I'd list adams as a deeper midfielder, FB & more advanced midfielder/box to boxer if his dynamism and base skillset would work at them. If you must pick just one spot, I'd put him at the spot you believe he fits best until it becomes clearly that he'll never play there in his career...i.e. why I kept Kimmich at the 6 until I accepted that Bayern weren't going to buy a Lahm replacement to let Joshua play the position he's best suited for.

I worry about how Adams will do at Leipzig, if they use him as a midfielder. He's not a direct replacement for Naby Keita. I hope they didn't buy him as that. Some have compared him to Keita, but its a bad comparison outside of work-rate.

Adams is a very good full-back. I actually think he can play either side, and having CM versatility also isn't bad, but he is prone to getting bossed as a CM against good competition. Against lesser competition, he presses them really well, but good competition that can bypass a press, he just doesn't have the solutions to compete with them. I suspect we'll see this again on Saturday against France.

For some reason I thought Brooks was a lot older, but I still think he's upgradeable...even if he is good in the air & physically gifted...and as you mentioned, his injury issues make him unreliable in either case.

Brooks is also a very good passer. When he's on his game, he's Hummels-lite. Quicker attackers give him trouble and he's prone to concentration lapses, but he's can dominate matches. He's made a career off of doing that against Dortmund. If he didn't play for the USA, and stuck with Germany, he would be a better solution than someone like Rudiger or Ginter. He's a better player than them, although he's unreliable because he's always injured.

And just from your description of Carlton, he sounded like a Xavi or Kroos type, who were pure 10s as youth players, but moved deeper...so that their passing & skill could still be influential without their lack of mobility being an issue that limited their teams' transition game...to reach their greatest heights at the senior level. aka sounds like he could be in line for a Meyer-esque shift to the 6 or 8 to best utilize his talents alongide (a) more robust midfield partner(s).

He's somewhat similar to those players. Reminds me some of Goetze in passing ability, ball control, possession, body type, but I don't think he's going to move out of attacking midfield, at least not yet. The reason for this is despite all the athletic limitations, he has a habit of scoring and assisting goals. He has the best end product of any of the young American attackers, so we really can't move him into a deep-lying role. He's too valuable for his goal-scoring and assisting of goals. While he could assist some goals from a deeper role, his goal-scoring will be taken away. He's a threat to score anywhere within 30 yards of the goal, scored a terrific goal today in that style for his first goal with the Atlanta first team.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
59,988
19,060
w/ Renly's Peach
I worry about how Adams will do at Leipzig, if they use him as a midfielder. He's not a direct replacement for Naby Keita. I hope they didn't buy him as that. Some have compared him to Keita, but its a bad comparison outside of work-rate.

Adams is a very good full-back. I actually think he can play either side, and having CM versatility also isn't bad, but he is prone to getting bossed as a CM against good competition. Against lesser competition, he presses them really well, but good competition that can bypass a press, he just doesn't have the solutions to compete with them. I suspect we'll see this again on Saturday against France.



Brooks is also a very good passer. When he's on his game, he's Hummels-lite. Quicker attackers give him trouble and he's prone to concentration lapses, but he's can dominate matches. He's made a career off of doing that against Dortmund. If he didn't play for the USA, and stuck with Germany, he would be a better solution than someone like Rudiger or Ginter. He's a better player than them, although he's unreliable because he's always injured.



He's somewhat similar to those players. Reminds me some of Goetze in passing ability, ball control, possession, body type, but I don't think he's going to move out of attacking midfield, at least not yet. The reason for this is despite all the athletic limitations, he has a habit of scoring and assisting goals. He has the best end product of any of the young American attackers, so we really can't move him into a deep-lying role. He's too valuable for his goal-scoring and assisting of goals. While he could assist some goals from a deeper role, his goal-scoring will be taken away. He's a threat to score anywhere within 30 yards of the goal, scored a terrific goal today in that style for his first goal with the Atlanta first team.

Leipzig still have Kampl; the additions of Mukiele & Saracchi at FB, mean that Laimer will get to play in the midfield next season; Amadou Haidara is coming over from Salzburg; plus Abouchabaka might be signing his professional contract with, and he's an 8 as much as a 10. So Adams won't be thrown into a big role unless he really impresses. Doubt he gets to play FB, on top of Mukiele & Saracchi, Klostermann is going nowhere and Halstenburg is looking like he'll stay...even if Bernardo gets sold.

Agree to disagree on Brooks' passing, it's nothing special IMO

Gotcha, then the tip of a triangle is probably best for Carlton.
 

Savant

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Oct 3, 2013
36,500
10,479
@Evilo LFC tried to sign a couple of young French guys. Know anything about either Rafik Guitane or Aurelien Nguiamba
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
61,958
8,526
France
I'm extremely high on Rafik Guitane. I talked about him a few times here and in our liga (where I drafted him). However, I'd be surprised if LFC had any involvement since he was signed (a big price) by Rennes last winter and loaned to Le Havre again for the stretch. He'll move to Rennes this summer. Doubt they sell him.
Nguimba is a well known youth selection midfielder. Haven't seen much of him though since he was not playing the games I saw.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Savant
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->