OT: Soccer/Football Thread Part Two

[Appleyard]

It's pretty unbelievable that a 90's Dutch national team didn't bring home some hardware after breaking through in Euro 88.

They were at the end of their prominence in 2002, but it was still shocking to see them miss out on World Cup qualification. I had forgotten that it was Portugal and Ireland that kept them out.

2002 was their best team in my eyes. On paper at least.

Seedorf, Davids, Kluivert, Cocu, van Bommel, van Nistelrooy, Maakay, Hasselbaink, van Bronckhorst, Reiziger, van der Saar, Stam all at pretty much their peaks or in primes.

van der Vaart emerging.

Numan, F. de Boer, R. de Boer, Overmars and van Hooijdonk all still high level.

Ofc Bergkamp had retired... but wonder if would have came back had qualified.

The backroom was a complete mess.

Had they managed to keep Rijkaard as manager I think they win either 2002 or 2004. Advocaat and van Gaal (which was a surprise given half the team were "his" guys from Ajax) were a mess for them.

 

[koyvoo]

What is funny thiugh is that if I played them in same midfield it would be Gerrard defering to Lampard and playing deeper as a result.

Gerrard was better defensively and controlled play better. While Lampard was better offensively with a better shot.

Rooney/Owen
Cole-Lampard-Beckham
Gerrard-Scholes
Cole-Campbell/Terry/King-Ferdinand-Neville
James

Would have won a tournament between 04-08 if deployed more like that I am sure. Put on Hargreaves for Scholes at 60 minutes when want some stability with a lead.

I didn’t like the problem
Solving to the perceived too many options on the midfield, but I’m still not sure we would’ve won a tournament. Could’ve, sure, but I don’t see how it can be a foregone conclusion. The biggest issue is that while were having a golden generation, other nations were in and around their own golden gens as well. And even though we’re getting there, at the time the general gap in technical ability, natural skill and creativity between continental Europe/South America and England was still pretty wide then. Plus, we didn’t even qualify for Euro 2008, and that had less to do with team selection than it did with straight shitting the bed.

The players of that era to this day claim the biggest problem is that they just hated each other along club lines. Crappy excuse if you ask me considering we’re not the only ones to deal with this on our NT and if Spain could conquer the Barca/Madrid divide, there’s no reason anyone else can’t.

 

[Appleyard]

No. Just ... no. Not a chance in ****ing Hell. You could maybe argue that Fat Frank was a better offensive player, or something, but better shot? Not on your life.

Maybe a "more consistent" shot would be more appropriate.

Gerrard was better from range. But not as accurate or as good at getting to positions to shoot.

 

[koyvoo]

The 2002 World Cup had many of the strongest teams (including those who didn’t qualify) out after the group stage.

 

[Appleyard]

I didn’t like the problem
Solving to the perceived too many options on the midfield, but I’m still not sure we would’ve won a tournament. Could’ve, sure, but I don’t see how it can be a foregone conclusion. The biggest issue is that while were having a golden generation, other nations were in and around their own golden gens as well. And even though we’re getting there, at the time the general gap in technical ability, natural skill and creativity between continental Europe/South America and England was still pretty wide then. Plus, we didn’t even qualify for Euro 2008, and that had less to do with team selection than it did with straight shitting the bed.

The players of that era to this day claim the biggest problem is that they just hated each other along club lines. Crappy excuse if you ask me considering we’re not the only ones to deal with this on our NT and if Spain could conquer the Barca/Madrid divide, there’s no reason anyone else can’t.

It would have been tough still. But they were so set in their ways at times and shoehorning guys into LM and not adapting formations.

I think players like Gerrard, Scholes, Lampard, Rooney, Ferdinand, Neville and A. Cole were just as good a technicians as their counterparts around the world. I think that is overstated at times and more the "style" of football England employed stymied that. None of them looked out of place playing more free flowing, technical football at their clubs.

I just wish we had the CBs now we had in the 2000s.

Campbell, Ferdinand, Terry, Woodgate, King... damn. Looking like maybe the big weak spot in the next few years with young, class players in almost every other position.

 

[Appleyard]

I dont disagree with the Gerrard being better defensively. I'm obviously biased here, but Lampard is probably my favorite player of all time. He was just such a beast when he played, and (almost) always with the right attitude, too. If i was starting a team and had them both to choose from, I'd have to tank Frankie, but i can understand why someone might take Gerrard.

And yeah, that England team should have been absolutely dominant. For the life of me, I can't understand how they never went anywhere. The bright side is that England's younger players are looking much better these days, so they may be the next 'big' team now that Belgium have mostly fizzled out.

Belgium not putting in a better showing in the last world cup/Euros was baffling to me too. That was another stacked team - albeit maybe not quite at the level of the England team here.

Roberto Martinez. Answer #1, #2 and #3.

Baffling decisions constantly.

I dont think they have fizzled out quite yet though. A lot still have years left.

Lukaku
Batshuayi
De Bruyne
Hazard
Meunier
Carrasco
Tielemens
Castagne
Denayer
Courtois

Are all 28 or under.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

It would have been tough still. But they were so set in their ways at times and shoehorning guys into LM and not adapting formations.

I think players like Gerrard, Scholes, Lampard, Rooney, Ferdinand, Neville and A. Cole were just as good a technicians as their counterparts around the world. I think that is overstated at times and more the "style" of football England employed stymied that. None of them looked out of place playing more free flowing, technical football at their clubs.

I just wish we had the CBs now we had in the 2000s.

Campbell, Ferdinand, Terry, Woodgate, King... damn. Looking like maybe the big weak spot in the next few years with young, class players in almost every other position.

David Seaman was an enormous problem for a while as well.

 

[Starat327]

It would have been tough still. But they were so set in their ways at times and shoehorning guys into LM and not adapting formations.

I think players like Gerrard, Scholes, Lampard, Rooney, Ferdinand, Neville and A. Cole were just as good a technicians as their counterparts around the world. I think that is overstated at times and more the "style" of football England employed stymied that. None of them looked out of place playing more free flowing, technical football at their clubs.

I just wish we had the CBs now we had in the 2000s.

Campbell, Ferdinand, Terry, Woodgate, King... damn. Looking like maybe the big weak spot in the next few years with young, class players in almost every other position.

What, you dont think Harry Maguire and John Stones are world class players?

 

[Appleyard]

David Seaman was an enormous problem for a while as well.

Yeh, he was pretty mediocre. Had talent but inconsistent.

And while James was a good shot shopper was a vampire... scared of crosses. Robinson was a better goalie but often overlooked.

I always though Tim Flowers was overlooked in mid-late 90s. Though Martyn was always amazing in Prem but poor for England when played... a better goalie than Seaman, but never took the job and ran for England.

 

[Starat327]

Roberto Martinez. Answer #1, #2 and #3.

Baffling decisions constantly.

I dont think they have fizzled out quite yet though. A lot still have years left.

Lukaku
Batshuayi
De Bruyne
Hazard
Meunier
Carrasco
Tielemens
Castagne
Denayer
Courtois

Are all 28 or under.

Im assuming you mean the younger Hazard, as Ededn turned 29 this year. I'm nit picking, i know, lol. However, the younger Hazard is playing quite well on his own and has really come into his own in the Bundesliga. I said it at the time that Chelsea would likely regret giving him up so easily.

I'd take Origi over Batshuayi, as well, here.

And yeah, Martinez is a joke. I guess I'm baffled by how he got another extension somewhat recently more than the team itself. They're still a good team, but they're definitely on the way down.

 

[Appleyard]

Im assuming you mean the younger Hazard, as Ededn turned 29 this year. I'm nit picking, i know, lol. However, the younger Hazard is playing quite well on his own and has really come into his own in the Bundesliga. I said it at the time that Chelsea would likely regret giving him up so easily.

I'd take Origi over Batshuayi, as well, here.

And yeah, Martinez is a joke. I guess I'm baffled by how he got another extension somewhat recently more than the team itself. They're still a good team, but they're definitely on the way down.

I would for club... but Batshuayi has been really good internationally. I mean, ofc can have both!

Have some good young guys too. Doku, Kana and Verschaeren have the ability to be national team mainstays by the time they are 21. All 17-18 now and great already. They are a similar quality at the same age that De Bruyne and Hazard were... though ofc the next 2-3 years are key to fulfilling that potential.

Cobbaut, Lokanga, Saelemaekers, Vanheusden and a few more also could be very high quality players.

 

[Starat327]

I would for club... but Batshuayi has been really good internationally. I mean, ofc can have both!

Have some good young guys too. Doku, Kana and Verschaeren have the ability to be national team mainstays by the time they are 21. All 17-18 now and great already. They are a similar quality at the same age that De Bruyne and Hazard were... though ofc the next 2-3 years are key to fulfilling that potential.

Cobbaut, Lokanga, Saelemaekers, Vanheusden and a few more also could be very high quality players.

They could have prime Ronaldo and Messi.. until they ditch Roberto, they'll always be trending down!

 

[Starat327]

I'm really excited to see how this England team takes shape. There's a LOT Of potential there that is all VERY young,

TAA, James, Chillwell, Tomori, Mount, Rice, Maddison, Sancho, CHO, Winks, Rashford, Abraham.. Theyre all like what, 23 and under? Then you've also got Foden, Davies, Conor Gallagher, Greenwood, in the U21s as well? To your earlier point - if they can hit on a CB or two (please be Tomori!), they're going to be in for a fun ride.

 

[Appleyard]

I'm really excited to see how this England team takes shape. There's a LOT Of potential there that is all VERY young,

TAA, James, Chillwell, Tomori, Mount, Rice, Maddison, Sancho, CHO, Winks, Rashford, Abraham.. Theyre all like what, 23 and under? Then you've also got Foden, Davies, Conor Gallagher, Greenwood, in the U21s as well? To your earlier point - if they can hit on a CB or two (please be Tomori!), they're going to be in for a fun ride.

Nketiah, Willock and Nelson as well...

I keep hoping they call up Ronaldo Vieira soon... Portugal are surely going to make a play for him soon.

 

[PDX Flyer]

Later era maybe. But the rest of Englands team had faded by then and did not have world class players in every position. 04-08 was best bet.

Scholes had already retired. I am specially speaking about the 2006 world cup

 

[Appleyard]

Scholes had already retired. I am specially speaking about the 2006 world cup

He might not have retired though under different circumstances!

But do know what you mean.

 

[PDX Flyer]

I'm really excited to see how this England team takes shape. There's a LOT Of potential there that is all VERY young,

TAA, James, Chillwell, Tomori, Mount, Rice, Maddison, Sancho, CHO, Winks, Rashford, Abraham.. Theyre all like what, 23 and under? Then you've also got Foden, Davies, Conor Gallagher, Greenwood, in the U21s as well? To your earlier point - if they can hit on a CB or two (please be Tomori!), they're going to be in for a fun ride.

England has a really good young goalie coming up too. On the books at United and had a really good season at Sheffield United on loan. Henderson I believe. He is going to make DeGea expendable

 

[PDX Flyer]

He might not have retired though under different circumstances!

But do know what you mean.

Yeah what was Scholes early England retirement about? I know he cited family but I feel there was more to it iirc

 

[Starat327]

England has a really good young goalie coming up too. On the books at United and had a really good season at Sheffield United on loan. Henderson I believe. He is going to make DeGea expendable

Yeah, I'm not sure qhy I forgot him, but he should replace Pickford yesterday. Pickford may be the most overrated keeper in modern times.

 

[PDX Flyer]

Someone has to replace Casey Keller

 

[Appleyard]

Yeah what was Scholes early England retirement about? I know he cited family but I feel there was more to it iirc

He had been played out of position for years with England... partially what was rumoured. As well as England playing shitty football that was not that much fun. But England refused to move away from 4-4-2.

 

[PDX Flyer]

He had been played out of position for years with England... partially what was rumoured. As well as England playing shitty football that was not that much fun. But England refused to move away from 4-4-2.

Out of position....that’s right. Thanks

 

[Starat327]

With the news of Sane not signing a contract at City (and assumingly going to Bayern to end their few year chase of him), that mostly puts the Havertz to Bayern rumor to bed.

We're apparently in the process of selling Kante to Real, which would a) give us the funds to sign Havertz and b) Limit some of Real's ability to spend unless they offload a few players.

 

[Appleyard]

On the topic of lowlands football...

if people have never seen him. Just wow.

Awful that he had to retire at 28 because of injury. When he was the best player on earth. They basically banned the tackle from behind due to losing his star after 3x ankle surgeries.

 

[PDX Flyer]

On the topic of lowlands football...

if people have never seen him. Just wow.

Awful that he had to retire at 28 because of injury. When he was the best player on earth. They basically banned the tackle from behind due to losing his star after 3x ankle surgeries.

My grandparents visited Italy when I was a kid and brought back AC Milan swag the three Dutch legends they had. I was probably 12 or so. Loves them ever since