Soccer/Football Thread Part 3

[Appleyard]

I view any and all sports as businesses it’s how my brain works.

UEFA and FIFA are also unbelievably corrupt. They just don’t want to lose money with these statements about the Champions League, World Cup, etc with bans. They don’t actually care about the spirit of the game.

EDIT: There is a major difference between how North Americans and Europeans view their sports.

They are both corrupt. At least major "arms" of them are. (they also do some good work, mainly on the foundation side of things, which is very seperate) have spoken to several of the people involved in that work and also kind of worked alongside them at times and outside of the top level some good work. Even if core is rotten.

BUT at same time football is not just just 15 teams. It is thousands of teams. The pyramid structure across Europe is the lifeblood of so many towns. And UEFA, national bodies etc help ensure that smaller teams can keep running, keep developing players, keep a towns identity, culture etc.

The talk about "trickle down" from those clubs is just comedy. Like... how are Oldham Athletic or Rochdale Town going to benefit from the Super League? Yeh... once every 10 years they get £500,000 from a bigger club for a Micah Richards or Danny Philliskirk... that fee might be £750,000 if Super League goes ahead... but way less money from other sources as a result. How is women's football going to benefit?


Imagine if the Original Six engineered it so they were guaranteed play-offs every year no matter where they finished? And then refused to put money in to pot, and did not have to have a salary cap when everyone else did? And refused to participate in draft and signed all players from their areas instead? The NHL would be a joke. And ofc the NHL does not directly help support ~5 other professional leagues in a pyramid, or women's and disabled hockey.

Most people in Europe dont grow up dreaming of playing for Real Madrid... or Liverpool... or in a World Cup. They grow up wanting to wear a Carlisle United shirt... or a Estrella da Amadora shirt.

In the UK our 2nd tier is almost as well attended as top tier. (14 million vs 11 million a year)

Our FOURTH tier gets 2.5 million a year attending. Like 6000 people per team every week. That is more popular than the AHL.

And with Super League? A lot of the money is diverted away from those hundreds of clubs and towns to make the rich richer.


Germany has arguably the most successful club structure in Europe in terms of finances, are one of best leagues in world (with several of the biggest clubs), and is cheapest major league to attend, with best atmospheres … they have in effect fan ownership. We need to go more towards that instead of toward how US do things.

 

[Starat327]

They are both corrupt. At least major "arms" of them are. (they also do some good work, mainly on the foundation side of things, which is very seperate) have spoken to several of the people involved in that work and also kind of worked alongside them at times and outside of the top level some good work. Even if core is rotten.

BUT at same time football is not just just 15 teams. It is thousands of teams. The pyramid structure across Europe is the lifeblood of so many towns. And UEFA, national bodies etc help ensure that smaller teams can keep running, keep developing players, keep a towns identity, culture etc.

The talk about "trickle down" from those clubs is just comedy. Like... how are Oldham Athletic or Rochdale Town going to benefit from the Super League? Yeh... once every 10 years they get £500,000 from a bigger club for a Micah Richards or Danny Philliskirk... that fee might be £750,000 if Super League goes ahead... but way less money from other sources as a result. How is women's football going to benefit?


Imagine if the Original Six engineered it so they were guaranteed play-offs every year no matter where they finished? And then refused to put money in to pot, and did not have to have a salary cap when everyone else did? And refused to participate in draft and signed all players from their areas instead? The NHL would be a joke. And ofc the NHL does not directly help support ~5 other professional leagues in a pyramid, or women's and disabled hockey.

Most people in Europe dont grow up dreaming of playing for Real Madrid... or Liverpool... or in a World Cup. They grow up wanting to wear a Carlisle United shirt... or a Estrella da Amadora shirt.

In the UK our 2nd tier is almost as well attended as top tier. (14 million vs 11 million a year)

Our FOURTH tier gets 2.5 million a year attending. Like 6000 people per team every week. That is more popular than the AHL.

And with Super League? A lot of the money is diverted away from those hundreds of clubs and towns to make the rich richer.


Germany has arguably the most successful club structure in Europe in terms of finances, are one of best leagues in world (with several of the biggest clubs), and is cheapest major league to attend, with best atmospheres … they have in effect fan ownership. We need to go more towards that instead of toward how US do things.

Hey, we learned how to take over things and make them our own from you guys over 250 years ago, so lets calm down with the anti-american stuff, alright?


Im kidding, obviously. And agree 100% with the post.

 

[Appleyard]

Hey, we learned how to take over things and make them our own from you guys over 250 years ago, so lets calm down with the anti-american stuff, alright?


Im kidding, obviously. And agree 100% with the post.

I think one of the reasons that Europe and South America just have a stranglehold on football IS that because of how it is set up anyone can play. Basically for free. To a decent level. Without moving city, or state, or country... without crazy fees for travel teams etc.

Yeh, there are sacrifices... but like... having to drive hours every morning even if in a decent sized town (which happens even in Canada for hockey...) to play at a decent level is just unheard of. So everyone can play even if poor as hell, and dont have to go anywhere to be "noticed" or play at a level that helps you improve.

There will be a pro team within ~10 miles of basically every single person in Europe unless they live in the Alps... same with South America. And these clubs develop so many players too.

Look at the current expanded England team and where the players developed:

Premier League clubs:

"Super league":

Arsenal: 2
Chelsea: 3
Liverpool: 2
Manchester City: 2
Manchester United: 5
Tottenham: 2

Non "Super league":

Aston Villa: 1
Leeds: 1
Leicester: 1
Sheffield United: 3
Southampton: 3
West Ham: 1

Championship:

Barnsley: 1
Birmingham: 1
Bournemouth: 1
QPR: 1
Watford: 1

Lower leagues:

Sunderland: 2
Ipswich: 1
Exeter: 1
Carlisle: 1
Rushden & Diamonds: 1

21/37 come from outside the big 6.

If 30 years ago England had gone to a more American system... would we have Jamie Vardy, Ollie Watkins, Tyrone Mings playing international football? Or even pro football? Late bloomers etc... or guys from smaller towns? Or guys from poverty? Would just have youth players wasting away at top teams with no playing time... contracted leagues... less people from marginalised communities with opportunities... no appropriate "level" for guys to develop.


I think it is partially the same reason Sweden and Finland (on smaller scale) produce sooo many insane hockey players given population sizes. There is a level for everyone on development curve given pyramid structure, teams in every town who play at a decent level, and if not a freak at 16 years old? Can still develop in a good league until are 23-24, and some of those guys kick on and go from Div 1 to SHL... or Allsvenskan to NHL... when if talent was more concentrated and less teams? They might simply have to quit at 18-19 as no-where to go...

 

[Jack Straw]

They are both corrupt. At least major "arms" of them are. (they also do some good work, mainly on the foundation side of things, which is very seperate) have spoken to several of the people involved in that work and also kind of worked alongside them at times and outside of the top level some good work. Even if core is rotten.

BUT at same time football is not just just 15 teams. It is thousands of teams. The pyramid structure across Europe is the lifeblood of so many towns. And UEFA, national bodies etc help ensure that smaller teams can keep running, keep developing players, keep a towns identity, culture etc.

The talk about "trickle down" from those clubs is just comedy. Like... how are Oldham Athletic or Rochdale Town going to benefit from the Super League? Yeh... once every 10 years they get £500,000 from a bigger club for a Micah Richards or Danny Philliskirk... that fee might be £750,000 if Super League goes ahead... but way less money from other sources as a result. How is women's football going to benefit?


Imagine if the Original Six engineered it so they were guaranteed play-offs every year no matter where they finished? And then refused to put money in to pot, and did not have to have a salary cap when everyone else did? And refused to participate in draft and signed all players from their areas instead? The NHL would be a joke. And ofc the NHL does not directly help support ~5 other professional leagues in a pyramid, or women's and disabled hockey.

Most people in Europe dont grow up dreaming of playing for Real Madrid... or Liverpool... or in a World Cup. They grow up wanting to wear a Carlisle United shirt... or a Estrella da Amadora shirt.

In the UK our 2nd tier is almost as well attended as top tier. (14 million vs 11 million a year)

Our FOURTH tier gets 2.5 million a year attending. Like 6000 people per team every week. That is more popular than the AHL.

And with Super League? A lot of the money is diverted away from those hundreds of clubs and towns to make the rich richer.


Germany has arguably the most successful club structure in Europe in terms of finances, are one of best leagues in world (with several of the biggest clubs), and is cheapest major league to attend, with best atmospheres … they have in effect fan ownership. We need to go more towards that instead of toward how US do things.

I admittedly know very little about European football outside the Premier League, but I'm wondering if eventually something like the EuroLeague that they have for basketball would work. But with relegation, and no teams from the England, France, or Germany (since those countries seem to be doing ok as is). So this EuroLeague would just become another top tier league in Europe, and the existing national leagues would make up the the pyramid.

And then you come up with some formula for the CL drawing from the PL, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, and the EuroLeague. And if necessary you could allow top teams from the national leagues to qualify.

 

[Appleyard]

I admittedly know very little about European football outside the Premier League, but I'm wondering if eventually something like the EuroLeague that they have for basketball would work. But with relegation, and no teams from the England, France, or Germany (since those countries seem to be doing ok as is). So this EuroLeague would just become another top tier league in Europe, and the existing national leagues would make up the the pyramid.

And then you come up with some formula for the CL drawing from the PL, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, and the EuroLeague. And if necessary you could allow top teams from the national leagues to qualify.

The economics of travel would just be even more difficult for teams outside top tier though. Like if Spain+Italy merged... Las Palmas flying to Northern Italy every other week. That is a small club travelling 2500 miles for a 2nd tier game most likely... or 3rd tier. For games that no-one would care about in Spain OR Italy.

Basketball is a pretty niche sport here and when was local leagues were just so little competition and only a few teams who got good attendances etc. That is not an issue in football... we have 6th tier semi-pro games here with 2500-3000 fans a game.

I think tbh the best solution is simply the big Spanish and Italian teams learn to operate with budgets, and some owners be happy with how much they are bleeding their clubs already... if everyone ran their team like Burnley (small town in Northern England with internal salary caps, very strict budget etc but who are a Premier League presence) there would be no issue.

Juventus, Real and Barca especially are just comical. Spent far more than they can afford and now crying that dont have money... when if had just not gone out and bought everything shiny they saw they would have no issues and still be likely able to compete at highest level and for Champs Leagues.

18 year old kids going away to college need to learn to spend within means or budget... no reason why multi-billion pound businesses with massive income should not have to.

They need to look at teams like Atalanta and Athletico Bilbao. Those teams are in Italy and Spain. They have same conditions as most... and worse conditions than top teams. YET not only do they compete. They compete and make money.

 

[Jack Straw]

The economics of travel would just be even more difficult for teams outside top tier though. Like if Spain+Italy merged... Las Palmas flying to Northern Italy every other week. That is a small club travelling 2500 miles for a 2nd tier game most likely... or 3rd tier. For games that no-one would care about in Spain OR Italy.

Basketball is a pretty niche sport here and when was local leagues were just so little competition and only a few teams who got good attendances etc. That is not an issue in football... we have 6th tier semi-pro games here with 2500-3000 fans a game.

I think tbh the best solution is simply the big Spanish and Italian teams learn to operate with budgets, and some owners be happy with how much they are bleeding their clubs already... if everyone ran their team like Burnley (small town in Northern England with internal salary caps, very strict budget etc but who are a Premier League presence) there would be no issue.

Juventus, Real and Barca especially are just comical. Spent far more than they can afford and now crying that dont have money... when if had just not gone out and bought everything shiny they saw they would have no issues and still be likely able to compete at highest level and for Champs Leagues.

18 year old kids going away to college need to learn to spend within means or budget... no reason why multi-billion pound businesses with massive income should not have to.

They need to look at teams like Atalanta and Athletico Bilbao. Those teams are in Italy and Spain. They have same conditions as most... and worse conditions than top teams. YET not only do they compete. They compete and make money.

The travel would only apply to the "EuroLeague" teams, which presumably would be bigger and better able to afford it. Everything remains the same for the rest of the teams in the existing leagues except for the possibility of promotion to the new top league. And presumably this new league would bring in more revenue which would be shared downward.

Just think of it as creating a European Premier League without Germany, France, and England.

 

[BritainStix]

Barcelona and Real are massively in debt, unlike the premier league clubs who also have huge debt levels, they are only getting worse and I can't see any viable means in which they can pay it.

Both teams are far off the pace that they used to be, so Champions league winnings isn't going to pay the bill anymore.

There's no doubt that United, Real and Barca were the biggest advocates for this ridiculous concept.

I would give so much to have the money sucking glaziers out of my club.

 

[Appleyard]

The travel would only apply to the "EuroLeague" teams, which presumably would be bigger and better able to afford it. Everything remains the same for the rest of the teams in the existing leagues except for the possibility of promotion to the new top league. And presumably this new league would bring in more revenue which would be shared downward.

Just think of it as creating a European Premier League without Germany, France, and England.

Makes more sense! But still some of those smaller teams will be in a top tier if ~20 teams and based on merit. Take a team like Villareal... they are from a town of 50,000 people but a top ~6 team in Spain.

Still I think so many of the games would just have so little interest.

Like... Granada or Real Betis vs say Sassuolo or Verona? Which would 100% be fixtures if say it started next year? By nature you would have less rivalry games and just cant imagine interest outside the top few teams in each vs each other.

Breaking up say... Barca vs Espanyol... Bilbao vs Sociedad... Roma vs Lazio... Genoa vs Sampdoria... on a yearly basis, which would happen. Those fixtures are THE biggest fixtures in calendar for some of those clubs. 150 years of history in them. There are WEEKS of coverage, events, etc leading up to them. We would probably never have an Atalanta vs Brescia derby ever again... which is one of the best in Europe when it happens every few years.

Even Champions League... I think people outside of Europe dont understand that for 90% of fans the domestic league or domestic trophy is a bigger deal. For the clubs involved and the 10% of fans who support a top ~20 team in Europe? Yeh... it matters. But for everyone else it is just something to kill 2 hours mid-week.

Tbh I think the European tournaments should be streamlined anyway. They wont be because money talks over quality and players (there is too much football in a season for most teams right now.) Europa especially even more than already. No-one cares about it really unless a "non top tier" club gets to a final. Teams purposefully losing in a tournament or fielding weakened teams every game is just hilarious.

 

[Appleyard]

I would actually love to see, across European leagues. (though a pipe dream, albeit basically in place in Germany (and part of their success), albeit not as "harsh" as mine would be!)

The number of "home grown" players needed to have an eligible squad increase. Like if you have a 25 man squad have to register? Make it ~12 players who have spent 3+ years at club before age 21 or not a valid selection. Can increase gradually over 3-4 years so not an massive imposition. Not just 4 (with option to avoid it) like it is now.

That would immediately mean that less transfer fee inflation and clubs spending more within means, as well as rewarding clubs doing development work. As teams would not be buying SO many players.

BUT it would need to be in all the major national leagues and not just European tournaments. As otherwise would cause more problems.

It would not be crazy at all... and big teams would be still a similar level but with less spending.

Take Man City, a 25 man squad with all best current players but if HAD to have kept more developed guys.

Foden, Delap, Iheanacho, Schmeichel, Trippier, Mee, Boyata, Denayer, Rekik, Diaz, Adarabioyo, Nmecha... that is 12.

would it really even decrease overall level that much of top teams? I dont think *that* much. And would give more incentive for teams to develop talent, to put money into community, and ensure that players got a chance!

Almost all the big clubs in Europe have ~25+ Academy graduates in last 10 years who are playing in top tiers/are senior internationals.

The fact City let guys like Schmeichel, Trippier, Denayer, Ineanacho walk is just indicative in itself of issues. Those guys are good enough to be in the squad right NOW. Better than some of the players we have. But were for most part never given a chance because were more interested in going out and getting proven names.

 

[1865]

Hopefully this will be a step to more countries going towards the German model and 50+1.

Amazing that German leagues right now are so secure, profitable etc that Bayern and Dortmund give zero shits about a super league... and fan interests come first most of time, tickets are cheap and the quality is damn good. Like after England Germany has the most competative big league top to bottom. The bottom of La Liga, Serie A and Ligue 1 are pretty damn poor.

Boris talked about it in parliament the other day, good to get it into the right sphere. Let's see if the incompetent buffoon can actually get anything pushed through.

 

[Appleyard]

Boris talked about it in parliament the other day, good to get it into the right sphere. Let's see if the incompetent buffoon can actually get anything pushed through.

50+1 AND their homegrown rules phased in would be amazing.

 

[Starat327]

Theres no f***ing way that's a red. Brutal call. I don't care how much this benefits my team, that's f***ing awful.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

Theres no f***ing way that's a red. Brutal call. I don't care how much this benefits my team, that's f***ing awful.

How does VAR confirm that as a red? A similar play happened just seconds afterwards, as well, with no foul called.

That is shameful all around.

 

[Starat327]

How does VAR confirm that as a red? A similar play happened just seconds afterwards, as well, with no foul called.

That is shameful all around.

Yeah, just terrible call all around there. Ultimately, I'm not gonna ask to replay the match or anything, but if you gotta look at this more than 3 or 4 times, it's not clear and obvious - move on.

 

[Starat327]

Happy Demba Ba Day, everyone! Don't let this day 'slip' away from you!

 

[Starat327]

Timo Werner will be the death of me

 

[PDX Flyer]

Timo Werner will be the death of me

Pulisic is controlling the game so far.

as I type goal for Madrid lol

 

[Starat327]

Pulisic is controlling the game so far.

as I type goal for Madrid lol

I hate Benzema but that was a nice goal. Beautiful control.

 

[PDX Flyer]

I hate Benzema but that was a nice goal. Beautiful control.

I agree with everything about this statement.

and Werner is just awful. He misses so many chances. The one in this game was a sitter. How long till Chelsea pulls the plug?

 

[Starat327]

I agree with everything about this statement.

and Werner is just awful. He misses so many chances. The one in this game was a sitter. How long till Chelsea pulls the plug?

I am consistently baffled why we aren't playing someone up top in a natural position. I'm not sure what Tuchel has against Tammy, but against a fairly depleted Real D, he'd probably be fine. He may not run like Werner, but thats why you have Mount and Pulisic on the flanks ( or Havertz I guess, though he appears much slower than the other two with the ball).

But you are right. So many wasted chances from Werner. He should be eclipsing 30 goals in all comps with everything he's had die at his feet. And that's just the 'given' ones like earlier in this game.

 

[BigToe]

Timo Werner will be the death of me

Should have more than one goal from that half. So many empty chances.

 

[Starat327]

Should have more than one goal from that half. So many empty chances.

Timo firing into Courtois is the obvious one. He missed a slightly more difficult cross from Azpi shortly after or before as well. I'd be happy with a 2-2 here, to be honest. I'm infinitely more confident of our ability to keep real down to 1 at home than i am of keeping a clean sheet.

 

[Starat327]

One german with no finish for another.

 

[PDX Flyer]

I am consistently baffled why we aren't playing someone up top in a natural position. I'm not sure what Tuchel has against Tammy, but against a fairly depleted Real D, he'd probably be fine. He may not run like Werner, but thats why you have Mount and Pulisic on the flanks ( or Havertz I guess, though he appears much slower than the other two with the ball).

But you are right. So many wasted chances from Werner. He should be eclipsing 30 goals in all comps with everything he's had die at his feet. And that's just the 'given' ones like earlier in this game.

i know Drogba is a unique example but imagine how many goals he would have in this team coached by Tuchel (sp)?

 

[Fire Tortorella]

Nice win for the Union in Atlanta in the 1st leg of the CCL Quarterfinals. a 3-0 away win should essentially be an automatic win across the two games.