So when will Selänne be clutch?

[canucks4ever]

Marcel Dionne wasn't clutch because he no-showed in the playoffs so frequently, not because his teams never won the Cup. That's why he has a reputation as a bad playoff performer. Dale Hawerchuk played most of his career on crap teams as well, but nobody knocks his playoff record because he played like the star he was in crunch time. Cam Neely is one of the most dominant playoff performers of the last 25 years, and he never won the Cup.

No single player is responsible for not being on a championship team. But they're certainly responsible for their own play.

Marcel Dionne's playoff ppg is the exact same as those two.

It is easier to score in the playoffs if you are on a better team. Frank Mahovlich is the perfect example, with toronto and detriot he averaged .7 ppg, then he comes to montreal and his playoff production doubles in size.

 

[arrbez]

Marcel Dionne's playoff ppg is the exact same as those two.

It is easier to score in the playoffs if you are on a better team. Frank Mahovlich is the perfect example, with toronto and detriot he averaged .7 ppg, then he comes to montreal and his playoff production doubles in size.

This post is a great example of numbers needing context.

Your Mahovlich comparison makes no sense, for any number of reasons:

• Offense obviously took a significant jump after expansion. Mahovlich played his Toronto seasons during the Original Six era, and arrived in Montreal in 1971. You'll notice that his placements in goals and points were higher in Toronto than in Detroit or Montreal.
• He played on great Toronto teams, and won four of his 6 Stanley Cups there.
• Imlach's Leafs of the 1960's were perhaps the most defensive-minded teams of all time.
• The playoffs were 50% longer after expansion. Obviously his point totals will skyrocket playing 20 games instead of 12.

Moving on to the other two:

Dionne's playoff PPG is lower than the other two, despite his regular-season PPG obviously being quite a bit higher, particularly in his prime.

Cam Neely had one offensive no-show in the playoffs, as a 20 year old coming off a 35 point regular season. Cam Neely also has one of the best playoff goals-per-game averages in history, and was an absolutely dominant playoff performer his entire career in Boston. As soon as Cam Neely became a star in the regular season, his playoff performances followed (and then some!)

Dale Hawerchuk did exactly what you'd expect a star player on poor teams to do: play like a star player. Sure, the Jets were going nowhere. But Hawerchuk was a point-per-game or higher in 7 of his 8 seasons there, and only missed the 8th season by 1 point. Keep in mind that Hawerchuk's teams made it past the first round less often than Dionne's Kings, and that Dionne averaged 10-15 points more per season in LA than Hawerchuk did in Winnipeg.

From 1978-1981 Marcel Dionne was the NHL's leading scorer, and trailed only Mike Bossy in goals. In those four consecutive playoff years, he amassed 1 goal and 7 assists in 12 games. Nobody should have expected him to lead the playoffs on a bad team. But a guy who averages 55 goals and 130 points a year should score at more than a 46 point pace. He was perhaps the best offensive player in the game outside of Gretzky, and he had maybe 2 or 3 playoffs where he played at that level.

And that is why Marcel Dionne gets ragged on for his playoff performances.

 

[Seanconn*]

Selanne did have one PPG playoff... 92/93


If Teemu keeps it up this playoffs, and the Ducks win this series, this could very well go down as his best playoff run ever. Too early to tell, but he's easily been the most clutch player for the Ducks this playoffs so far.

 

[canucks4ever]

This post is a great example of numbers needing context.

Your Mahovlich comparison makes no sense, for any number of reasons:

• Offense obviously took a significant jump after expansion. Mahovlich played his Toronto seasons during the Original Six era, and arrived in Montreal in 1971. You'll notice that his placements in goals and points were higher in Toronto than in Detroit or Montreal.
• He played on great Toronto teams, and won four of his 6 Stanley Cups there.
• Imlach's Leafs of the 1960's were perhaps the most defensive-minded teams of all time.
• The playoffs were 50% longer after expansion. Obviously his point totals will skyrocket playing 20 games instead of 12.

Moving on to the other two:

Dionne's playoff PPG is lower than the other two, despite his regular-season PPG obviously being quite a bit higher, particularly in his prime.

Cam Neely had one offensive no-show in the playoffs, as a 20 year old coming off a 35 point regular season. Cam Neely also has one of the best playoff goals-per-game averages in history, and was an absolutely dominant playoff performer his entire career in Boston. As soon as Cam Neely became a star in the regular season, his playoff performances followed (and then some!)

Dale Hawerchuk did exactly what you'd expect a star player on poor teams to do: play like a star player. Sure, the Jets were going nowhere. But Hawerchuk was a point-per-game or higher in 7 of his 8 seasons there, and only missed the 8th season by 1 point. Keep in mind that Hawerchuk's teams made it past the first round less often than Dionne's Kings, and that Dionne averaged 10-15 points more per season in LA than Hawerchuk did in Winnipeg.

From 1978-1981 Marcel Dionne was the NHL's leading scorer, and trailed only Mike Bossy in goals. In those four consecutive playoff years, he amassed 1 goal and 7 assists in 12 games. Nobody should have expected him to lead the playoffs on a bad team. But a guy who averages 55 goals and 130 points a year should score at more than a 46 point pace. He was perhaps the best offensive player in the game outside of Gretzky, and he had maybe 2 or 3 playoffs where he played at that level.

And that is why Marcel Dionne gets ragged on for his playoff performances.

You are just making excuses. All the other top players from the 1960's had far more impressive playoff numbers than mahovlich did. Toronto maple leafs had a defensive minded system, but so did chicago and mahovlich was never a two way player, far from it.

Mahovlich's numbers took a massive nose dive in the playoffs, then he joins tha habs and his ppg doubles. Mahovlich was being outscored by garry ehman, an aging red kelly, duck duff and tim horton during his best years on the maple leafs. In 1962 and 1963 he was a complete non factor. In 1967 he was outscored by jim pappin, then he goes to the habs and plays on thier first line and gets padded playoff stats.

 

[RorschachWJK]

Selanne ppg in 1993: 1.57

This was a very high scoring season, and Vancouver was a good defensive team overall, but Selaanne still did not play exceptionally. It's very nice that Selanne had big games in games 3 and 5, but that just means that he hardly contrbuted anything in the other games, as he wasn't giving Winnipeg anything defensively. Vancouver scoring three goals per game has little to do with Selanne's individual performance.



Selanne ppg in 1997: 1.40

Basically every great player has their line keyed upon, so Selanne isn't getting extra credit for that. Anyway Selanne has a very good series here against a team that is basically Anaheim's equal, although clearly it helps having a linemate who is a top 3 scorer in the NHL and playing against the second worst defensive team in the Western playoffs. Even though this was a good series, Selanne's ppg is still .12 lower than in the regular season.



I'm not blaming Selanne for Anaheim losing, but he himself could have been better. His ppg over the four games is barely over half of his regular season ppg. Sure Detroit had lots of good shutdown players, but during that season Kariya and Seanne were both better players than anyone on Detroit. Anaheim's goaltender getting injured has little to do with Selanne hardly scoring.



Selanne ppg in 1999: 1.43

First off I believe that Kariya got injured near the end of game three, so Selanne only had to play one game without him. Anyway, once again I'm not blaming Selanne for losing, but Selanne does not impress. There is no other way to spin this.

I don't really see the point in this. I already said that Selanne was not a bad playoff performer. The information you provided does not prove that Selanne was a great playoff performer by any stretch, so what is the point? Everyone is aware that Selanne was on relatively bad situations in the playoffs, but his level of play still dropped more than you would expect, especially for a guy playing most of those games with a top 5 forward in Paul Kariya.

I am curious as to why you did not bother looking at Selanne in the post season after the lockout. That is when he really takes a hit in my eyes.



That situation would give Selanne 20 points in 21 games. His regular season ppg over those three seasons was 1.47. Once again, Selanne is not a great playoff performer. If Selanne had been on a better team I am sure he would have put up better numbers, but given the situation he actually was in it is not unreasonable to expect better from a player of his stature.

It's a bit strange to see you clinging to the ppg argument even after all the content and details of the various situations has been exposed. There's no shame in backing off a little bit from your original stance.

 

[JackSlater]

It's a bit strange to see you clinging to the ppg argument even after all the content and details of the various situations has been exposed. There's no shame in backing off a little bit from your original stance.

What are you talking about? The context (I assume you meant context) does not excuse Selanne's playoff performances. I listed some reasons why in the post that you quoted. If you have evidence that Selanne is being unfairly maligned then please bring it forward. I am confident that most impartial posters would not agree with you thus far. It is fairly obvious that the people "clinging" to suspect evidence are the members of the Selanne fanclub. I could not care less about Selanne personally, it just bothers me to see him being overrated in this thread (not massively overrated though I must admit) by people who seem to promote him for nationalistic or possibly other reasons.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I am curious as to why you did not bother looking at Selanne in the post season after the lockout. That is when he really takes a hit in my eyes.

Because he was 35 and out of his prime?

That situation would give Selanne 20 points in 21 games. His regular season ppg over those three seasons was 1.47.

Why must he equal his regular season output in the playoffs? That's analogous to saying that Wayne Gretzky was criminally underperforming in 1984 when he scored .92 points-per-game fewer in the playoffs - and Gretzky was on a good team that went 15-4 instead of 6-15.

20 points in four rounds is good enough to where people should alleviate their suspicions that he couldn't play under pressure, and it should keep him out of Dionne/Thornton territory. It's unfortunate that 21 Games (just south of 40% of which were against the best team in hockey) are all we have from his prime - unless we want to consider the best-on-best Olympics that he led in scoring in 1998 (which would bring him up to 30 Points in 26 Games) - but it's still enough to not be held as such a dark spot on his permanent record from his prime.

He was the same good player; he just didn't get to play enough.

 

[JackSlater]

Because he was 35 and out of his prime?

That was pretty close to Selanne's prime level of play, and considering how little playoff experience he had in the 90s it seems pretty clear that we should consider these playoff performances pretty highly.

Why must he equal his regular season output in the playoffs? That's analogous to saying that Wayne Gretzky was criminally underperforming in 1984 when he scored .92 points-per-game fewer in the playoffs - and Gretzky was on a good team that went 15-4 instead of 6-15.

He doesn't have to equal his regular season ppg. The point is that he still fell quite a bit from that level. You were making it seem as if that stretch proved that Selanne was a very good playoff performer, but I may have misinterpreted.

20 points in four rounds is good enough to where people should alleviate their suspicions that he couldn't play under pressure, and it should keep him out of Dionne/Thornton territory. It's unfortunate that 21 Games (just south of 40% of which were against the best team in hockey) are all we have from his prime - unless we want to consider the best-on-best Olympics that he led in scoring in 1998 (which would bring him up to 30 Points in 26 Games) - but it's still enough to not be held as such a dark spot on his permanent record from his prime.

He was the same good player; he just didn't get to play enough.

I agree that Selanne is no Joe Thornton.

 

[Merya]

Dunno why its so hard for some people to understand. Playoffs hockey is more defensive, and stars are better guarded. So when the team has 1 or 2 stars, its pretty easy to take em out. Put Selänne in mid-late 90s Detroit and he gets a load of more playoff points.
Basically it comes to the question, why was Kurri money in the playoffs, and Selänne was not. I think you can think the answer quite easily.

 

[JackSlater]

Dunno why its so hard for some people to understand. Playoffs hockey is more defensive, and stars are better guarded. So when the team has 1 or 2 stars, its pretty easy to take em out. Put Selänne in mid-late 90s Detroit and he gets a load of more playoff points.
Basically it comes to the question, why was Kurri money in the playoffs, and Selänne was not. I think you can think the answer quite easily.

People are aware that scoring is tougher in that playoffs, but Selanne was still not impressive. In his first stint in Anaheim he had Kariya, a top 5 forward in the NHL, on his line. In he next few years he wasn't great in the regular season or in the playoffs. More damning is that once he was actually on a good team in the playoffs, the Ducks, Selanne still wasn't overly impressive. Obviously Selanne would have scored more points on a great team, but that does not mean he would have played better individually. As far as Kurri goes, his playoff performances are overrated.

 

[Merya]

People are aware that scoring is tougher in that playoffs, but Selanne was still not impressive. In his first stint in Anaheim he had Kariya, a top 5 forward in the NHL, on his line. In he next few years he wasn't great in the regular season or in the playoffs. More damning is that once he was actually on a good team in the playoffs, the Ducks, Selanne still wasn't overly impressive. Obviously Selanne would have scored more points on a great team, but that does not mean he would have played better individually. As far as Kurri goes, his playoff performances are overrated.

Selänne and Kariya were the only threats, playing on same line. It really is pretty easy to shut 2 dudes down.
As for post lockout, he's old. And did his share amongs the youngsters. Sure he wasnt MVP, but he damn well was the MGP, and he did score that goal that basicly clinched the cup.
I think being Finnish kinda hurts playoff performance since Finns have this culture of second places. So far this year he seems more at ease, has 4g in 4 games, and well...Anaheim wouldn't be in the playoffs without him. A soon to be 41 year old dude.
Aside from Gordie Howe, I've never seen so old player play so well.

 

[arrbez]

Selänne and Kariya were the only threats, playing on same line. It really is pretty easy to shut 2 dudes down.

I've never really liked this argument. I mean, were teams not trying to shut them down all regular season too? Same with the "he was old" argument for after the lockout. He may have been 35, but he was a 90+ point forward.

Obviously scoring declines in the playoffs because there aren't any crap teams to beat up on, but I think a player's playoff scoring should be judged against his regular season scoring from that year. And that goes for any player.

Selanne wasn't even bad in the playoffs in question. But he didn't kick it up a notch either.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You are just making excuses. All the other top players from the 1960's had far more impressive playoff numbers than mahovlich did. Toronto maple leafs had a defensive minded system, but so did chicago and mahovlich was never a two way player, far from it.

Mahovlich's numbers took a massive nose dive in the playoffs, then he joins tha habs and his ppg doubles. Mahovlich was being outscored by garry ehman, an aging red kelly, duck duff and tim horton during his best years on the maple leafs. In 1962 and 1963 he was a complete non factor. In 1967 he was outscored by jim pappin, then he goes to the habs and plays on thier first line and gets padded playoff stats.

Comparing Punch Imlach's system in Toronto with the one Chicago used really shows your ignorance about the time period.

 

[Merya]

I've never really liked this argument. I mean, were teams not trying to shut them down all regular season too? Same with the "he was old" argument for after the lockout. He may have been 35, but he was a 90+ point forward.

Obviously scoring declines in the playoffs because there aren't any crap teams to beat up on, but I think a player's playoff scoring should be judged against his regular season scoring from that year. And that goes for any player.

Selanne wasn't even bad in the playoffs in question. But he didn't kick it up a notch either.

Valid in a way yes, but when you have to qualify his lack of playoff brilliance with 90+ points and 35+ years regular season...doesn't that already say how absurd case we're talking about? I still think 80 points in 73 games and better +/- than Henrik Zetterberg in the past regular season is more impressive than a triple overtime game seven winning goal. Consistency>nerves. Best to have both ofc.

 

[heksagon]

Selänne and Kariya were the only threats, playing on same line. It really is pretty easy to shut 2 dudes down.
As for post lockout, he's old. And did his share amongs the youngsters. Sure he wasnt MVP, but he damn well was the MGP, and he did score that goal that basicly clinched the cup.
I think being Finnish kinda hurts playoff performance since Finns have this culture of second places. So far this year he seems more at ease, has 4g in 4 games, and well...Anaheim wouldn't be in the playoffs without him. A soon to be 41 year old dude.
Aside from Gordie Howe, I've never seen so old player play so well.

5 goals actually. Leads the playoffs in goals!

 

[JackSlater]

I've never really liked this argument. I mean, were teams not trying to shut them down all regular season too? Same with the "he was old" argument for after the lockout. He may have been 35, but he was a 90+ point forward.

Obviously scoring declines in the playoffs because there aren't any crap teams to beat up on, but I think a player's playoff scoring should be judged against his regular season scoring from that year. And that goes for any player.

Selanne wasn't even bad in the playoffs in question. But he didn't kick it up a notch either.

This is a post I can agree with.

Valid in a way yes, but when you have to qualify his lack of playoff brilliance with 90+ points and 35+ years regular season...doesn't that already say how absurd case we're talking about? I still think 80 points in 73 games and better +/- than Henrik Zetterberg in the past regular season is more impressive than a triple overtime game seven winning goal. Consistency>nerves. Best to have both ofc.

I agree with what you are saying here, but the topic of this thread is Selanne's clutch play, which clearly means that playoffs mut be considered to a great degree.

 

[canucks4ever]

Comparing Punch Imlach's system in Toronto with the one Chicago used really shows your ignorance about the time period.

Yeah, then why did it not prevent tim horton, dave keon and red kelly from having great playoff performances? Why was frank mahovlich always outscored by players like ehman and armstrong in the playoffs? You got an excuse for that too? Was mahovlich not playing under that defensive system in the regular season?

 

[canucks4ever]

Selänne and Kariya were the only threats, playing on same line. It really is pretty easy to shut 2 dudes down.
As for post lockout, he's old. And did his share amongs the youngsters. Sure he wasnt MVP, but he damn well was the MGP, and he did score that goal that basicly clinched the cup.
I think being Finnish kinda hurts playoff performance since Finns have this culture of second places. So far this year he seems more at ease, has 4g in 4 games, and well...Anaheim wouldn't be in the playoffs without him. A soon to be 41 year old dude.
Aside from Gordie Howe, I've never seen so old player play so well.

Adam Oates spent his career playing on 1 line teams and his playoff resume is much better than selanne's.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Adam Oates spent his career playing on 1 line teams and his playoff resume is much better than selanne's.

Is that really a fair comp?

Oates is a great player but he was a setup guy who played with a couple of good finishers in Hull and Neely and also on a strong Detroit team.

"Clutch" usually refers to scoring goals and not setting them up, in that regard Selanne was better or more "clutch" than Oates in the playoffs.

 

[canucks4ever]

Is that really a fair comp?

Oates is a great player but he was a setup guy who played with a couple of good finishers in Hull and Neely and also on a strong Detroit team.

"Clutch" usually refers to scoring goals and not setting them up, in that regard Selanne was better or more "clutch" than Oates in the playoffs.

This is the worst logic i've ever seen. By your method, gartner and robitaille are more clutch than forsberg.

LOL at detriot being a strong team when oates was there, thats a good laugh.

 

[Hardyvan123]

This is the worst logic i've ever seen. By your method, gartner and robitaille are more clutch than forsberg.

LOL at detriot being a strong team when oates was there, thats a good laugh.

Okay so Detroit only finished 1st in their division 2 of the 3 years and points flowed more freely in the regular and playoffs back in his 3 years in Detroit.

Let me clarify that the "clutch" definition was an observation, I know that players do a lot more than score goals but it is generally accepted that it is easier to get an assist than to score a goal. Not in each and every case but if you average it out there is a difference.

The term "clutch" is usually referred to goal scorers but that's just my observation on it.

Also Oates, and Robitalle both scored much better before the clutch and grab era and in a time when it was much easier to score.

Gartner was never as good as Selanne and in an easier time to score but don't let the facts get in the way of your slamming my argument.

Forsberg also scored 64 goals in 151 playoff games this is how others scored from 95-08 Forsberg's playing time in the playoffs.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=goals

Look he is 2nd and in per game he ends up 12th.

Luc is 11th and 38th in his "era"
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=goals

Gartner no doubt is lower on both counts.

Not sure what your point was but there it is.

 

[canucks4ever]

Okay so Detroit only finished 1st in their division 2 of the 3 years and points flowed more freely in the regular and playoffs back in his 3 years in Detroit.

Let me clarify that the "clutch" definition was an observation, I know that players do a lot more than score goals but it is generally accepted that it is easier to get an assist than to score a goal. Not in each and every case but if you average it out there is a difference.

The term "clutch" is usually referred to goal scorers but that's just my observation on it.

Also Oates, and Robitalle both scored much better before the clutch and grab era and in a time when it was much easier to score.

Gartner was never as good as Selanne and in an easier time to score but don't let the facts get in the way of your slamming my argument.

Forsberg also scored 64 goals in 151 playoff games this is how others scored from 95-08 Forsberg's playing time in the playoffs.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=goals

Look he is 2nd and in per game he ends up 12th.

Luc is 11th and 38th in his "era"
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=goals

Gartner no doubt is lower on both counts.

Not sure what your point was but there it is.

Detriot finished first in thier division because they played in a crappy division, they were hardly a threat to the top teams, lol.

Being an elite playmaker requires the same amount of skill as being a goal scorer. It doesnt matter how high scoring was in oates's era, hes a much better playoff performer than selanne ever was.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Defensive Play

Dunno why its so hard for some people to understand. Playoffs hockey is more defensive, and stars are better guarded. So when the team has 1 or 2 stars, its pretty easy to take em out. Put Selänne in mid-late 90s Detroit and he gets a load of more playoff points.
Basically it comes to the question, why was Kurri money in the playoffs, and Selänne was not. I think you can think the answer quite easily.

Kurri was more effective in the playoffs because he could generate offense with his strong defensive play. Selanne while much more effective defensively since putting his injuries and car crash behind him rarely gets the turnaround goals or points.

Generating offense from solid defense is a concept almost as old as hockey.

Points made and now to the major factor that influenced Selanne's performance in the NHL an, especially in the playoffs.Until the 2005-06 season Teemu Selanne played for very weak to low average coaches. His game improved drastically with Randy Carlyle during the 2005-06 season.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Kurri was more effective in the playoffs because he could generate offense with his strong defensive play. Selanne while much more effective defensively since putting his injuries and car crash behind him rarely gets the turnaround goals or points.

Generating offense from solid defense is a concept almost as old as hockey.

Points made and now to the major factor that influenced Selanne's performance in the NHL an, especially in the playoffs.Until the 2005-06 season Teemu Selanne played for very weak to low average coaches. His game improved drastically with Randy Carlyle during the 2005-06 season.

As for Kurri's success you forgot something called Wayne Gretzky.

Kurri was great but playing with the best player of all time can only help ask Bernie Nicholls.

 

[Slapshooter]

Selanne had 6 goals in 6 playoff games this year. His team did not advance, but impressive feat nevertheless, especially for a player who turns 41 in a few months.

While Selanne will not be remembered firstly as a clutch player, any choker label he may had is gone. His career goals per playoff games have actually always been decent at least.

What if he keeps coming back next year? Gordie Howe hat trick would be cool for a player with Selannes not so tough reputation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI1lvMzjESo