So what now?

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Faltorvo

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Feb 18, 2008
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when you consider what it costs to get Ceci over Zee, I'd keep Zee. Hainsey and Gards could have been retained for reasonable dollars and term. Acquiring Barrie was a tire fire; Muzzin trade was good short term, but lets wait and see how that 1st pick and Grundstrom turn out before we say that was a win. Dubas gets a F for attempting to fix the D with these players supplimented with AHL level help.
Muzz is the ONLY good/fair move dubas has made

i will wait on how he fixes the cap, before i make a final call on the JT pick up

i was 100% behind getting JT,,, BUT i had no idea at all,,at all ,,,,how TERRIBLY KD would blow the 3 RFA deals.
 
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rumman

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Sep 10, 2008
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Muzz is the ONLY good/fair move dubas has made

i will to wait on how he fixes the cap before i make a final call on the JT pick up

i was 100% behind getting JT,,, BUT i had no idea at all,,at all ,,,,how TERRIBLY KD would blow the 3 RFA deals.
this is soap already, but even though all JT cost was dollars, the last thing the leafs needed was another C. They had more pressing needs.............
 

Faltorvo

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Feb 18, 2008
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look it up, I liked/like Hainsey, he's cheap for what he brings.

Zee was overpaid, but plenty of that found on the Leafs.

Gards had his warts, but wasn't the defensive antichrist he was made out to be.

Like I've stated 3 times in this conversation, none of said players cost you anything but dollars.......no assets, no picks. That is my point...............................
would i rather have Z and Gards for 8.5m combined then Kerf/AJ for 6.9M
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
23,830
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Richmond Hill, ON
Jimmy Rutherford does not take losing lightly. Called out his troops yesterday and today:

The Pittsburgh Penguins' qualifying round loss to the Montreal Canadiens cost assistant coaches Sergei Gonchar, Jacques Martin and Mark Recchi their jobs.
 

Morbo

The Annihilator
Jan 14, 2003
27,100
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Toronto
You can do this without dealing any of the top 4 guys, even Nylander whom the media is beating their war drums again on. But if you aren't going to do that, you will have to make more major changes to the rest of the squad to support that core. The Leafs have to get a lot better at winning the close games they're going to encounter in the playoffs, and holding the leads they do manage to earn. Accepting that their high powered guys aren't going to score all over the place and wear down playoff calibre defences, they need to change the parts of the team they're willing to change -- the goaltending(we're assuming), bottom 6 and least half the defence -- to compensate.

first, Freddy has to go. he shouldn't be hard to get rid of with 1 year left. Sign Lehner. or make a deal with somebody. but we can't go on with a player in that important of a position who can't do the job in important games. If you keep him, you are running the very real risk that you could do a ton of shit right with the rest of the team, and it all goes down the drain with one Andersen softie. That cannot happen.

On defence, there should be plenty of options. Petro may not be realistic, but they can certainly find two decent to solid top 4 dmen somewhere. Muzzin/Rielly with two legit replacements for Ceci and Barrie is certainly a solid enough top 4. Dermott and Holl, with Sandin/Liljegren challenging them for a spot, is similarly solid enough for pair 3 duty compared to what most teams have.

Right now our 3rd and 4th lines don't really serve a defined role. they don't score a lot, they don't hurt people, and they're not a strong defensive unit either. other than Clifford it's a bunch more of what we have on the top two lines for the most part. small pass first offensive types. Dubas needs to go back to the drawing board with the lower half of the team, making it much more complimentary to the guys we're committed to most capwise.

So next you replace your neither-fish-nor-fowl 3rd line(~$10m), doable with any of the 3 of Kappy/Kerf/AJ because they're on decent contracts with a decent skill level and could be a good fit on a different team. This is your major opportunity to inject some defensive ability and discipline that we lack in the forward group. Robertson is one solid candidate. while small, he will get stronger, is a natural goalscorer, and plays with the type of jam and effort we need. he also looks like a guy we can mold into a good defensive player...unlike several other guys, the will to do so appears to be there with this kid. But this line needs to do much more for us than it has been in an overall sense.

next is the fourth line. I think at this point it's obvious Gauthier can't help at this level, and honestly if Keefe won't play him he's done here. so we are once again lacking a capable 4th line centre/effective 4th line. someone with speed and defensive ability to check and control the middle of the ice should be gettable on the free agent market or in a non-major trade. or we try Brooks. Spezza wasn't bad, but I think some younger quicker legs will serve us better. Clifford was ok, but he doesn't make enough of a difference on the 4th line that I would give up a 2nd to keep him. Engvall to me really tailed off in the NHL after a promising start. He'll be fighting for his life for a roster spot this winter, methinks.
 

Faltorvo

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Feb 18, 2008
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I agree that it's probably going to be a reality that the Tavares signing ends up being the thing that hurts this team the most in it's quest for a cup. It just wasn't the right time to sign a free agent who would become by far the oldest member of the core, but at the same time, I don't see how you can pass up the opportunity to sign a 1C who's offering to take lower then his market value (13m offered by 2 teams) to come here, all without giving up any assets at all.

I trust Dubas to make the right moves. Without going into the contracts on RFAs, the vast majority of what he's done to date has been clearing out the mess from the previous GMs. The Kadri trade obviously didn't work out either in hindsight, but I think on paper it was more then fine when it was made, especially when you consider that the decision to move Kadri was probably one made by the entire management staff after his conduct in 2 playoff series.
the core??? the core is rielly/Jt/Matty/Andy /Muzz
 

Faltorvo

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Feb 18, 2008
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Yeah that's the thing, Tavares is one of those rare opportunities that I just don't think any team could ever turn down. It gave us the 2nd or 3rd best 1A/1B center combo in the league behind the Pens and Oilers, and we didn't have to tank or give up any assets to do so. On top of this, Tavares was relativity young and isn't going to be very old when the contracts over. The issue here, is that the Leafs had not yet accumulated the depth required through the draft to fill out the roster and it pushed us into an immediate "win now" scenario that we can't catch up with because we didn't have that extra 1-2 years of depth acquisitions before our core grew to the median age of 23/24.

For Kadri, I don't think you can even ask for a better trade on paper. You got a 3C that hypothetically was scoring at a slightly lower clip then Kadri himself, and a #3 defender that can fill out the roster while your younger D take a step forward in development. In reality, Barrie had an awful season and didn't bring much, you didn't get the steps forward you'd hope from guys like Dermott and Kerfoot shot lower then his career s% and had didn't bring much else to the lineup.
ummmm wut??? kerfoot has career averaged JUST 26 est points per season and he was padding that by 16/17 PPs on a stacked #1 pp with Mckin and gang
 

Faltorvo

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Feb 18, 2008
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Jesus do you even realize how ridiculous this sounds?

People aren’t saying emulate Columbus exactly. They’re anemic offensively. We need a strong blend.
i have watched every team in these POs/play ins

our team is 12 ply Charmin soft and no one is even close to us in that department
 

Trapper

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Nov 21, 2013
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this is soap already, but even though all JT cost was dollars, the last thing the leafs needed was another C. They had more pressing needs.............
They had the assets after signing JT to address those needs Nylander/Kadri/Marner. Now one asset is gone that didn’t address a need at all.
 
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frizzer1

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Oct 19, 2013
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this is soap already, but even though all JT cost was dollars, the last thing the leafs needed was another C. They had more pressing needs.............
JT may only have cost dollars but those dollars messed up the cap situation.
With that money they could have afforded a solid 2nd line centre and a 2 or 3 dman.

Whether they could have obtained them or not we don't know.
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
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Ya know,,it has taken me a few days to suss this out but it's time for shanny to go

It was his screw up picking dubass over Lou and his along with dubass to fire Babcock
I have 0 doubt that shanny had to thump up those 3 RFA deals and maybe even the Kadri/marleau trades.

soo many people crying for babcocks head after last PO and here we are Keefe does worse then that and it's almost crickets on that front.Interesting
 

frizzer1

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Oct 19, 2013
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They had the assets after signing JT to address those needs Nylander/Kadri/Marner. Now one asset is gone that didn’t address a need at all.

Yep.
You have to believe that Kadri could have brought them a solid dman..
Terrible trade.
 

Nizdizzle

Offseason Is The Worst Season
Jul 7, 2007
13,861
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Figured I'd post my $0.02 about the Leafs this season in this thread, as it seems as good as any.

I guess I'm not as upset at the Leafs exit this year as many are this year (and we're all been in previous years). I think a big takeaway was the Leafs played fairly solid defensively for most of the 5 games, with the game-3 meltdown being the exception. Leafs dictated the pace almost the entire time, and generated a good amount of scoring chances. We didn't score much at all. Does anyone think that not being able to score is a problem for this team going forward? I really don't. I think if the Leafs can play next season like they did during this play-in series, they are a much more dangerous team than anything we saw during the regular season. I don't like making excuses for the team and writing it off as bad luck, but I really enjoyed the Leafs play this series except for a few players in the bottom-6 and Ceci.

ROSTER
Like most people here, I think some changes are needed however.
- Obviously, we need to address the RD holes we have, preferably with players in the mold of Muzzin. Players that can hold their own in the Leafs end and make a pass every now and then. Really don't require much more than that and I think there are players who can fill that role available by trade or UFA.
- I would like the Leafs to transition the 3rd OR 4th line to a heavier line than we're ran with in recent years. Move on from Johnson and/or Kapanen and get some heavy wingers who can punish the other team physically. Ideally I'd like the 3rd/4th lines next season to be 2 heavy wingers, Robertson, Spezza, Kerfoot, and whoever plays best in camp. Mix them around to whatever sticks best.
- I really liked Dermott this year (not been a big fan of his potential), but I think the Leafs need to move on from him in the offseason to give Sandin a role with the big club.
- Leafs will need to be looking at the Andersen situation soon. I think Andersen is a fine goalie for the team right now. Not many better options for what we're paying him, but I think after next year unless he doesn't ask for a raise Leafs will need to move on, as we can't afford big money in a goaltender. I have no idea where the next goaltender comes from however, maybe a trade return for Johnsson/Kap/Dermott?

COACHING STAFF
I think Keefe did pretty much everything he needed to this year/series for me to still have confidence in him. Minor nitpicks like didn't take a timeout here or there, but I think the team played better under him. The Leafs need to make major changes to their special teams strategy/coaching. There is no reason for a team with the Leafs personnel not to be one of the deadliest special teams in the league. The puck movement is predictable, and they are way to easy to keep the perimeter.

THE BIG-4
Another playoffs where some of the big-4 players look disinterested and not fully engaged. In my opinion, the best fix for this is to bring in a real veteran leader who will call guys out for not buying in. Personally, I would love if the Leafs could bring Joe Thornton in for a year or two because he is a locker room presence I could see really making a difference. Not sure if the interest is there on his end, and if would probably mean Spezza is the 13th forward if he was also brought back.

TL;DR - I don't think the Leafs are as bad off as some of the posts I've read from our fanbase recently. Take a breath and come off the ledge.
 
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BrannigansLaw

HFBoards Sponsor
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Sep 3, 2006
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Maple Leafs off-season. How bad did I fail?

Step 1: Trade 1

To Det: Marner

To Tor: Hronek, Zadina, Helm, 2021 2nd round pick


Step 2: Trade 2

To NJ: Johnson, 2021 3rd round pick

To Tor: Miles Wood


Step 3: Free agency: sign Chris Tanev 3 years X $6M

Nylander - Matthews - Hymen
Mikheyev - Tavares - Zadina
Robertson - Kerfoot - Wood
Kapanen - Spezza - Helm

Rielly - Tanev
Muzzin - Hronek
Sandin - Holl/Dermott

Anderson

That first trade is absolutely horrendous. Leafs wouldn’t be interested in a package for Marner I would hope. Quantity for quality trades rarely ever work in the quantity favor. It would have to be 1 for 1 for someone like Werenski.

I would do the second trade though.
 

seanlinden

Registered User
Apr 28, 2009
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Yeah that's the thing, Tavares is one of those rare opportunities that I just don't think any team could ever turn down. It gave us the 2nd or 3rd best 1A/1B center combo in the league behind the Pens and Oilers, and we didn't have to tank or give up any assets to do so. On top of this, Tavares was relativity young and isn't going to be very old when the contracts over. The issue here, is that the Leafs had not yet accumulated the depth required through the draft to fill out the roster and it pushed us into an immediate "win now" scenario that we can't catch up with because we didn't have that extra 1-2 years of depth acquisitions before our core grew to the median age of 23/24.

For Kadri, I don't think you can even ask for a better trade on paper. You got a 3C that hypothetically was scoring at a slightly lower clip then Kadri himself, and a #3 defender that can fill out the roster while your younger D take a step forward in development. In reality, Barrie had an awful season and didn't bring much, you didn't get the steps forward you'd hope from guys like Dermott and Kerfoot shot lower then his career s% and had didn't bring much else to the lineup.

Honestly, that's not even the issue.

The real issue is what it did for salary expecations, notably not having Matthews and Marner locked up to long term deals, and the lack of fortitude in dealing with Nylander's contract.

Those "big 3" (Nylander, Matthews, Marner) are overpaid by $3-5m. Put that towards a defenceman, shuffle some deck chairs on the 3rd line, and this team would be a lot better built for the playoffs than it currently is.
 

DueDiligence

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Nov 16, 2013
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Salary distribution over the contract is irrelevant. Their cap hits are not the highest in cap hit or cap hit percentage
The above was your answer to a comment I made to you:
So you deny Marner and Matthews are the highest paid young players in the game? They, along with JT, rank 1,2 and 3 in cash payouts this past year.
However you conveniently left off the part of my overall comment ( which you seem to do quite often to people so you don't have to answer the hard questions)
Her's the whole comment I made:
So you deny Marner and Matthews are the highest paid young players in the game? They, along with JT, rank 1,2 and 3 in cash payouts this past year. ( and are in the top 7 in cap hit)
Matthews is #2 in the league in cap hit and Marner #7.All players in the top 10 in cap hit , other than Connor McDavid,are 27 years old and over.
So tell me again how you can claim their cap hits are not the highest in cap hit????
 

Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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The above was your answer to a comment I made to you:
Yes, your original statement was that they were given the biggest contracts. Then when you saw you were wrong, it switched to salary in one year, despite salary distribution being irrelevant.
which you seem to do quite often to people so you don't have to answer the hard questions
I have not avoided any "hard questions".
Matthews is #2 in the league in cap hit and Marner #7.All players in the top 10 in cap hit , other than Connor McDavid,are 27 years old and over.
So tell me again how you can claim their cap hits are not the highest in cap hit????
Matthews is 3rd, and you just answered your own question. McDavid has a higher cap hit, thus they are not the highest. There are also other players that got higher cap hit percentages, which is really the only way you can accurately compare contracts.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
78,703
53,206
The way the Leafs self-identify as a supremely talented group is a bit too conceited for my liking. It's not like the rest of the league consists of burner teams that have no talent.

Plenty of veteran teams have high end talent but are also combining it with other ingredients like Washington, Tampa and Vegas. Plenty of good young teams powered by good young cores like Colorado, Philadelphia, Carolina and even Vancouver are making progress as playoff teams, some leapfrogging past Toronto as the hot young team in the league. Plenty of talented cores like Edmonton and Winnipeg chronically underachieve.

Believing in your own talent means nothing when you don't back it up with all that blue collar Mike Babcock stuff.
 
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IPS

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
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Yeah that's the thing, Tavares is one of those rare opportunities that I just don't think any team could ever turn down. It gave us the 2nd or 3rd best 1A/1B center combo in the league behind the Pens and Oilers, and we didn't have to tank or give up any assets to do so. On top of this, Tavares was relativity young and isn't going to be very old when the contracts over. The issue here, is that the Leafs had not yet accumulated the depth required through the draft to fill out the roster and it pushed us into an immediate "win now" scenario that we can't catch up with because we didn't have that extra 1-2 years of depth acquisitions before our core grew to the median age of 23/24.

If we didn't acquire enough depth then why the hell are we paying a 3rd line a collective $10M?? Bruins are paying way less for their 3rd line which is drastically superior to the one we're running.

Nothing about our lineup adds up.
 
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