So what now?

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TheGoldenJet

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Apr 2, 2008
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It was a best of 5, not even a legitimate series. I don't know how anyone could watch that series and think that the Leaf's were not at least a coin-flip odds. We were the better team, lost a key player earlier on and couldn't get it done. Make the series longer and the odds just get better for them.

Not trying to give dumb excuses, because this team is running out of time to actually show up but I'd prefer we don't pull a David Clarkson era-esk move here because of a best of 5 series after a 4+ month hockey break during a global pandemic.

I see what you’re saying, but the fact remains that the Leafs were bounced by the 9th placed team in the East this year. They are a long way off from being a contender.

The team has some fantastic pieces, but the Tavares signing and rushing the rebuild was a mistake, as was Dubas’ mishandling of the contract negotiations.

Going forward, they need to take a good look at the roster. Anderson likely is not good enough to be the starter going forward. The team needs a few tough players who can play. Moving Tavares would solve many problems, but such a move would take a good GM to facilitate, and Doobler has shown he is not the man for the job.

They have some pieces like Sandin they could package for roster upgrades, but I don’t trust the current GM to make those moves.
 
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Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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Of course it doesn't and I've never said it does
Then your previous response to me makes no sense.
I know you desperately want to blame Andersen, I just don't understand why that is.
Stop making things up and misrepresenting what I say. I haven't "blamed Andersen" for the series loss. You just want to completely avoid that he was outplayed by the opposing goalie - again.
You were talking about Aho long before I said a word about him.
I was responding to somebody else bringing him up before you jumped in and added absolutely nothing.
I know you love cherry picking
Nothing about that is cherry picked. You asked why, and I answered, and when you didn't get the answer you wanted, you dismiss, deflect, complain, and attack me. like you have in every single one of our conversations in the last week.
you're incredibly naive (or willfully ignorant) if you think that stats are all you need for player evaluation.
Yeah, why don't we ask what Gary thinks, right? That's all that matters? Screw everybody else's opinion, and you know, actual facts, because Gary has a personal opinion, supported by nothing.
The fact that Aho has outplayed Marner in the playoffs
That's not a fact.
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
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Thanks, forgot about that. Wasn’t that the first year of the cap and they moved him to be cap compliant?
Edit - Second year, he had signed Almo and Malakhov to push them against the cap and had to dump both the next summer
 
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Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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Then your previous response to me makes no sense.

Stop making things up and misrepresenting what I say. I haven't "blamed Andersen" for the series loss. You just want to completely avoid that he was outplayed by the opposing goalie - again.

I was responding to somebody else bringing him up before you jumped in and added absolutely nothing.

Nothing about that is cherry picked. You asked why, and I answered, and when you didn't get the answer you wanted, you dismiss, deflect, complain, and attack me. like you have in every single one of our conversations in the last week.

Yeah, why don't we ask what Gary thinks, right? That's all that matters? Screw everybody else's opinion, and you know, actual facts, because Gary has a personal opinion, supported by nothing.

That's not a fact.

You seem to have all the time in the world to edit posts, break them up into pieces etc., why are you ignoring the one question I asked. Did you think I wouldn't notice?

You said you critizice Dubas when it's deserved, I said I've never seen you do that but here's your chance to prove you're not lying:

What are things that Dubas has done that deserve to be criticized?
 

Durrr

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Sep 11, 2012
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I see what you’re saying, but the fact remains that the Leafs were bounced by the 9th placed team in the East this year. They are a long way off from being a contender.

The team has some fantastic pieces, but the Tavares signing and rushing the rebuild was a mistake, as was Dubas’ mishandling of the contract negotiations.

Going forward, they need to take a good look at the roster. Anderson likely is not good enough to be the starter going forward. The team needs a few tough players who can play. Moving Tavares would solve many problems, but such a move would take a good GM to facilitate, and Doobler has shown he is not the man for the job.

They have some pieces like Sandin they could package for roster upgrades, but I don’t trust the current GM to make those moves.

I agree that it's probably going to be a reality that the Tavares signing ends up being the thing that hurts this team the most in it's quest for a cup. It just wasn't the right time to sign a free agent who would become by far the oldest member of the core, but at the same time, I don't see how you can pass up the opportunity to sign a 1C who's offering to take lower then his market value (13m offered by 2 teams) to come here, all without giving up any assets at all.

I trust Dubas to make the right moves. Without going into the contracts on RFAs, the vast majority of what he's done to date has been clearing out the mess from the previous GMs. The Kadri trade obviously didn't work out either in hindsight, but I think on paper it was more then fine when it was made, especially when you consider that the decision to move Kadri was probably one made by the entire management staff after his conduct in 2 playoff series.
 
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DueDiligence

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Nov 16, 2013
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I wonder how many realize how far Gardiner has fallen and that he's now a 4m+ healthy scratch for Carolina.
Carolina's defense core is far better than the Leafs so I can see where he would be lower on their depth chart. I am sure the Leafs would rather have had him this year than Cody Ceci.
Oh and he's playing today so stop with the false narrative.
 
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Gary Nylund

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I agree that it's probably going to be a reality that the Tavares signing ends up being the thing that hurts this team the most in it's quest for a cup. It just wasn't the right time to sign a free agent who would become by far the oldest member of the core, but at the same time, I don't see how you can pass up the opportunity to sign a 1C who's offering to take lower then his market value (13m offered by 2 teams) to come here, all without giving up any assets at all.

I trust Dubas to make the right moves. Without going into the contracts on RFAs, the vast majority of what he's done to date has been clearing out the mess from the previous GMs. The Kadri trade obviously didn't work out either in hindsight, but I think on paper it was more then fine when it was made, especially when you consider that the decision to move Kadri was probably one made by the entire management staff after his conduct in 2 playoff series.

Nice post. I agree with everything and while I get why some people think Tavares was a mistake and there's something to what they say, I just don't see how I could ever call that a mistake. This place was 99% thrilled when it happened and there was good reason for that. I also thought he was one of our best players in the playoffs. Everything you said about Kadri is spot on as well IMO.
 

seanlinden

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Apr 28, 2009
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You know if this wasn't the same excuse for the past 5 times we lost in the first round I would believe you, but enough of this "coin flip, could've went either way" talk..

it was "Washington was too good" or "we always have to face Boston" and now we got CBJ and still couldn't pass a team in a playoffs.. it's clear now that we aren't a playoff type of team.. and the proof from the past 5 years Trumps any and all other excuses... Soft possession hockey doesn't get you through the playoffs.. teams will adjust and find ways to shut you down like all the other years with this team.. it's clear you need to mix the possession with gritty dirty area goals and consistently wear them down game after game to implement your strategy... This team has a bunch of rich kids playing soft hockey and rely on lesser players to carry the grit while they take the most ice time... Enough excuses already.. all of them have been done and over with.. even the "we don't give our players icetime and Babs plays the 4th line 2minutes left".. you literally had Matthews -tavares- Marner loaded on the top line for almost all of game 5 and still couldn't come up with a goal.

No more excuses.. change the Strat and play with actual grit and heart in the playoffs!! Do what you do in the regular season to stay healthy, but come playoffs, pull up your boot straps and finish your damn CHECKS.

This.

After Tampa (who are structured very similar to us) got swept by the Jackets, did they go out and do nothing? No, they went out and overpaid for guys like Pat Maroon, Blake Coleman, Barclay Goodrow, and Zach Bogosian to try and make their team tougher to play against.

Much was said about how the Leafs "depth didn't show up" and that was the reason for the loss, and they're not wrong.... but the "lack of depth" wasn't an issue of lack of resources. What is depth?
-Is it your 2nd line? The Leafs had one of the most expensive in the league with Mikheyev-Tavares-Nylander or Marner.
-Is it your 3rd line? Again, the grouping of Robertson-Kerfoot-Kapanen should have been a more than competent 3rd line. Their $7.5m cap hit was basically on par with what Columbus spent on its #2 and #3 lines.
-Is it your 4th line? I'm not sure that I necessarily see anything wrong with a grouping of Clifford-Spezza-Engvall.

To me, the real problem is/was that despite grossly over-matching Columbus in offensive firepower, the big guys simply couldn't "bring it" every shift. Columbus leading point-getter was Dubois with 49. They had 2 guys with 20 goals, and one of them was a defenceman. Toronto had 4 players with a minimum of 59 points, and Matthews who had 80. They had Matthews with 47 goals, Nylander with 31, Tavares with 26, and Hyman with 21. Toronto was the 3rd highest scoring team in the league this year, Columbus was 28th. Columbus should have been chasing this series trying to get matchups to stop the double-headed monster of the Leafs top 2 lines. Instead, they simply threw whomever out there, waited for their opportunities, and the Leafs scored at will when it was 6 on 5 with the globetrotter line on the ice (as they arguably should).

As for what the solution is, as much as I'd like to say it's clearing house with the 3rd line and replacing them with some grittier players like Tampa did, I don't see how that's possible given the current cap situation. They've got 17 players under contract next year, with $4.5m of space and 6 roster spots to fill -- essentially league minimum per player. The right side of their D includes Justin Holl and Martin Marincin.

Presumably, they'll have Robertson joining the fray on the left side, but as talented as he is, he's not overly gritty. Moving out Johnsson will probably allow them to retain Dermott and Mikheyev, but at the end of the day, that leaves you with a group that looks quite similar to the one that the Leafs iced in games 1-4 of the series, with Barrie & Ceci out, Sandin & Liljegren in.

Personally, I think they've either gotta move Nylander, thereby bringing Kapanen into the top 6 and using the money to get a defenceman like Manson and a grittier player onto the 3rd line, or clear out all 3 of Kapanen/Johnsson/Kerfoot, and build a much better 3rd line, or the nuclear option of moving Marner and going for a big name on the blueline.
 

thusk

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Jul 15, 2011
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Chicoutimi
Defender affect attack. If your d can't defend well, you will not take any risk offensivly... so opponent will protect our 3 foward with 5 player and give a lot of space to your d because your d will only do safe play like dump the puck behind the net to avoid any risk of turnover. We cant winning playoff series like that and its what leafs did all series long, and whats leafs did against boston bruins 2 years in a row.
 

BrannigansLaw

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Once again, a 1 game sample. Also, outplaying the other guy doesn't always mean winning the game, and you'd know that if you actually read instead of looking for a gotcha. Columbus got absolutely destroyed in that game. Tampa should have scored over 7 goals in that time. Korpisalo was the better goaltender. He did his job better than the other guy, and WAY better than what should be expected.

I criticize Dubas when it's deserved, and I have been a big supporter of Andersen until this year, when he deserves the criticism he's getting.

Both of those statements are factually true.

Our offense did do their job. They created chances and controlled the play. Sometimes you can't beat a hot goaltender no matter what you do, especially on horrible ice. Thought that might have occurred to you after watching the Tampa game.

Not sure why we're even talking about Aho in the first place, and you're just going to ignore and twist anything I say like usual, but:

Past 2 years:

ES P/60 (No EN)

Marner: 2.72
Aho: 2.16

ES P1/60 (No EN)

Marner: 2.28
Aho: 1.66

PP P/60

Marner: 6.71
Aho: 5.59

PP P1/60

Marner: 4.18
Aho: 3.41

Queue the deflections like "linemates" or "competition" or "defense", without even doing any research to understand that those excuses don't help Aho like you think, not that it would ever be able to counter that significant gap.

Which is the problem with ignoring massive samples to look at 3 games against wildly different opponent quality, where one plays against the worst defensive team and a struggling goalie, shooting unsustainably well, and the other plays against the best defensive team and an insanely hot goalie, shooting unsustainably bad.

I understand your useless example perfectly well.

The only one dismissing something valid here is you. The NHL decides. The NHL says it's the playoffs.

They were called both, because they were both.

Except for this year.

Yes, they did.

The level of "accomplishment" is irrelevant. That's something you can decide on your own. What you can't decide on your own is whether something is the playoffs or not. The NHL has decided that it's the playoffs.

In terms of measuring specifically defense? Yes.

I also provided tons of other defensive statistics which NY is also at the bottom in.

What exactly is your point? We should hold our heads high and think this group hasn’t regressed since they “made” the playoffs in a quirk format that saw every team in a 31 team league except for 7 make the playoffs?

My guess is you have no point and are just defending Dubas as ridiculous as it makes you look
 

BrannigansLaw

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See post #2 in this thread.

I disagree. This team has fundamental flaws that can only be addressed by trade and more importantly a stark shift away from the Dubas vision. They’ve had four chances to close out a series these past four years and have shown they can’t. I can understand Boston but Columbus f***ing sucks.
 

Durrr

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Sep 11, 2012
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Nice post. I agree with everything and while I get why some people think Tavares was a mistake and there's something to what they say, I just don't see how I could ever call that a mistake. This place was 99% thrilled when it happened and there was good reason for that. I also thought he was one of our best players in the playoffs. Everything you said about Kadri is spot on as well IMO.

Yeah that's the thing, Tavares is one of those rare opportunities that I just don't think any team could ever turn down. It gave us the 2nd or 3rd best 1A/1B center combo in the league behind the Pens and Oilers, and we didn't have to tank or give up any assets to do so. On top of this, Tavares was relativity young and isn't going to be very old when the contracts over. The issue here, is that the Leafs had not yet accumulated the depth required through the draft to fill out the roster and it pushed us into an immediate "win now" scenario that we can't catch up with because we didn't have that extra 1-2 years of depth acquisitions before our core grew to the median age of 23/24.

For Kadri, I don't think you can even ask for a better trade on paper. You got a 3C that hypothetically was scoring at a slightly lower clip then Kadri himself, and a #3 defender that can fill out the roster while your younger D take a step forward in development. In reality, Barrie had an awful season and didn't bring much, you didn't get the steps forward you'd hope from guys like Dermott and Kerfoot shot lower then his career s% and had didn't bring much else to the lineup.
 
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Northern Avs Fan

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May 27, 2019
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Maple Leafs off-season. How bad did I fail?

Step 1: Trade 1

To Det: Marner

To Tor: Hronek, Zadina, Helm, 2021 2nd round pick


Step 2: Trade 2

To NJ: Johnson, 2021 3rd round pick

To Tor: Miles Wood


Step 3: Free agency: sign Chris Tanev 3 years X $6M

Nylander - Matthews - Hymen
Mikheyev - Tavares - Zadina
Robertson - Kerfoot - Wood
Kapanen - Spezza - Helm

Rielly - Tanev
Muzzin - Hronek
Sandin - Holl/Dermott

Anderson
 

BrannigansLaw

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It's interesting how people claim that the best defensive team in the league sucks, but then those same people want to blow up our team to get better defensively.

Jesus do you even realize how ridiculous this sounds?

People aren’t saying emulate Columbus exactly. They’re anemic offensively. We need a strong blend.
 
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