So I'm in Tampa. It's made me realize what a mess our marketing is.

[AchtzehnBaby]

So, I just did a bit of digging on LinkedIn to see who works or worked for The Ottawa Senators marketing/media team... I was not too impressed with what was found.

This is serious issue... and may be the cause of the weak fan base in Ottawa.

 

[RealSpartan]

Another thing that drives me crazy and is somewhat related to this issue is just how damn easy it is to be a fan of another team but the Sens in this city, especially the two teams nearest us.

Except for the Sens stores, local stores that sell any sort of NHL team branded merchandise will always display the other teams' merchandise as prominently, and sometimes more prominently, as the Senators merchandise. I'm talking about sports stores, toy stores, clothing stores ... Unbelievable. If unaware one might wonder what the local team actually is.

I lived in Montreal for 3 years and walking into a typical store you'd not get so much as a sniff of another team's merchandise. Some exceptions may exist, but there's never any doubt what the home team is there.

Most teams are very territorial and protective of their brand but we're bloody weak at it. I realize that the team probably has limited (any?) control over what a private entity sells, but the idea that you can find other team gear so easily here at all, let alone displayed "proudly" right alongside our team's stuff is crazy.

 

[TheBradyBunch]

Tarps>>>banners

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Another thing that drives me crazy and is somewhat related to this issue is just how damn easy it is to be a fan of another team but the Sens in this city, especially the two teams nearest us.

Except for the Sens stores, local stores that sell any sort of NHL team branded merchandise will always display the other teams' merchandise as prominently, and sometimes more prominently, as the Senators merchandise. I'm talking about sports stores, toy stores, clothing stores ... Unbelievable. If unaware one might wonder what the local team actually is.

I lived in Montreal for 3 years and walking into a typical store you'd not get so much as a sniff of another team's merchandise. Some exceptions may exist, but there's never any doubt what the home team is there.

Most teams are very territorial and protective of their brand but we're bloody weak at it. I realize that the team probably has limited (any?) control over what a private entity sells, but the idea that you can find other team gear so easily here at all, let alone displayed "proudly" right alongside our team's stuff is crazy.

I think you underestimate how $ influences businesses. Montreal and Leaf gear sell pretty well so why not try to make a buck

 

[jbeck5]

Basically Tampa Bay Lightning is just a hobby for him and a tax write off, kind of like Melnyk when Biovail was his primary source of income and the Sens were his tax write off.

The key difference sounds like Vinik either has a legitimate business making him money or he just hasn't got caught for accounting fraud like our big boss did.

I always see people say "they just use the teams losses as a tax right off" and I've never been able to find any law that explains this. I just finished my chapter/unit on taxes in accounting. I haven't been able to find anything that tells me you can pay less taxes because one of your businesses doesnt make money. So I figure I'd ask the next person that says it until I get an answer.

Does someone who makes 50 million profit from his business pay more taxes than someone who makes 100 million in one business and lose 50 million in another for a net profit of 50 million from his combined businesses?

I just don't understand how it can be more beneficial for one person's business to lose money rather than make money...how do tax savings on losses make up for potential profit earned?

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

I always see people say "they just use the teams losses as a tax right off" and I've never been able to find any law that explains this. I just finished my chapter/unit on taxes in accounting. I haven't been able to find anything that tells me you can pay less taxes because one of your businesses doesnt make money. So I figure I'd ask the next person that says it until I get an answer.

Does someone who makes 50 million profit from his business pay more taxes than someone who makes 100 million in one business and lose 50 million in another for a net profit of 50 million from his combined businesses?

I just don't understand how it can be more beneficial for one person's business to lose money rather than make money...how do tax savings on losses make up for potential profit earned?

All I know is that Twitter has never once made a profit yet its valued at a gabijillion dollars. Amazon apparently never makes a profit either, or at least they never used to.

Also, I never understood how Netflix has the money to pour into these original TV shows.

But then again most business talk bores the hell out of me, I never found it interesting.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

You can tell youre not in the know when it comes to marketing.

Why does McDonald's advertise? Surely everyone knows they exist. Because it works.

Well McDonalds adversities because they have a LOT of competition, in Ottawa, for consumers who eat at Fast Food outlets ......... I don't think I have to list them all, as I'm sure you've seen their Marketing as well.

So Comparing McDonalds, to the Senators is not a good way to prove your point and undermines your self proclaimed expertise in marketing.

The Senators, as I've pointed out, have very little in terms of competition for sports entertainment dollars,in the Ottawa/Gatineau region, other than the two local Junior teams, and the few home games the Redbacks play in October and November.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Another thing that drives me crazy and is somewhat related to this issue is just how damn easy it is to be a fan of another team but the Sens in this city, especially the two teams nearest us.

Except for the Sens stores, local stores that sell any sort of NHL team branded merchandise will always display the other teams' merchandise as prominently, and sometimes more prominently, as the Senators merchandise. I'm talking about sports stores, toy stores, clothing stores ... Unbelievable. If unaware one might wonder what the local team actually is.

I lived in Montreal for 3 years and walking into a typical store you'd not get so much as a sniff of another team's merchandise. Some exceptions may exist, but there's never any doubt what the home team is there.

Most teams are very territorial and protective of their brand but we're bloody weak at it. I realize that the team probably has limited (any?) control over what a private entity sells, but the idea that you can find other team gear so easily here at all, let alone displayed "proudly" right alongside our team's stuff is crazy.

I think whomever does the "buying" for a retail outlet........ let's take Giant Tiger for example, buys what will sell.

If you browse through any GT, you'll see more Leafs and Habs Tee Shirts/Sweaters/Hoodies and such, than Senators gear. You'll also see a ton of RedBlacks merchandise, but no other CFL team's gear.

In a private business, they buy what is proven to sell, or they go out of business eventually.

 

[Micklebot]

Well McDonalds adversities because they have a LOT of competition, in Ottawa, for consumers who eat at Fast Food outlets ......... I don't think I have to list them all, as I'm sure you've seen their Marketing as well.

So Comparing McDonalds, to the Senators is not a good way to prove your point and undermines your self proclaimed expertise in marketing.

The Senators, as I've pointed out, have very little in terms of competition for sports entertainment dollars,in the Ottawa/Gatineau region, other than the two local Junior teams, and the few home games the Redbacks play in October and November.

As an Ottawa resident, there are tons of sporting events I can go to; Sens, Redblacks, Fury, Fatcats (or whatever they are called now), 67's, Olympique, Ravens, GG's ect, and that's just local. I can also make the pilgrimage to Buffalo or NY to see some NFL.

More importantly though, my disposable income isn't locked into sports entertainment; if I spend more on movies, or fast food, that impacts how much I can spend on Sens. The sens aren't competing for a share of my sports entertainment budget, they are competing for any of my budget. It's not a case of I'll only spend this money on attending live sports, I might use it for a new TV, to take my family out on vacation, to make car payments, to repair my roof. The Sens need to convince me that I'd rather spend a grand on season tickets than anything else, regardless of whether or not it would otherwise be spent on sports or not.

 

[NorthCoast]

I always see people say "they just use the teams losses as a tax right off" and I've never been able to find any law that explains this. I just finished my chapter/unit on taxes in accounting. I haven't been able to find anything that tells me you can pay less taxes because one of your businesses doesnt make money. So I figure I'd ask the next person that says it until I get an answer.

Does someone who makes 50 million profit from his business pay more taxes than someone who makes 100 million in one business and lose 50 million in another for a net profit of 50 million from his combined businesses?

I just don't understand how it can be more beneficial for one person's business to lose money rather than make money...how do tax savings on losses make up for potential profit earned?

(Preface: i'm not an accountant so google if you want a legit explanation).

Basically, it's because billionaires can "pass-through" income/loses from a business to their personal taxes. Therefore, if Vinik makes 100 million in capital gains from his financial investments, he would owe a lot in personal income tax. But if he takes the loss from the team and applies it to his investment gains he can significantly lower his personal taxes.

Pass-through Taxes and Business Owners

 

[slamigo]

The Sens need to convince me that I'd rather spend a grand on season tickets than anything else, regardless of whether or not it would otherwise be spent on sports or not.

Exactly. If I ask my kids would they rather go to one Sens game or I can buy a PS4, which do you think they will want? Because it’s the same amount of money to me.

 

[Engineer]

Well McDonalds adversities because they have a LOT of competition, in Ottawa, for consumers who eat at Fast Food outlets ......... I don't think I have to list them all, as I'm sure you've seen their Marketing as well.

So Comparing McDonalds, to the Senators is not a good way to prove your point and undermines your self proclaimed expertise in marketing.

The Senators, as I've pointed out, have very little in terms of competition for sports entertainment dollars,in the Ottawa/Gatineau region, other than the two local Junior teams, and the few home games the Redbacks play in October and November.

Time to go back to econ 101 and learn what supply and demand is and how flawed your argument is, and no I'm not going to explain it to you because this is such high level simple logic it shouldn't need to be.

The amount of mental gymnastics you go through to defend the organisation at all costs is amazing.

 

[topshelf15]

Meh .its been pretty obvious ..That EM has had no interest in investing any money, into future growth of the fanbase or the brand...He wants it all given to him,by using tired old statements like ...He saved the team,or we are a small market that is just lucky to have a team.....

Yet us fans are the sole reason ,that they are planning to move the team into a new arena in a huge mulibillion dollar arena........Anybody here can say what they want but i have been with this team since day 1,and iam tired of always having to feel we owe more to have great team....So if we have to go another 25 years of always trying to measure up to a greedy owner,then just move the damn team...Because its just not worth it

 

[danielpalfredsson]

As an Ottawa resident, there are tons of sporting events I can go to; Sens, Redblacks, Fury, Fatcats (or whatever they are called now), 67's, Olympique, Ravens, GG's ect, and that's just local. I can also make the pilgrimage to Buffalo or NY to see some NFL.

More importantly though, my disposable income isn't locked into sports entertainment; if I spend more on movies, or fast food, that impacts how much I can spend on Sens. The sens aren't competing for a share of my sports entertainment budget, they are competing for any of my budget. It's not a case of I'll only spend this money on attending live sports, I might use it for a new TV, to take my family out on vacation, to make car payments, to repair my roof. The Sens need to convince me that I'd rather spend a grand on season tickets than anything else, regardless of whether or not it would otherwise be spent on sports or not.

Not to mention, this team is competing with the Maple Leafs and Canadiens in their own territory. Marketing the team locally as an exciting aspect of being from Ottawa is incredibly important in order to engage the next generation of fans.

Lots of people come from families who are multi-generation Maple Leafs or Canadiens fans. The parents try to convert their kids to their team rather than the local team. With that respect, there is a ton of competition here in Ottawa. Especially if we're talking about Orleans or Gatineau.

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

Well McDonalds adversities because they have a LOT of competition, in Ottawa, for consumers who eat at Fast Food outlets ......... I don't think I have to list them all, as I'm sure you've seen their Marketing as well.

So Comparing McDonalds, to the Senators is not a good way to prove your point and undermines your self proclaimed expertise in marketing.

The Senators, as I've pointed out, have very little in terms of competition for sports entertainment dollars,in the Ottawa/Gatineau region, other than the two local Junior teams, and the few home games the Redbacks play in October and November.

Just because there is a lack of competition sports-wise for the Senators, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't make their presence in the city known and felt. You walk around downtown (where a large majority of humans, both locals and tourists are), and you'd have no clue there is an NHL franchise. You need to create buzz, and a deep sense of city pride that Ottawa = Senators. Plaster our logo as many places as possible. This is especially important in a city that is infested with Habs and Leaf fans, as half the population already has no interest in seeing Sens vs (random team).

I think whomever does the "buying" for a retail outlet........ let's take Giant Tiger for example, buys what will sell.

If you browse through any GT, you'll see more Leafs and Habs Tee Shirts/Sweaters/Hoodies and such, than Senators gear. You'll also see a ton of RedBlacks merchandise, but no other CFL team's gear.

In a private business, they buy what is proven to sell, or they go out of business eventually.

I agree with you here.

 

[Micklebot]

Not to mention, this team is competing with the Maple Leafs and Canadiens in their own territory. Marketing the team locally as an exciting aspect of being from Ottawa is incredibly important in order to engage the next generation of fans.

Lots of people come from families who are multi-generation Maple Leafs or Canadiens fans. The parents try to convert their kids to their team rather than the local team. With that respect, there is a ton of competition here in Ottawa. Especially if we're talking about Orleans or Gatineau.

Yeah, this is probably the most important bit. If your growing up in a house that always throws on the Habs game or the leafs game, odds are you'll grow up into a habs fan or a leafs fan unless the local team does something to win you over.

This idea that Ottawa doesn't need to market itself is astoundingly dumb imo, if anything, I'd argue we need to market ourselves more than most, and certainly the most of any Canadian team,,

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Yeah, this is probably the most important bit. If your growing up in a house that always throws on the Habs game or the leafs game, odds are you'll grow up into a habs fan or a leafs fan unless the local team does something to win you over.

This idea that Ottawa doesn't need to market itself is astoundingly dumb imo, if anything, I'd argue we need to market ourselves more than most, and certainly the most of any Canadian team,,

It also goes against the basic fundamental ideas behind brands and marketing. There's no brand out there, even one that has a monopoly, that doesn't need to market itself.

Marketing isn't just about telling people the Senators exist, it is about manipulating how they perceive the "brand" or what feelings they associate with it. It's a constant thing, and not something that a major brand can just do once and say "okay they know who we are and there isn't a lot of competition, we never need to market again"

(Not that I agree about there not being a lot of competition, but whether that is true or not isn't central to my point)

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

As an Ottawa resident, there are tons of sporting events I can go to; Sens, Redblacks, Fury, Fatcats (or whatever they are called now), 67's, Olympique, Ravens, GG's ect, and that's just local. I can also make the pilgrimage to Buffalo or NY to see some NFL.

More importantly though, my disposable income isn't locked into sports entertainment; if I spend more on movies, or fast food, that impacts how much I can spend on Sens. The sens aren't competing for a share of my sports entertainment budget, they are competing for any of my budget. It's not a case of I'll only spend this money on attending live sports, I might use it for a new TV, to take my family out on vacation, to make car payments, to repair my roof. The Sens need to convince me that I'd rather spend a grand on season tickets than anything else, regardless of whether or not it would otherwise be spent on sports or not.

Okay, are you saying the NUMBER of Sports Entertainment choices we have in Ottawa, during the NHL season, is the exact same as it is in Tampa?

Tampa is what the original poster was comparing Ottawa to.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Time to go back to econ 101 and learn what supply and demand is and how flawed your argument is, and no I'm not going to explain it to you because this is such high level simple logic it shouldn't need to be.

The amount of mental gymnastics you go through to defend the organisation at all costs is amazing.

So you're saying that the Senators, an NHL franchise, has the same amount of competitors in their industry, as McDonalds has in theirs .......... and therefore they should do the same amount of advertising, in Ottawa as McDonalds does?

 

[pzeeman]

So you're saying that the Senators, an NHL franchise, has the same amount of competitors in their industry, as McDonalds has in theirs .......... and therefore they should do the same amount of advertising, in Ottawa as McDonalds does?

The Senators are competing for entertainment and lesiure dollars, not NHL dollars. This means they need to grab attention from movies, plays, concerts, outdoor activities, minor sports, TV, video games, books, magazines....

The target of the advertising is a bit different from Tampa's. One of the pictures posted at the start of the thread was a wall in mall that gave stats about hockey and players. Obviously, that wouldn't play well in hockey-mad Ottawa. But that doesn't mean that advertising here is pointless. Buzz needs to be generated to encourage people to spend their entertainment dollars on NHL hockey, not just their major sports entertainment dollars.

 

[Micklebot]

Okay, are you saying the NUMBER of Sports Entertainment choices we have in Ottawa, during the NHL season, is the exact same as it is in Tampa?

Tampa is what the original poster was comparing Ottawa to.

The senators competes for your discretionary spending, not your sports dollars. There is ample competition for discretionary spending, pretty much no matter where you live. Moreover, Tampa has a metro population 3 times as big as Ottawa, so even if they do have more businesses competing for a piece of the pie, the pie is significantly larger. So no, I'm not saying that Tampa and Ottawa have the same number of sports entertainment options, I'm saying that comparing the number of sports entertainment options between the two cities is down right dumb and doesn't do anything to explain why Tampa market's there team far better and more aggressively.

All this to say, marketing isn't just about making sure people are aware of and have knowledge of your product. It's also about creating a buzz around your product. Everybody knows about the sens, but the team has done a profoundly poor job of creating a buzz around the team.

The real question is this; if Ottawa put out a marketing campaign like that of the Bolts, would they get a return on the investment? I think it's pretty clear they aren't getting all that much of a return on whatever they are investing into marketing the team currently...

 

[slamigo]

All this to say, marketing isn't just about making sure people are aware of and have knowledge of your product. It's also about creating a buzz around your product. Everybody knows about the sens, but the team has done a profoundly poor job of creating a buzz around the team.

The real question is this; if Ottawa put out a marketing campaign like that of the Bolts, would they get a return on the investment? I think it's pretty clear they aren't getting all that much of a return on whatever they are investing into marketing the team currently...

In Ottawa, it seems to me that buzz or word of mouth is a big driver of social participation. Last spring, even with the playoffs, folks that I hang out with were not talking about how well the Senators were playing. They were talking about how surprising it was that the Sens were still playing and most were convinced that it was all about to come crashing back down to earth. There wasn't much excitement around the team until midway through the ECF and then once they lost, it was like "well, see that? I knew they weren't going anywhere." That attitude was also coupled with the 'Boucher is boring' narrative that in all honesty I was also guilty of spreading. The hockey did become exciting, but by that point it was already an uphill battle to overcome a negative stigma.
All the sports outlets were covering the Senators playoff run with that same negative narrative of boring hockey and then when they weren't selling out the playoff games, that added to the negative narrative.

IMHO, the Senators marketing department was not prepared for the uphill battle that ensued. It also highlights the fact that an NHL franchise can never take its fans for granted simply because they are situated in a 'hockey market'.

 

[jbeck5]

All I know is that Twitter has never once made a profit yet its valued at a gabijillion dollars. Amazon apparently never makes a profit either, or at least they never used to.

Also, I never understood how Netflix has the money to pour into these original TV shows.

But then again most business talk bores the hell out of me, I never found it interesting.

Don't they just take all extra profit and put it into salaries account to save on taxes?

I understand moving money around to make it so you pay the least amount of taxes. But I don't understand losing money on purpose. I don't know of any law that makes you pay less taxes if one of the businesses you own doesn't make money while all the others do.

 

[jbeck5]

Well McDonalds adversities because they have a LOT of competition, in Ottawa, for consumers who eat at Fast Food outlets ......... I don't think I have to list them all, as I'm sure you've seen their Marketing as well.

So Comparing McDonalds, to the Senators is not a good way to prove your point and undermines your self proclaimed expertise in marketing.

The Senators, as I've pointed out, have very little in terms of competition for sports entertainment dollars,in the Ottawa/Gatineau region, other than the two local Junior teams, and the few home games the Redbacks play in October and November.

You missed the point of my post or the McDonald's argument. No one is claiming that they need advertisement to inform or remind people. It's to generate buzz.

Tim Hortons is pulling in way more revenue right now because they advertise much more right now with roll up the rim. McDonald's does Monopoly. When they do these events it isn't to remind people that big Macs exist. It's to generate excitement. All of a sudden people who make their own coffee might be more tempted to go to timmies. All of a sudden people who bring their lunch to school or work might get McDonald's for lunch.

The sens need to advertise and create a buzz and excitement that makes people wanna go to the game instead of sit on their butts and watch it on pvr at their own pace and skip commercials and intermissions.

Youre missing the whole point of marketing and advertising.

 

[jbeck5]

So you're saying that the Senators, an NHL franchise, has the same amount of competitors in their industry, as McDonalds has in theirs .......... and therefore they should do the same amount of advertising, in Ottawa as McDonalds does?

The senators have more competition since the competition is: any form of entertainment.

McDonald's competition in Canada? Burger King. Wendy's. Harvey's. Five guys....pretty much it for fast food burger joint

Senators competition? Any movie. Any show. Any sport. Basically anything to pass the time, offer entertainment, and take your money. The list could go for 8,000 pages.