Slow Decline of the Islanders' Dynasty (c.1984 to 1988)

The Panther

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Talk of Pat Lafontaine made me think about the Islanders' post-Dynasty era of circa 1984 to 1988. (I'll pick those years because Denis Potvin retired in 1988, which was the last year they made the playoffs for a long time, and Billy Smith retired the next season, while Trottier fell off a cliff.)

Quick rundown of events:
1983-84
Islanders get 104 points (2nd overall to Edmonton), but are dethroned by Oilers in five games.
1984-85
Islanders get 86 points, 3rd in Patrick, their lowest total since 1974. They eliminate 101-point Washington, but then are smoked by 1st overall Philly.
1985-86
Islanders get 90 points, 3rd in Patrick, but are swept by 107-point Washington in the first round. Al Arbour departs as coach after this season, but stays with the organization (only to return as coach early in 1988-89).
1986-87
(New coach is Terry Simpson.) Islanders get 82 points, lowest total since 1974, but are still third in the Patrick. They eliminate Washington in seven games (Lafontaine overtime goal), and then surprisingly go seven vs. Philly before falling. Bossy plays his last.
1987-88
(Brent Sutter becomes team captain.) Islanders get 88 points, which amazingly is 1st in the Patrick. But they go down to surprising New Jersey in six games in round one. Denis Potvin retires after this season.

A few things surprise me about this period of Dynasty decline. I guess I'm a little surprised that Al Arbour stayed on through 1986... often when a Dynasty ends the head coach is fired, resigns, or moves into an executive position pretty quickly. Arbour, as I understand, 'removed himself' in 1986 (and then came back in '88). It also strikes me that the team kept the very same core players until about 1988 that they'd had since 1978 or so -- Bossy, Trottier, Potvin, Smith, Morrow, and Brent Sutter (from '81) were are still on the team as late as spring 1988, some longer. Of course, they moved in a lot of younger guys in this period (notably Lafontaine, who took over from Bossy in 1987 or so as top sniper), but a lot of those guys were pretty long in the tooth by '88.


So, I'm wondering if people think the Islanders managed their years of decline well? Did they do the right thing in keeping Al Arbour until 1986 and then hiring Terry Simpson (who lasted only two seasons)? Did they stick with the Dynasty-core players too long, or not? Why did Sutter become team captain (when Potvin was still playing) in 1987-88? Did they realistically have any chance of going back to the Finals in '85 or '86?
 
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brachyrynchos

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I remember reading somewhere that Torrey said he was too loyal to the players that made the dynasty and that he held on to some of them too long. And those key players were banged up and tired from winning 19 straight playoff series.
 

GlitchMarner

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On paper, it's jarring how suddenly Trottier's career significantly deteriorates after the 1987-1988 season.

1988 season: He puts up 82 points in 77 games (not amazing for the time but not shabby at all).

1988 playoffs: Zero points, -9 rating in six games against New Jersey.

1989 season: 45 points in 73 games.

1990 season: 24 points in 59 games.

1990 playoffs: One point, -4 rating in four game loss to the Rangers.

Bought out in 1990.
 
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brachyrynchos

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Losing Devellano (and to a lesser degree Neil Smith) hurt the Isles a bit. Not sure who exactly took over the scouting, but the Isles draft picks after '82 are more miss than hit, a shift towards hard working guys over skilled. Dalgarno, Fitzgerald, Lauer, were all good depth guys, but they couldn't puck the puck in the net, and the Islanders needed more offensive help. The Sutter brothers and Lafontaine were good, just wasn't enough. The defense seemed pretty much unchanged, too. Potvin had (hip?) problems I believe, and Morrow's knees were shot. Persson, Lane, Dineen, and Diduck were the others. Good teams, but no longer as much of a threat as they once were.
 

streitz

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On paper, it's jarring how suddenly Trottier's career significantly deteriorates after the 1987-1988 season.

1988 season: He puts up 82 points in 77 games (not amazing for the time but not shabby at all).

1988 playoffs: Zero points, -9 rating in six games against New Jersey.

1989 season: 45 points in 73 games.

1990 season: 24 points in 59 games.

1990 playoffs: One point, -4 rating in four game loss to the Rangers.

Bought out in 1990.


This is interesting, what do you think the exact reason for his decline was?
 

brachyrynchos

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Trottier's numbers could be reflective of his mileage and also top center minutes going to Lafontaine and Sutter, his offense and his legs slowed down either way. Still a good leader and good defensively.
 
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reckoning

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Prior to the 84-85 season they hired Brian Kilrea to be an assistant coach for two years; and while there were no promises made, everyone assumed that he would be taking over as head coach in '86 when Arbour stepped down. But Bill Torrey felt that Kilrea was too chummy with the players (he often had them over at his house for BBQs); and when Arbour retired, Torrey went in the opposite direction and hired a disciplinarian in Terry Simpson. Maybe things would have turned out differently if Kilrea had got the job.


As far as showing too much loyalty to the veterans, I don't think that's a bad thing. If a few years of mediocrity with an aging roster is the price to be paid for having a dynasty that won 4 Cups in a row, please sign my team up for it.
 

The Panther

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Anyone remember why Brent Sutter became captain in 1987? Did Potvin have a feud with Terry Simpson, or was it just one of those things where Potvin told everyone he'd be retiring soon so they thought to change the captain sooner...?
 

Staniowski

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Anyone remember why Brent Sutter became captain in 1987? Did Potvin have a feud with Terry Simpson, or was it just one of those things where Potvin told everyone he'd be retiring soon so they thought to change the captain sooner...?
Not absolutely sure, but, yeah, I think it was because Potvin was retiring. He announced in the summer of '87 that '87-'88 would be his final season.

It's worth noting that Potvin might never have been captain if Gillies - who was younger than Potvin - hadn't given it up in the summer of '79. Gillies apparently found the captaincy to be too much pressure, said it caused him a lot of stress.
 
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BadgerBruce

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Losing Devellano (and to a lesser degree Neil Smith) hurt the Isles a bit. Not sure who exactly took over the scouting, but the Isles draft picks after '82 are more miss than hit, a shift towards hard working guys over skilled. Dalgarno, Fitzgerald, Lauer, were all good depth guys, but they couldn't puck the puck in the net, and the Islanders needed more offensive help. The Sutter brothers and Lafontaine were good, just wasn't enough. The defense seemed pretty much unchanged, too. Potvin had (hip?) problems I believe, and Morrow's knees were shot. Persson, Lane, Dineen, and Diduck were the others. Good teams, but no longer as much of a threat as they once were.

The Islanders championship teams were built more or less during the lifespan of the World Hockey Association.

What this means in a practical sense is that established NHL clubs saw their big team and minor league development teams raided, which robbed them of the organizational depth that should have provided a powerful advantage over any new team entering the NHL.

That huge advantage was taken away by the WHA and, to a lesser but still significant degree, the expansion drafts that initially stocked the new NHL clubs in the 70s.

The NY Islanders drafted extraordinarily well over the first decade of their existence. The core skaters on their Cup-winning teams did not spend any time in the minors at all. And I mean virtually NONE.

Look closely at the 79-80 Cup winning team:

Trottier 0 games in the minors
Bossy 0 games in the minors
Gillies 0 games in the minors
Potvin 0 games in the minors
D. Sutter, 0 games in the minors
Tonelli. 0 games in the minors
Harris, 0 games in the minors
Persson 0 games in the minors
Morrow 0 games in the minors
Langevin 0 games in the minors
Kallur 2 games in the minors

There are others I haven’t listed, but you get the point.

That’s extraordinary drafting over a 6-7 year period, and in my view this exceptional drafting allowed the Islanders to overcome the “established system depth” of their competitors. The traditional approach — “Draft, season in the minors and then promote” — just didn’t work once the WHA came along and offered players as young as 17 immediate opportunities to monetize their on-ice skills. We know that many solid players already within an NHL team’s developmental system just left for the WHA rather than “fully ripen” in the minors. I don’t blame the players for doing this, but the best laid plans for the future of many NHL organizations didn’t exactly work out too well.

As a brand new franchise the year the WHA was born, the Islanders had no minor league system of substance for the WHA to raid. They drafted juniors and promoted them directly to the big club in one step. No development time at all during this decade of cut throat competition for players.

How did it shake out? Well first of all, one of the most jaw-droppingly superb examples of “training them to be winning pros on the job” I’ve ever seen. A team that wins 4 Cups in a row, reaches 5 consecutive finals, and is made up not just of draft picks selected largely from 72-78, but almost entirely of players who never even sniffed the minors? My God — kudos to the late Al Arbour and the unbelievably good scouting staff in place at the time. One could argue that Arbour’s ability to essentially hothouse those players until they became a dynasty is the most forgotten aspect of his exceptional career behind the bench.

The decline of the Islanders? A draft record that couldn’t come close to matching the success in the 70s, and a minor league development system with no real track record of developing players and graduating them to the big club.

If you look at the Islanders #1 picks in the Entry draft from their first season in 1972 until 1979, the season they won their first Cup, it looks like this:

1972: Billy Harris
1973: Denis Potvin
1974: Clark Gillies (and Trottier #2)
1975: Pat Price
1976: Mike Kaszycki
1977: Mike Bossy
1978: Steve Tambellini
1979: Duane Sutter

4 future Hall of Farmers in 8 drafts.
But from 1984 (the year the Oilers ended the ‘Drive for 5’) until 1991, the Islanders’ #1 picks look like this:

84: Duncan Macpherson
85: Brad Dalgarno
86: Tom Fitzgerald
87: Dean Chynoweth
88: Kevin Cheveldayoff
89: Dave Chyzowski
90: Scott Scissons
91: Scott Lachance

I do not know that much about the scouting staff turnover, but Jimmy Devellano left the team after the 1982 draft to join the Red Wings. There’s no question that the 8 drafts after the Drive for 5 season are simply horrid and strongly suggest that the scouting acumen that allowed the team to become competitive so quickly in the 70s utterly vanished (nobody could mess up the Lafontaine pick in 83).

In short, the decline of the Islanders has less to do with the club being loyal to a veteran cast and more to do with a very iffy minor league system and flat out anemic drafting.
 

Staniowski

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The Islanders championship teams were built more or less during the lifespan of the World Hockey Association.

What this means in a practical sense is that established NHL clubs saw their big team and minor league development teams raided, which robbed them of the organizational depth that should have provided a powerful advantage over any new team entering the NHL.

That huge advantage was taken away by the WHA and, to a lesser but still significant degree, the expansion drafts that initially stocked the new NHL clubs in the 70s.

The NY Islanders drafted extraordinarily well over the first decade of their existence. The core skaters on their Cup-winning teams did not spend any time in the minors at all. And I mean virtually NONE.

Look closely at the 79-80 Cup winning team:

Trottier 0 games in the minors
Bossy 0 games in the minors
Gillies 0 games in the minors
Potvin 0 games in the minors
D. Sutter, 0 games in the minors
Tonelli. 0 games in the minors
Harris, 0 games in the minors
Persson 0 games in the minors
Morrow 0 games in the minors
Langevin 0 games in the minors
Kallur 2 games in the minors

There are others I haven’t listed, but you get the point.

That’s extraordinary drafting over a 6-7 year period, and in my view this exceptional drafting allowed the Islanders to overcome the “established system depth” of their competitors. The traditional approach — “Draft, season in the minors and then promote” — just didn’t work once the WHA came along and offered players as young as 17 immediate opportunities to monetize their on-ice skills. We know that many solid players already within an NHL team’s developmental system just left for the WHA rather than “fully ripen” in the minors. I don’t blame the players for doing this, but the best laid plans for the future of many NHL organizations didn’t exactly work out too well.

As a brand new franchise the year the WHA was born, the Islanders had no minor league system of substance for the WHA to raid. They drafted juniors and promoted them directly to the big club in one step. No development time at all during this decade of cut throat competition for players.

How did it shake out? Well first of all, one of the most jaw-droppingly superb examples of “training them to be winning pros on the job” I’ve ever seen. A team that wins 4 Cups in a row, reaches 5 consecutive finals, and is made up not just of draft picks selected largely from 72-78, but almost entirely of players who never even sniffed the minors? My God — kudos to the late Al Arbour and the unbelievably good scouting staff in place at the time. One could argue that Arbour’s ability to essentially hothouse those players until they became a dynasty is the most forgotten aspect of his exceptional career behind the bench.

The decline of the Islanders? A draft record that couldn’t come close to matching the success in the 70s, and a minor league development system with no real track record of developing players and graduating them to the big club.

If you look at the Islanders #1 picks in the Entry draft from their first season in 1972 until 1979, the season they won their first Cup, it looks like this:

1972: Billy Harris
1973: Denis Potvin
1974: Clark Gillies (and Trottier #2)
1975: Pat Price
1976: Mike Kaszycki
1977: Mike Bossy
1978: Steve Tambellini
1979: Duane Sutter

4 future Hall of Farmers in 8 drafts.
But from 1984 (the year the Oilers ended the ‘Drive for 5’) until 1991, the Islanders’ #1 picks look like this:

84: Duncan Macpherson
85: Brad Dalgarno
86: Tom Fitzgerald
87: Dean Chynoweth
88: Kevin Cheveldayoff
89: Dave Chyzowski
90: Scott Scissons
91: Scott Lachance

I do not know that much about the scouting staff turnover, but Jimmy Devellano left the team after the 1982 draft to join the Red Wings. There’s no question that the 8 drafts after the Drive for 5 season are simply horrid and strongly suggest that the scouting acumen that allowed the team to become competitive so quickly in the 70s utterly vanished (nobody could mess up the Lafontaine pick in 83).

In short, the decline of the Islanders has less to do with the club being loyal to a veteran cast and more to do with a very iffy minor league system and flat out anemic drafting.
Yes, I agree with BadgerBruce, it's mostly about drafting. Incredibly good in the '70s, very poor in the '80s. They ran out of good players. Virtually nothing between LaFontaine in '83 and Palffy in'91.

The Islanders were really the model expansion team. They made at least the semis 9 times in a 10 year period, losing in the semi finals in '75, '76, '77, and '79. So, they went to the semis 3 times pre-Bossy and once pre-Trottier.

It's usually about drafting. Compare to the late '70s Habs dynasty. After winning 4 Cups in the late '70s, they go on to have the best regular season record in the NHL over the next 15 season period ('79-'80 to '93-'94). I mean it's really astonishing that that could happen. But the main reason it happened was their great drafting record. They made some nice picks during the 4 Cup wins - Langway, Naslund, Carbonneau - followed by Chelios, Claude Lemieux, then the huge haul in '84 - top 4 selections were Svoboda, Corson, Richer, Roy - then another big year in '87 - Cassels, Desjardins, Schneider, LeClair.

I think the Islanders reached their full potential. They just couldn't replace the quality players they lost, and they just suffered a natural decline.
 

Troubadour

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As far as showing too much loyalty to the veterans, I don't think that's a bad thing. If a few years of mediocrity with an aging roster is the price to be paid for having a dynasty that won 4 Cups in a row, please sign my team up for it.

On a human level, I perfectly agree with what you're saying here. If a gang wins you four in a row, you don't get rid of them like a used diaper the moment they're used up.

But...

The price for that success had already been paid by then. Letting them overstay the warmest welcome was not the price they paid for success. It was a consequence of unwillingness to go all business on them. Which is pretty classy, but it was the price a guy decided to pay for treating them like a bunch of friends rather than employees.

From a strictly business point of view, not the wisest thing to do. Whatever you win will have been a long forgotten past the very moment you're past it. And if you wait till the old guard shrinks and vanishes, you lose the opportunity to build upon their success through slowly substituting the old guys with fresh blood that will learn from them while they still have something left. If you just wait till they all fall off, you might have to build from ground zero. And that kinda takes away one positive of having a dynasty in the first place. The foundation to build another one.

The current Islanders feel completely disconnected from that success. And I'm not sure that's the price too many people should wanna pay for staying loyal to the good old soldiers.
 

Staniowski

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On a human level, I perfectly agree with what you're saying here. If a gang wins you four in a row, you don't get rid of them like a used diaper the moment they're used up.

But...

The price for that success had already been paid by then. Letting them overstay the warmest welcome was not the price they paid for success. It was a consequence of unwillingness to go all business on them. Which is pretty classy, but it was the price a guy decided to pay for treating them like a bunch of friends rather than employees.

From a strictly business point of view, not the wisest thing to do. Whatever you win will have been a long forgotten past the very moment you're past it. And if you wait till the old guard shrinks and vanishes, you lose the opportunity to build upon their success through slowly substituting the old guys with fresh blood that will learn from them while they still have something left. If you just wait till they all fall off, you might have to build from ground zero. And that kinda takes away one positive of having a dynasty in the first place. The foundation to build another one.

The current Islanders feel completely disconnected from that success. And I'm not sure that's the price too many people should wanna pay for staying loyal to the good old soldiers.
But there wasn't any fresh blood that was of much quality. They had Brent Sutter and Pat LaFontaine...a few others were decent players, but their drafting was producing nothing. It really wasn't about the old guys hanging on. There wasn't anybody to replace them with.
 

brachyrynchos

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Nystrom, Bossy, Goring, Morrow, and Potvin were key guys that retired as Islanders, pretty much all due to injuries and age. Gillies and Bourne ended up on waivers, both got claimed. The trades and the returns were ok, but in hindsight they didn't get enough skill and speed, just alot of depth.
Tonelli- Konroyd & Kromm
Hrudey-Fitzpatrick, Mcbean, and Crossman was decent
Gilbert-5th rd (Steve Young)
Bassen & Konroyd -Bergevin & Nylund
Jonsson- 5th rd (Kevin O'Sullivan)

Lafontaine (the pick) was the return of the Lorimer & Cameron trade w/Colorado, which was a steal. Lafontaine eventually wanted out, he was offered good money but wasn't happy with the team. He was also one of the few skill guys the Isles drafted from the QMJHL, a league that had a stereotype of more skating and scoring. Isles favored guys from WHL, and the guys they drafted were hard working and responsible players, they just couldn't put the puck in the net, or they never panned out. And as the game got faster and scoring increased it was like the Isles just couldn't keep up anymore.
 
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Killion

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On a human level, I perfectly agree with what you're saying here. If a gang wins you four in a row, you don't get rid of them like a used diaper the moment they're used up.

But...

The price for that success had already been paid by then. Letting them overstay the warmest welcome was not the price they paid for success. It was a consequence of unwillingness to go all business on them. Which is pretty classy, but it was the price a guy decided to pay for treating them like a bunch of friends rather than employees.

From a strictly business point of view, not the wisest thing to do. Whatever you win will have been a long forgotten past the very moment you're past it. And if you wait till the old guard shrinks and vanishes, you lose the opportunity to build upon their success through slowly substituting the old guys with fresh blood that will learn from them while they still have something left. If you just wait till they all fall off, you might have to build from ground zero. And that kinda takes away one positive of having a dynasty in the first place. The foundation to build another one.

The current Islanders feel completely disconnected from that success. And I'm not sure that's the price too many people should wanna pay for staying loyal to the good old soldiers.

Yeah, good post. See the Leafs of the 60's if you'd like further illustrations of the points & case your making. Sports, hockey, Dog-Eat-Dog. It doesnt matter what youve done or accomplished as much as it does matter what are you about to do next shift, next save, next period, next game. So while loyalty, "class" a wonderful thing without performance and integration of younger talent then ya, wheels are gonna fall off and sometimes in a spectacular fashion as they did for the Leafs when the buzzer sounded on the evening of May the 2nd, 1967. However, if you were paying attention, despite the Cups you'd have seen those wheels wobbling much much earlier. And as with the Islanders, the franchise going into a decades long swoon which in the case of the Islanders threatened their very existence... as even during their salad days the franchise was losing $$$ hand over fist. The players, great Islanders teams, their Dynasty sandwiched as it was between the Canadiens & the Oilers largely overlooked, ignored, underrated. Patently unfair given what theyd accomplished.
 

reckoning

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The current Islanders feel completely disconnected from that success. And I'm not sure that's the price too many people should wanna pay for staying loyal to the good old soldiers.
I don't think I would blame any of the Islanders woes past 1993 on loyalty to their dynasty core. It had more to do with the blundering from ownership and management over the last 25 years (especially Milbury's reign of terror).

Logically, you'd assume that the veterans would be traded for prospects and picks. But the Isles had a lot of promising young talent. At the time, getting Konroyd and Kromm for Tonelli was seen as a good deal for the future. Chyzowski, Scissons and Lachance were highly rated by all the scouts. Would another couple of mid-first round picks made all the difference?

It's amazing how little success they've had as of late considering how many high picks they've had. Luongo and the Spezza pick were fumbled, Yet they still had two #1 overall picks in the 2000s, never won a playoff series, and now have nothing to show for it.
 

Sentinel

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TBH I do know where can the players who won the Cup four times in a row and then went to the Finals one more time even find motivation to play. It takes enormous strength of will and equally enormous wear and tear to win the Cup, and who can blame Bossy, Potvin, and other dynasty stalwarts for not having it in them anymore? They won everything there was to win: every award and every prize, individual and team.
 
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Sadekuuro

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And as with the Islanders, the franchise going into a decades long swoon which in the case of the Islanders threatened their very existence... as even during their salad days the franchise was losing $$$ hand over fist.

The Islanders were able to parlay their dynasty success into signing a spectacular TV contract lasting decades, giving them tens of millions a year in revenue that other teams could only dream of. If memory serves, when the franchise was sold in the 90s (not to Wang, but the previous group), that contract was worth more than the team itself--undoubtedly a major factor in their managing to stay afloat.
 

Killion

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The Islanders were able to parlay their dynasty success into signing a spectacular TV contract lasting decades, giving them tens of millions a year in revenue that other teams could only dream of. If memory serves, when the franchise was sold in the 90s (not to Wang, but the previous group), that contract was worth more than the team itself--undoubtedly a major factor in their managing to stay afloat.

... hiccup in-between with John Spanos Jr. of course... www.youtube.com/watch?v=55tbHgeNJds ... later on with Charles Wang.... Wang & Andrew Barroway..... Ice Arizona/Andrew Barrow & the Coyotes.... move to Barclays & sale of the club yet again..... rich broadcast contract while also receiving $50M a year from Barclays GUARANTEED regardless of how many people actually show up & buy tickets.... on & on & on..... insane.... and now hopefully headed back to LI & a new building.
 
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The Panther

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I realize we're in a different era, but the Islanders of the late-70s are probably a good example of why "blowing up the roster" after some disappointments is not a good idea.

1974-75
Isles' "breakout" season, where they match the Rangers in the standings for the first time (88 points) and go to the semi-finals in the playoffs, taking champion Philly to seven games.
1975-76
101-point season, but they lose in five to (unbeatable) Montreal in the semi-finals.
1976-77
106-point season, but they lose in six to (unbeatable) Montreal in the semi-finals.
1977-78
111-point season, but they get upset by Toronto in the second round (game 7 overtime).
1978-79
116-point season (1st overall); Bossy is NHL goals' leader; Trottier is the assists/points leader and wins the Hart trophy; but they get upset by the Rangers in the semi-finals.
1979-80 (regular season)
91-point season (including a 7-12-4 start), which is a 25-point drop from the year before.

During 1979-80, I think some people thought the Isles had already peaked and were starting to decline.
 
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BraveCanadian

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On paper, it's jarring how suddenly Trottier's career significantly deteriorates after the 1987-1988 season.

You can't play like Bryan Trottier for all those games and not have it catch up to you eventually.

There is no one like him today. A mix of finesse talent capable of winning a Ross, an elite level two-way center, and a physical force who hit everything that moved. Both thundering check variety and the plain ole bringing the lunchbox and grinding away in the corners. Might be the best all around center ever.
 

c9777666

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The '85 Flyers series was a real eye opener.

Philadelphia had an average team age of 24.5, which not only made them the youngest team in the NHL, but all of professional sports at the time.

It was stunning to believe a team with so many young guys and unproven players, save for Brian Propp, beat the 5-time conference champion Islanders in the second round- which probably had to be stunning at the time considering a grizzled championship-laden experienced team like the Islanders is usually supposed to beat young upstart teams.

Heck, they had just done a similar thing against the Capitals coming back from 0-2 down in a best-of-five series. The thinking probably was that maybe the Islanders would once again use their championship experience to beat a team that seemed ready to break through. I bet the Islanders were probably picked to make it 6 straight Cup Finals before the '85 playoffs based on their track record.

What did Philadelphia do that the Capitals couldn't?

Caps go up 2-0, blow it.

Flyers go up 3-0, don't blow it.

Theoretically, Washington should have been the team to deliver the first blow of mortality to the Isles, but didn't.
 
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