Single Season Records - OT sort of...

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Waterboy, Aug 1, 2006.

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  1. Waterboy

    Waterboy Registered User

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    The Greatest Player debat and my post in it got me thinking. What ARE the greatest single season records (or career records if you want to dig deeper) in sports and where do the great hockey records stand in relation?

    I said in my post I think the most amazing career record in sports is Cy Youngs 511 and that, IMO, the hardest single season record to break will be Gretz 50 goals in 36 games.

    Am I close (I'm sort of limited to Hockey and Ball for my sporting knowledge and even those I don't claim to be an expert in) or are there other records (Like Dimaggio's hit streak) that will stand longer, or are more impressive?

    Some other hockey markers to make you think:

    - Sawchuks SO record.
    - Selanne's rookie goal/points numbers.
    - Bossy's 9 consecutive 50+ goal seasons.
     
  2. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Gretzky winning the 86-87 scoring title by 69%, Gretzky winning the 85-86 assist title by 75% and Brett Hull winning the 90-91 goal scoring title by 69%.

    Those are the three most impressive hockey record but, NOTHING compares to the dominance that Babe Ruth had on the home run title in the 20s. He was the home run king by as much as 300% some years!
     
  3. canucksfan

    canucksfan Registered User

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    Glen Hall 502 consecutive games played. I can't see how any goalie will break that record.
     
  4. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Well Young's 511 wins will stand forever. It is the most unbeatbale record in North American sports. Because pitching has changed so much and shows no signs of changing back to a time when players got 30-40 wins a season.

    Gretzky's record in 39 games 50 goals not 36. That is more beatable then his career points record. IMO the most unbeatable record is 1) Gretzky's career assist record.

    The 50 goals in 39 games is not completly unchallengable. It is only a 50 game stretch. If say Heatley in Ottawa had a tremendous run to start the season this year he could challenge it. Is it unbelievable? Yes. Is it impossible to top? No. Young's 511 wins are impossible to top. Look at Clemens. He may be the best pitcher ever. He started in 1984. Since 1986 he has been one of the top pitchers in the world. In his early 40's he is about 170 wins from the record. An amazing 8 seasons away or a great 10 seasons away.
     
  5. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Forgot about that. ALso an unbreakable record.
     
  6. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Also in my mind both 92 goals and 215 points are more beatable than 163 assists as single season marks.

    163 assists.... You need a lot of help with that.
     
  7. revolverjgw

    revolverjgw Registered User

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    Yeah, the 163 always blew my mind, I can't see it ever falling unless hockey evolves to be as high scoring as, like, basketball or something. Gretzky himself never had another season that was even close to that.
     
  8. Waterboy

    Waterboy Registered User

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    Sorry...I did mean 39 games, my keyboard must be dislexic.

    I had no idea about the Hall record...that is amazing. I always considered Ripken's 2632 consecutive games as the benchmark for consecutive games played but Halls 500 + is just as impressive.

    Thanks for the input guys.

    Another question. How much do you think the way the game has changed (sports in general with players becoming stronger and faster, equipment improvements, rule changes, etc.) has effected the longevity or "unbreakableness" (is that a word? :biglaugh: ) of some of these records? Is it 100% or a split between that and the dominance of the player to set the records?

    Personally I give the changes, etc. a huge advantage although you could argue that a lot of the sports have added games to their seasons making the opportunity to break these records "easier" if you will.

    Gretzky was in a league by himself but I find it hard to believe (and hate even acknowleding it) that he would have dominated in todays game the way he did in the 80's...because of the way the game is played, the stronger competition and rule and equipment changes.

    Thoughts?
     
  9. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    If Gretzky played today, he would have all the advantages that today's players have. He would still dominate.
     
  10. revolverjgw

    revolverjgw Registered User

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    With today's deeper talent pool (deep enough to make up for the expansion, IMO), he wouldn't have lapped the field like was before Lemieux arrived. But I have no doubt he'd still win the Art Ross every year.
     
  11. jamiebez

    jamiebez Registered User

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    I think a lot of "career best" records concerned with longevity will stay unbroken, just because they become unfeasible due to the evolution of the game itself. They are not just due to talent, or skill, or even luck, but also to circumstances that will likely never exist again.

    For instance, it's not inconceivable that someone born today will be a more talented player than Gretzky and score 100 goals or get 200 assists in a season - even get 3000 points in a career (although that will be tough ;) ). But it's pretty inconceivable that the game will chance back to goalies playing every game of a season, giving someone a shot at Glenn Hall's consecutive games record. To me, that's certainly the most unbreakable NHL record.
     
  12. canucksfan

    canucksfan Registered User

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    Gretzky would still dominate. Scoring was higher in the 80's than it is today so he wouldn't have as many points as he did in the 80's but he still would be the best player.
     
  13. Cawz

    Cawz Registered User

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    Well, last seaon, the leaders were:

    1 Joe Thornton, 2 teams............125
    2 Jaromir Jagr, NY Rangers.........123
    3 Alexander Ovechkin, Washington...106
    4 Dany Heatley, Ottawa.............103
    4 Daniel Alfredsson, Ottawa........103
    6 Sidney Crosby, Pittsburgh........102
    7 Eric Staal, Carolina.............100
    8 Ilya Kovalchuk, Atlanta.......... 98
    9 Marc Savard, Atlanta............. 97
    10 Jonathan Cheechoo, San Jose...... 93

    Plus, the year before, the scoring race was won by 5'9" 180lb Martin St. Louis. Theres a lot of small players in the top 10, so I'm sure Wayne in his prime could have could have ecliped them all.

    Besides, take away Wayne, Mario and their teamates, and the top guys seem to be on par as last season.

    1 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton..........212
    2 Mike Bossy, NY Islanders.........147
    3 Peter Stastny, Quebec............139
    4 Dennis Maruk, Washington.........136
    5 Bryan Trottier, NY Islanders.....129

    1 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton..........205
    2 Paul Coffey, Edmonton............126
    3 Michel Goulet, Quebec............121
    4 Peter Stastny, Quebec............119
    5 Mike Bossy, NY Islanders.........118

    1 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton..........208
    2 Jari Kurri, Edmonton.............135
    3 Dale Hawerchuk, Winnipeg.........130
    4 Marcel Dionne, Los Angeles.......126
    5 Paul Coffey, Edmonton............121

    1 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton..........215
    2 Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh........141
    3 Paul Coffey, Edmonton............138
    4 Jari Kurri, Edmonton.............131
    5 Mike Bossy, NY Islanders.........123

    For Gretzky's 4 - 200 point seasons, the top player not on the Oilers or Penguins got 147, 121, 130 and 123 points. Last year Thornton got 125 points. The top end talent of yesteryear seems comparable to today.

    Heck, in 86/87:

    1 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton..........183
    2 Jari Kurri, Edmonton.............108
    3 Mark Messier, Edmonton...........107
    3 Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh........107
    5 Doug Gilmour, St. Louis..........105

    Todays game looks more high scoring than this, and Wayne still got 183 points.

    Wayne and Mario would still dominate in todays NHL.
     
  14. Waterboy

    Waterboy Registered User

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    When you see it broken down like that it not only shows how dominant Mario and Wayne really were, but also, I think, show's that even in today's game they both would have still been heads above the rest of the talent...thanks Cawz.

    That's what I was thinking too. The use of the back up and most goaltenders only playing in 40 - 50 games a year will make that record as close to impossible to break as they come. I still can't believe I didn't know about it! :shakehead :banghead:

    The same goes for Cy Youngs 511 wins...nobody will ever get close because they don't pitch as many games a season anymore and the use of relief pitchers takes some of the win opportunities (through come backs) away as well. It will take someone a 20 - 25 yr. career at 20+ wins a season to break that...staggering when you think about it.

    So...this has been largely hockey based...for obvious reasons but I expected some sort of arguement from someone about another sports record. Is there anything in Football or Basketball that compare to any of these records? I know very little about both sports.

    ...or is it that they don't want to get roasted because everyone (myself included) is so hockey biasd?? ;) :dunno:
     
  15. I'm impressed!
     
  16. Cawz

    Cawz Registered User

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    Where is that posted? Thats incredable.

    For the discussion about weather records can be broken, seeing what Kobe did vs the Raptors this year, I dont think any record is impossible to break. Unlikely, but not impossible.
     
  17. KariyaIsGod*

    KariyaIsGod* Guest

    What does Gretzky have to do really? He scored 91 points suffering from excruciating arthritis in his back at the age of 38 playing alongside a washed up Adam Graves and Niklas frieken Sundstrom in the heart of the dead puck era.

    Really?

    What does he need to do to disspell these silly claims that he would not have been as dominant now even transplanted, let alone with all the advantages today's players have?

    As for records, what about Jerry Rice's single season touchdown reception mark of 22... Most impressive of all, he did it during a lockout shortened season which emans he scored 22 touchdowns recieving in 12 games... :eek:
     
  18. Here's the link.
     
  19. Waterboy

    Waterboy Registered User

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    Make that two of us...unbelieveable.

    I'm not suggesting he wouldn't have been as dominant (especially after the season by season breakdown from Cawz)...all I said was that I find it hard to believe. Then again, when I look at his stats now, its hard to believe I watched it happen, those numbers are mindboggling when you look at the top scorers today.

    As for Jerry's reception record it wouldn't be as great if not for the shortened season...that is what, IMO, truely makes it so impressive. Also makes you have to ask the question...what numbers would he have set in a full season? 30 - 35 maybe even 40?
     
  20. Hockey Outsider

    Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Joe Malone's 44 goals in 22 games will never be beat. This was partially a product of his era (the NHL in 1918 was about as high-scoring as the 1980's, and top players got around 50 minutes of ice time per game). It was still a dominant performance: only three other player scored more than 20 goals and Cy Denneny was second with a distant 36. I can't see this ever being topped, unless the NHL starts averaging 15-20 goals per game.
     
  21. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    When I look at which records are breakable, I look at who has come close. Hull came within six of breaking Gretzky's single-season goal record. Neely scored 50 goals in 44 games, despite serious damage to his knees/thighs. Heatley's not the one to do it. I don't know if Ovechkin will take a run at those, either. He doesn't see and think the game as well as Wayne did. Lemieux had roughly the same point-per-game pace in 1992-93 that Wayne did in 1985-86. But nobody's come close to Gretzky's career records.

    The Hall record is the most difficult. In their 40th anniversary special about 12 years ago, SI tabbed that one as the most unbreakable in sports. Just think about it for a second. For a goalie to break it, he would have to play every game for more than six straight seasons. When was the last time a goalie played every game in A season. Remember the hubbub when Grant Fuhr played 76 straight for the Blues in 1995-96? (He wound up playing 79).

    Gretzky shreds the NHL in any era. Today's NHL, he has around 175 points per season. Might not hit 215 points, but 200 points wouldn't be out of the question. He was a second-team all-star in his second-to-last season. (And the top scorer after the Olympic break, even though the Rangers that year were a disaster). Gretzky's the smartest player to ever play the game, and he had a work ethic and commitment to improvement to match. In the end, that's what determines a player's success in the NHL.
     
  22. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

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    To me, the record that`s most impressive is Gretzky`s 51 game point scoring streak. With single season records, if you have a bad game you can make up for it next game, but with this one all it takes it one bad game and you`re back to zero. Doesn`t matter how many points you score in the other games, all it takes is one pointless game to ruin it.

    Hall`s record is obviously unbreakable, but to me a great record should involve something more than simply suiting up.

    I wouldn`t call it unbreakable, because when the planets are aligned properly anything can happen in one game, but it`s very impressive that Darryl Sittler`s 10 points in a game has lasted for 30 years. Especially when you consider that it survived the high-scoring 80s, not to mention the entire careers of Gretzky and Lemieux.
     
  23. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    One other thing that makes Sittler's 10-point game more impressive: no player has ever had nine points in an NHL game.
     
  24. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    I agree, the 10 point game will likely never be duplicated. If Gretzky couldn't pull it off, I really can't see anyone else doing it.
     
  25. Czech Your Math

    Czech Your Math Registered User

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    Gretzky's single-season assist and career points/assist records will be very difficult to top. Some other records will be virtually impossible to beat due to rule changes or very drastic changes in the game since the records were set.

    As far as other sports, Wilt Chamberlain has some records that won't be broken anytime soon, and they have been held for 35-45 years:

    - 100 points in an NBA game could be broken, but unlikely without a) overtime(s) and/or b) three points shots which didn't exist at that time.
    - 60 or more points in a game 32 times, more than all other NBA players combined (26 times, 5 of those by Jordan). 50 or more points in a regular season game 118 times (Jordan 31 times).
    - In a single season: Scored 50 or more points 45 times (30 times in another season), including seven consecutive games. Scored 40 or more points 63 times (52 times in another season), including 14 consecutive games. Scored 30 or more points for 65 consecutive games.
    - 55 rebounds in a game. 41 rebounds in an NBA finals game.
    - Only double-triple-double in NBA history (22 points, 25 rebounds and 21 assists).
    - Only quadruple double-double in NBA history (78 points, 43 rebounds)... can I get fried onions and extra tomatoes on that?
    - Longest continuous streak of triple-doubles with nine straight in 1968.
    - Leading the league (in different seasons) in points, rebounds, and assists.
    - Averaging 50.4 point per game in a season (also holds second with 44.8 ppg, and third with 38.4, fourth is 38.3 by Elgin Baylor).
    - Averaging 25+ rebounds per game, which he did twice (2,000 rebounds in season).
    - Field goal percentage of 72.7% in a season (holds second with 68.3%).
    - Made 35 straight field goals over a four game span including 18/18 in one game.
    - In 1962, he averaged 48.5 minutes per game. His 3,882 minutes played out of the team's possible 3890 left an average of six seconds rest per game. Holds the top five marks in minutes played in a season and the top seven marks in minutes-per-game in a season.
    - Rookie records of 37.6 points and 27.0 rebounds per game.
    - Led NBA in rebounding 11 seasons.
    - Led NBA in scoring seven consecutive seasons, and averaged ~39.6 ppg during those seven seasons. Consider that no other player has ever averaged 39 points in a single season.

    Some other notes on Wilt the Stilt:
    - Never fouled out of a game in his 14 years in the NBA.
    - His number 13 was retired by five different teams (three NBA): Golden State Warriors, Harlem Globetrotters, Los Angeles Lakers, Philadelphia 76ers, U. Kansas.
    - Many sportswriters attest that Chamberlain would have had several if not many quadruple-doubles, and may have averaged a triple-double (points, rebounds, blocks) over his career; but since he played in an era during which statistics on blocks and steals were not officially recorded, this remains speculation.
    - I'm just guessing that the bolded part would be a national high school record: "scored 90 points, including 60 points in a 10-minute span, against Roxborough High School." Without three point shots, that would be three baskets a minute for 10 minutes.
    - "In his prime, Wilt was so dominant that the NBA felt compelled to change several rules to thwart him, creating an offensive goaltending rule and by outlawing the inbound pass over the backboard, the dunk from the foul line in a free-throw attempt, and the alley oop. They also widened the lane in an attempt to slow his progress down."
    - In 1979, at UCLA's practice courts, he was playing with 4 Lakers in a pickup game, including 20-year-old Magic Johnson. Johnson called goaltending on Chamberlain, who then said: "There will be no more lay-ups in this game." He went on to block every lay-up attempt in the game. This was recounted after Wilt's death by coach Larry Brown, who was then coaching UCLA.
    - While an ABA coach, he once came on the court to find his players complaining that the ball was stuck near the 24-second clock and saying that they needed a ladder to get the ball. He said, "put the money on the floor", took off his dress shoes, jumped up and knocked the ball loose from the clock, 12 feet off the floor above the backboard.
    - Ran the 100-yard dash in 10.9 seconds, high jumped 6 feet 6 inches, ran the 440 in 49.0 seconds, ran the 880 in 1:58.3, threw the shotput 53 feet 4 inches, and long jumped 22 feet while still a high school student.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2006

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