Discussion in 'Philadelphia Flyers' started by phil162888, Dec 29, 2018.
It's a pretty well known narrative.
Hedman, wasn't a top defenseman until 23, #2 pick
EK, breakout season was 21, but he's been inconsistent in terms of two way play his whole career
Doughty, arrived by 20, #2 in the draft
Seth Jones arrived at 20, #4 pick
Trouba's breakout year was 21, #9 pick
Pietrangelo arrived at 21, #4 pick
Hamilton, arrived at 20, breakout at 23, #9
Suter, 21 year old rookie, breakout year at 25, #7
Subban, breakout year was 23,
Slavin, arrived at 21 but has flatlined and not taken the next step up
Klingberg, rookie at 22
Josi didn't arrive until 23, improved to 26
Ghost, breakout year at 24 (regressed at 25)
Giordano, 25 year old rookie, arrived at 26
Keith, breakout year at 24
Turris, Johansen, Smith, Forsberg, Arvidsson, Fiala would be my top 6.
I think Sissons+1st would be a huge return for Simmonds. Sissons is a strong defensive player and he might have some offensive upside. Fills the perceived need at C.
Couldnt agree more.
I'm not going to waste my time going through this point by point because this is typical "deadheadism" where you just post a bunch of randomly selected facts without context. But to take one example, Hedman played regularly at age 19 with a +2.5 CorsiRel. At age 20 he led his team in minutes played, was second in scoring among defenseman with a 53.8% Corsi +2.7 Rel. Ergo, he was the best defenseman on a 103-point team at age 20. It didn't take him until age 23 to break out.
That's a lot better Draft +2 season than many/most forward No. 2 overalls, including Landeskog, Barkov, Reinhart, JVR, Patrick. Only Laine, Seguin and maybe Eichel (not really) are recent No. 2s who were better at this age.
You're looking only at offense, these are DEFENSEMEN.
A defenseman who only contributes on offense is not a top player.
That's the difference between rookie Ghost and last year's Ghost.
Top ten picks tend to arrive faster, that's WHY they get picked that high, they're perceived as NHL ready.
Players like Sanheim were known to be late bloomers, and Myers of course, was undrafted.
Provorov played 24 minutes on a 98 point team last year and was a leader in ES points by defensemen, has he "broken out" yet?
I'd say he's still a year or two away from the player he'll become when he integrates all aspects of his game into consistent play.
In two years, with Provorov (23), Ghost (27), Sanheim (24), Myers (23), these four could be a core group like Nashville.
With Hagg (25), Friedman (25), Morin (25) as your 3rd pair guys. Maybe Gudas (30) as the "veteran" if he's extended.
But they need some seasoning, and until they're ready, I don't see this as a serious playoff contender.
Huh? He's a 2nd overall pick, he needs to play better.
I'm not looking only at offense, you are. There's no other way to come to the conclusion that Victor Hedman at age 20 is not a bonafide No. 1 defensemen, unless you're being intellectually dishonest, which is par for the course. There's a dozen other misleading or ridiculous statements in your post, like criticizing Karlsson's two-way game.
Using Provorov as an example that proves defensemen develop slowly is patently ridiculous. It took him about two weeks of NHL time to become the team's top defenseman, and he was great in his second year. He wasn't even a top 5 pick. Is he at his absolute peak? Of course not. But neither are 95% of forwards at 22. This is another standard tactic of yours known as "moving the goalposts."
Sanheim hasn't developed slowly either, he's a No. 17 pick and well ahead of half of the guys drafted before him.
Little harsh on Patrick I think? Considering how Voracek holds the puck during their shifts, and how they appear to have little chemistry, it would be difficult to be noticed aside from his D-zone play. In that sense, Patrick has played well. He is almost too conservative in certain aspects of his game but comparisons to Couturier's development, as brought up by some, appears to be pretty spot on.
Couturier was an effective NHL center immediately. Don’t think that’s true of Patrick about 1.5 seasons in. Couturier also didn’t play with 1st line wingers.
Kinda funny that Hextall booted Schenn out the door and drafted another Schenn.
It's true that Couts was further along at this point of their respective careers, but I don't think that's a slight on Patrick really. Obviously, Patrick should produce more but if he just doesn't have chemistry with Voracek, it is what it is you know? Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing Lindblom/Patrick/Konecny to see if those guys can play together.
Good call on Schenn/Patrick.
What would interest the Flyers from the Oilers for Jakub Voracek?
Only complication is that we'd have to send back a fair amount of cap (don't worry, not Lucic), or get you to retain.
I don't think the Flyers and Oilers make good trade partners.
Voracek is a good player still in his prime and if they move him it would be for overpayment and/or to get a tad younger.
Would you consider Voracek for Hopkins straight up?
I can haz Chiarelli's job now?
I might consider it with retention to make the contracts equal (2.25 million retained) or if you took Spooner back.
Voracek + Weise for Nuge + Spooner
If we retained that much it basically means we are paying over 8 mill a year for RNH.
Yeah that's true. So:
Voracek + Weise for Nuge + Spooner?
Edit: I just saw Weise's contract. Any cheap 4th liner would work.
Since it seemed like the Flyers were in on Nylander at the final hour, what does it take to get him now? His value has to be the same or even a little less.
Simmonds + Gudas + I don’t know. I would think they’d want a dman bc they could get a good one if it was straight up. Myers would be an over payment add. I don’t think Morin is enough and I want to keep him anyway.
Cap hit aside, I don't see where Spooner would fit here but I would consider it if they could find a 3rd team to take him.
Retention is a no go on Voracek's contract. Too much term left.
Couturier was effective defensively, but his offense took some time.
Couturier had a rough 2nd season in the lockout shortened year.
I think Couturier was on par with Patrick offensively. Similar EV production. He also didn’t play with 1st liners and faced some tough opposition.
By his 3rd season, Couturier was a strong 5v5 player—just considering points.
One of the more amusing observations I've had recently is that Patrick and Simmonds actually have pretty decent chemistry, and the latter is on his way out.
Patrick is pretty solid defensively, but I think his progress has been ******ed by injuries, he hasn't filled out that frame yet, for one thing.
Ideally, they put Lindblom back with him and find him a fast RW, right now he's playing with two stiffs who can't finish (Laughton, Simmonds).
If they do, I haven't seen it.
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