Sidney Crosby surpassing Alexander Ovechkin in career points watch (UPD: Ovechkin ahead by 6)

[shtorm2005]

No you don't because we can compare relative to peers and adjust numbers according to era.

Well, according adjusted stats, Jagr has 1.2 per game and Ovy is 1.28. I don't understand why that poster puts Jagr on different level than Ovy. But, yeah, Gretzky and Lemieux have better adjusted point per game ratio (1.66 and 1.68)

 

[Sam Spade]

This thread is only 13 days old

You are correct but at the beginning of last season there was one, I thought this was just a continuation of it.

 

[vippe]

Really? I do try to be objective and I bet it's no secret that I'm a big OV fan. My take on his game, compared to his peak years, is that he's not holding on to the puck as much. Which in turn has caused changes in his game. One of the main one being his playmaking. His adaption has been remarkable though.

I've never heard anyone challenge this analysis before you. I'd like to hear your reasoning for his decrease in assists.

I on the other hand has never heard anyone say he's regressed as a playmaker. Outside of the obvious recurring posters who moves the goal posts regarding Ov when ever it fits them.

You are right that his game has changed, how that affected his playmaking abilities in a negative way I dont see. If we are strictly comparing to the years 07-10 as you mentioned earlier. He's not as explosive and less dynamic, his skating is still good and while his top speed is still up there but he takes more time to get there. On the flipside he's a much better defensive player today than in those years.

How I explain his less amount in the A-column? Mixture of things, those years the Caps were a glass canon, system fixtured on high octane offensive over a complete game which in itself led to more production not only by OV but for all other players. Ovechkin, Backstrom, Green, Semin, Laich, Fleischmann all had career years those seasons. Heck Green, Semin and Backstrom all put up 30+ goal seasons those years. Being a volume shooter gets you assists, he shot more those years than most other years.

Looking at his best playmaking you would probably see most of them in the years after 09-10, there's a prime example just a few days ago against Detroit you would rarely see something like that in 07-10.

So in essence, I agree that he's a changed player and that he adapted well, I do not agree that he is a lesser playmaker today.

 

[Plural]

I on the other hand has never heard anyone say he's regressed as a playmaker. Outside of the obvious recurring posters who moves the goal posts regarding Ov when ever it fits them.

You are right that his game has changed, how that affected his playmaking abilities in a negative way I dont see. If we are strictly comparing to the years 07-10 as you mentioned earlier. He's not as explosive and less dynamic, his skating is still good and while his top speed is still up there but he takes more time to get there. On the flipside he's a much better defensive player today than in those years.

How I explain his less amount in the A-column? Mixture of things, those years the Caps were a glass canon, system fixtured on high octane offensive over a complete game which in itself led to more production not only by OV but for all other players. Ovechkin, Backstrom, Green, Semin, Laich, Fleischmann all had career years those seasons. Heck Green, Semin and Backstrom all put up 30+ goal seasons those years. Being a volume shooter gets you assists, he shot more those years than most other years.

Looking at his best playmaking you would probably see most of them in the years after 09-10, there's a prime example just a few days ago against Detroit you would rarely see something like that in 07-10.

So in essence, I agree that he's a changed player and that he adapted well, I do not agree that he is a lesser playmaker today.

Thanks for the reply. There is a lot that I agree with but bit more stuff I disagree with.

There's been a clear change in OV's game compared to his peak years and I remain the opinion that the biggest change has been his play with the puck. I challenge you to find 5 Caps fans who disagree with that. He's adapted his game remarkably and still has that above average playmaking ability. But he's not the same player he used to be. I base this on the games I've watched him and the analysis from Caps fans. There's no certain way of proving either of us right or wrong. I know for a fact, that the vast majority of Ovechkin/Caps fan would agree with me and not with you. However, it doesn't mean that you're 100% wrong. It just means that the majority of people who have watched OV's game during his career have similar feelings about the transformation as I do.

 

[Lomez]

Simple eye test, FWIW: I think for the last month Sid has been playing as well as I've ever seen him play. He's pretty good!

 

[Troubadour]

I challenge you to find 5 Caps fans who disagree with that.

 

[vippe]

Thanks for the reply. There is a lot that I agree with but bit more stuff I disagree with.

There's been a clear change in OV's game compared to his peak years and I remain the opinion that the biggest change has been his play with the puck. I challenge you to find 5 Caps fans who disagree with that. He's adapted his game remarkably and still has that above average playmaking ability. But he's not the same player he used to be. I base this on the games I've watched him and the analysis from Caps fans. There's no certain way of proving either of us right or wrong. I know for a fact, that the vast majority of Ovechkin/Caps fan would agree with me and not with you. However, it doesn't mean that you're 100% wrong. It just means that the majority of people who have watched OV's game during his career have similar feelings about the transformation as I do.

Being a Caps fan for the entire Ovechkin lifespan I've seen all of Ovechkin stages a good amount to make my own assessment of how he's developed as a player. I would also avoid saying things are facts when talking about subjective things.

You get back to his ability to hold the puck, I never touched that and I dont contest that. I'm talking about his passing playmaking and passing ability as a whole (which was what the entire discussion started around was it not?) and while his ability to hold the puck might have changed for the worse, that alone is not what makes him good at passing the puck. His lesser A column as I mentioned before is a product of many things among them different system, lesser volumeshooting and that's he's more of a two way player than before. Not because of his playmaking ability diminishing.

But whatever really, we wont change each others mind and I think this very thread is a weird one, why is it even a thing? Two moving targets etc etc..

 

[Varan]

he passed him no?

 

[JasonRoseEh]

I personally think he is the most talented player to have played thus far with maybe McDavid coming behind him

Its all personal opinion though - and its BEST not GREATEST, Gretzky is the GREATEST still but I think Crosby is the BEST

Then you'd be wrong and teammates of his attest to this.

 

[shtorm2005]

he passed him no?

 

[JasonRoseEh]

What a weird post.

Sure Ovechkin is 12th in assists since the lockout as there only a handful of topline guys that have played all 14th seasons.

Crosby being 200th in defense must include Dmen right?

Why is this a weird post? There's a distinct conversation in this thread where some people flat out say Ovechkin is a poor passer, this objectively demonstrates he is not along with anyone with eyes who has watched him throughout his career.

As for the 200th best defensive player I don't know what that's about nor do I know where the stats are to back that up.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Comparing him to 07-10 OV, I think the biggest difference is his lack of puck control. His ability to make a pass is somewhat similar now. But he's not handling the puck nearly as much as he did back at his peak.

His ability to be a strong passer has not diminished whatsoever, if anything he's a better passer now than he was in his first few years.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Simple eye test, FWIW: I think for the last month Sid has been playing as well as I've ever seen him play. He's pretty good!

Without question and since Ovi's little downturn, he's been the best player on the ice and utterly dominated the Bruins physically and on the scoresheet. Both players still elite, full stop.

 

[wetcoast]

Why is this a weird post? There's a distinct conversation in this thread where some people flat out say Ovechkin is a poor passer, this objectively demonstrates he is not along with anyone with eyes.

As for the 200th best defensive player I don't know what that's about nor do I know where the stats are to back that up.

That's why it's weird, he is deliberately comparing 2 absolutely different things in totally different ways as well.

Ovechkin is 12th is assists mainly by being one of the few guys who played alot in the last 14 seasons.

Lots of guys that are lower than 12th in assists over that time are clearly better passers or playmakers.

It would be like a Crosby supporter saying that Crosby is second in goals over that time period and Ovechkin is the (pick your imaginary number) best hitter in the last 14 years.

 

[Varan]

This is obviously fan fiction and not based in reality what so ever.

It's literally true. Back then he would take the puck out of the d-zone and blast down the ice at crazy speeds because he could back then. The puck was always near him no matter what. He had much better hands back then which was complimented with his speed and physicality , which is why he was so great. Nowadays he just dumps it in from centre ice and is a triggerman. Before he was the driving force.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

It's not like no one saw this coming lol.

 

[The Shovel Penguin]

It's not like no one saw this coming lol.

This is the part where you're supposed to tout that your generational apple is the better fruit. I'm supposed to come up with a counter argument that our generational orange is superior.

At some point, some fan of a banana that has racked up Selkes will then chime in to tell us we are both wrong.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

This is the part where you're supposed to tout that your generational apple is the better fruit. I'm supposed to come up with a counter argument that our generational orange is superior.

At some point, some fan of a banana that has racked up Selkes will then chime in to tell us we are both wrong.

And then the mango fans who have seen the mango win back-to-back scoring titles at the age of 21 will say that apple, banana and orange fans are wrong.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

That's why it's weird, he is deliberately comparing 2 absolutely different things in totally different ways as well.

Ovechkin is 12th is assists mainly by being one of the few guys who played alot in the last 14 seasons.

Lots of guys that are lower than 12th in assists over that time are clearly better passers or playmakers.

It would be like a Crosby supporter saying that Crosby is second in goals over that time period and Ovechkin is the (pick your imaginary number) best hitter in the last 14 years.

Well it was in relation to another post that mentioned Ovi is as average of a passer as Crosby is a defender so using that as the context it makes sense.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

It's literally true. Back then he would take the puck out of the d-zone and blast down the ice at crazy speeds because he could back then. The puck was always near him no matter what. He had much better hands back then which was complimented with his speed and physicality , which is why he was so great. Nowadays he just dumps it in from centre ice and is a triggerman. Before he was the driving force.

You don't watch Ovechkin play, clearly.

 

[wetcoast]

Well it was in relation to another post that mentioned Ovi is as average of a passer as Crosby is a defender so using that as the context it makes sense.

Actually no it doesn't make sense and it was extremely misleading comparing the 2 players in those 2 areas.

There is a huge difference in a guy getting the 12th most assists over a 14 year period and being a good playmaker season in season out.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Actually no it doesn't make sense and it was extremely misleading comparing the 2 players in those 2 areas.

There is a huge difference in a guy getting the 12th most assists over a 14 year period and being a good playmaker season in season out.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

SMH yes the post makes sense in the context I gave you, my god. I'm not saying the original post held merit only giving you the context of why the response post was made.

If you'd like my opinion then I'll tell you: Ovechkin is a good playmaker and no one in here is making a case for him being comparable to Crosby as a passer, only that he is a good passer and the numbers support this.

 

[wetcoast]

SMH yes the post makes sense in the context I gave you, my god. I'm not saying the original post held merit only giving you the context of why the response post was made.

If you'd like my opinion then I'll tell you: Ovechkin is a good playmaker and no one in here is making a case for him being comparable to Crosby as a passer, only that he is a good passer and the numbers support this.

The quote that was weird was the one claiming that Ovechkin is a better passer than Crosby defensive player by alot which was really disingenuous at best or grossly misleading given the metric given.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The quote that was weird was the one claiming that Ovechkin is a better passer than Crosby defensive player by alot which was really disingenuous at best or grossly misleading given the metric given.

Uh nope.

But if you want apples to apples, Ovechkin is 11th in assists since the lockout among all players.

Sidney Crosby is 596th in penalty kill minutes since the lockout among all players.

 

[wetcoast]

Uh nope.

Ovechkin is 12th in assists since the lockout.

Crosby isn't top 200 in defense.

Well since you are here, maybe you can clear up what you are trying to say here then?

Obviously Ovechkin isn't the 12th best playmaker to play in the NHL from 2005 to 2018, right?

And what is the reference to Crosby about anyways, you have claimed in other posts that he is very average at best defensively.

He has been 7 times since 2009-2010 been in the selke voting only missed in his 41 and 22 games played seasons since then.

I'm pretty sure he ranks well better than 200th since then without even looking.