Sidney Crosby / Bobby Clarke

[Reds4Life]

I'll take Crosby any day.
Much better offensive player, and no slouch defensively either, although Clarke is obviously much better in this area.

Another plus for Crosby is, that unlike Clarke, he is not PoS player that cheapshots opponents. Crosby has not even reached his full prime yet.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Don't know exactly how long you've spent around this board, but the regulars seem pretty familiar with each other, how long they've been following hockey, and where their opinions lie with respect to the bulk of the league's star players of past and present.

Well, to be honest, I think more than 2% of those on this board are over 40, and I very much doubt they would "one sidedly" pick Clarke over Crosby in drafting a team.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Well, to be honest, I think more than 2% of those on this board are over 40, and I very much doubt they would "one sidedly" pick Clarke over Crosby in drafting a team.

Admittedly, I was looking at Clarke's best years vs Crosby's best. Not thinking in terms of what they both did by age 23.

Best vs Best = Clarke, no question in my mind.
Best by age 23 = Crosby.

I suppose it is an unfair question to ask about drafting until Crosby gets a few more years in.

 

[AugustBurnsRed*]

Over two seasons (74/75 and 75/76) Clarke was on ice for 12 even strength goals against. He also had 89 assists those two years and 119 and 116 points respectively. I know there's a lot of hate for Clarke, but based on what Crosby has done so far, I don't see how anyone could pick him

because Crosby still has better offensive totals over a smaller scoring era?

 

[BraveCanadian]

because Crosby still has better offensive totals over a smaller scoring era?

Looking at their best, I would easily pick Clarke at this point in Crosby's career.

Crosby doesn't run away from Clarke offensively over their best three seasons. If you look at point totals adjusted for league average scoring to get a real rough idea Crosby scored 10-20 points more a season for a total of 44 adjusted points over their three best seasons.

However, Clarke does run away from Crosby defensively at the same time. Crosby allowed roughly 100 more even strength/sh goals against than Clarke to get those 44 more adjusted points.

So.. Clarke, easily, at this point. If Crosby can come back and manage to put up a few more big seasons then obviously I would be changing my opinion.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Assuming Crosby isn't done and goes 1000+ games his totals will dwarf Clarke's in a lower scoring era.

 

[danincanada]

Crosby for sure. Clarke would just be another dirty two-way centre if he played today, similar to Mike Richards IMO. He didn't have the talent or skills to be an elite player like Crosby in todays game.

Clarke obviously felt he couldn't stop team Russia with a healthy Kharlamov if he had to resort to this so to me that says something about how good Kharlamov and that Russian team were. Crosby faces the best Russians and other top players from all over the world in the current NHL and he's still considered the best player by most. You can't say the same for Clarke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOMJsJhHlyM

As a Canadian I don't think we should celebrate that '72 series like we do knowing this happened. Thanks Bobby, you embarrassed the country and put a huge black mark on a great series. I'd call him a weasel but that probably shows too much disrespect to those little fury creatures, lol. What a disgrace.

 

[Sideline]

Bobby Clarke invented clutch and grab hockey. He would be the forward equivalent of Derian Hatcher in today's NHL.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Crosby for sure. Clarke would just be another dirty two-way centre if he played today, similar to Mike Richards IMO. He didn't have the talent or skills to be an elite player like Crosby in todays game.

Clarke obviously felt he couldn't stop team Russia with a healthy Kharlamov if he had to resort to this so to me that says something about how good Kharlamov and that Russian team were. Crosby faces the best Russians and other top players from all over the world in the current NHL and he's still considered the best player by most. You can't say the same for Clarke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOMJsJhHlyM

As a Canadian I don't think we should celebrate that '72 series like we do knowing this happened. Thanks Bobby, you embarrassed the country and put a huge black mark on a great series. I'd call him a weasel but that probably shows too much disrespect to those little fury creatures, lol. What a disgrace.

Geeze, stop whining. Several players from the team talked about the pressure they were under and how much of a war that series was. It may have been Espo who said that he at times felt like he would literally kill the Russians to win. One has to look at the social setting of the time and at the mentality of the NHL in that age. Clarke would have done anything to anyone to win and he was in good company because that's how Howe, Richard, Lindsay and Co. were as well.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bobby Clarke invented clutch and grab hockey. He would be the forward equivalent of Derian Hatcher in today's NHL.

Clutch and grab was a major part of the strategy of the Maple Leafs dynasty in the 1940s, and it was around long before that as their coach Hap Day used it as a player in the 1920s.

Ching Johnson, who played in the late 20s and early 30s and was widely considered one of the best defensemen of his time was nicknamed "the Holding Corporation" (by pnep?) because of his style of play.

 

[danincanada]

Geeze, stop whining. Several players from the team talked about the pressure they were under and how much of a war that series was. It may have been Espo who said that he at times felt like he would literally kill the Russians to win. One has to look at the social setting of the time and at the mentality of the NHL in that age. Clarke would have done anything to anyone to win and he was in good company because that's how Howe, Richard, Lindsay and Co. were as well.

That's a weak cop out. I'm sure the Russians felt the same way but we never saw them do that to Orr or any other Canadian great. Clarke did what he did and there was no excuse for it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That's a weak cop out. I'm sure the Russians felt the same way but we never saw them do that to Orr or any other Canadian great. Clarke did what he did and there was no excuse for it.

Russians hated the Czechoslovakians more than they hated the Canadians, and they did treat the Czech's best player, Vladimir Martinec, just like the Canadians treated Valeri Kharlamov.

Didn't Boris Mikhailov get accused of trying to kick a Canadian player once? I forget the exact story.

And yes, Clarke was a dirtbag (even more for the Pospisil cheapshot during a "friendly" than the Kharlamov shot IMO), but he wasn't exactly unique in treating international hockey like a war.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Bobby Clarke invented clutch and grab hockey. He would be the forward equivalent of Derian Hatcher in today's NHL.

How could he when Hatcher doesn't even play in today's NHL?

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

That's a weak cop out. I'm sure the Russians felt the same way but we never saw them do that to Orr or any other Canadian great. Clarke did what he did and there was no excuse for it.

You're naive if you think the Russians didn't play "dirty" as well, on and off the ice. They may have been a bit sneakier about it.

Don't forget the Canadians went to Moscow playing in and against a country whose official media nearly constantly attacked them as capitalist profiteers, soulless mercenaries etc. and their home country and way of life as wrong and evil.

 

[danincanada]

You're naive if you think the Russians didn't play "dirty" as well, on and off the ice. They may have been a bit sneakier about it.

Don't forget the Canadians went to Moscow playing in and against a country whose official media nearly constantly attacked them as capitalist profiteers, soulless mercenaries etc. and their home country and way of life as wrong and evil.

I didin't say the Russians were angels - it wasn't on the same level as what Clarke did though. Imagine if they did that to Orr in '76? How would you feel then? You are really just trying to look for excuses for it and there are none. It was a disgraceful act by the ultimate cheapshot artist.

I'm sure the North American media acted like those "Commie Russians" were our friends and allies throughout the series. We essentially said the same things about them so what is your point?

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I'm sure the North American media acted like those "Commie Russians" were our friends and allies throughout the series. We essentially said the same things about them so what is your point?

That "we" were in the right and "they" were in the wrong. I won't hold it against Clarke if he went slightly O.T.T. in those games.

 

[danincanada]

That "we" were in the right and "they" were in the wrong. I won't hold it against Clarke if he went slightly O.T.T. in those games.

Wow, what a silly argument. So if it were the 40's and the fascist Germans had a Nazi hockey team would it have been okay for Shore to break a guys neck or cut his throat intentionally with his skate?

No matter what the political and social undertones were at the time it was still only a hockey series between two nations and a certain level of sportsmanship should (and usually did) still exist. If everyone thought like you (and Clarke) then why not just turn the whole thing into an ankle chopping event and see who is the last guy standing? Fortunately the Russians didn't stoop as low as Clarke.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Fortunately the Russians didn't stoop as low as Clarke.

They did against Czechoslovakia.

 

[gifted88]

Yeah, Crosby isn't even in his prime yet. We may not even have seen the best this kid has to offer. I'd take Crosby.

 

[danincanada]

They did against Czechoslovakia.

If they did then they were in the wrong in that case just like Clarke was wrong in this one.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Wow, what a silly argument. So if it were the 40's and the fascist Germans had a Nazi hockey team would it have been okay for Shore to break a guys neck or cut his throat intentionally with his skate?

No matter what the political and social undertones were at the time it was still only a hockey series between two nations and a certain level of sportsmanship should (and usually did) still exist. If everyone thought like you (and Clarke) then why not just turn the whole thing into an ankle chopping event and see who is the last guy standing? Fortunately the Russians didn't stoop as low as Clarke.

Don't make it more dramatic than it was. It was a slash, a mean slash no doubt, but this is hockey we are talking about. Doing mean things for the sake of victory has a lot of tradition in the sport. Adam Graves broke his countryman Mario Lemieux's hand with a slash in 1992 and he just did it to win a playoff series.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If they did then they were in the wrong in that case just like Clarke was wrong in this one.

As long as we realize that Clarke wasn't exactly the only one playing that way, fine. He was certainlyone of the biggest dirtbags to ever hold a hockey stick.

 

[danincanada]

Don't make it more dramatic than it was. It was a slash, a mean slash no doubt, but this is hockey we are talking about. Doing mean things for the sake of victory has a lot of tradition in the sport. Adam Graves broke his countryman Mario Lemieux's hand with a slash in 1992 and he just did it to win a playoff series.

Sure, Graves slash was really bad too and looked almost as intentional as Clarke's. That doesn't make either right though and shouldn't be used to defend Clarke.

I wouldn't call cheap shots a tradition either. Sadly, there are some players who take this approach in order to try to win. Luckily most hockey players don't stoop that low and when they do we should realize it doesn't belong in the game and they should be punished severley, not make excuses for them.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Wow, what a silly argument. So if it were the 40's and the fascist Germans had a Nazi hockey team would it have been okay for Shore to break a guys neck or cut his throat intentionally with his skate?

No matter what the political and social undertones were at the time it was still only a hockey series between two nations and a certain level of sportsmanship should (and usually did) still exist. If everyone thought like you (and Clarke) then why not just turn the whole thing into an ankle chopping event and see who is the last guy standing? Fortunately the Russians didn't stoop as low as Clarke.

Oooo boy were you not around back.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Don't make it more dramatic than it was. It was a slash, a mean slash no doubt, but this is hockey we are talking about. Doing mean things for the sake of victory has a lot of tradition in the sport. Adam Graves broke his countryman Mario Lemieux's hand with a slash in 1992 and he just did it to win a playoff series.

The More You Know:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2bHJj7avd4&p=FED817AF41C43286

That is not hockey. In this particular instance (buttend to the face of Pospisil) calling Clarke a POS is rather insulting to all P'sOS everywhere.

Tell me how many games Clarke would receive in todays game for that?

That was against Czechoslovakia...4 years after the Soviets drove tanks down the streets of Prague...if that even matters.