Should Winnipeg, and Quebec City be back in the NHL?

[OLYMPIA STADIUM]

Good, glad to hear it, because "fans" like you turn my stomach!

Go Ducks Go!

Well i am alot older than most of the people on this forum and like i said i prefer the hockey of the 1960s and 1970s.and i have lived in 2 original 6 cities in detroit and toronto.i did follow the old WHA back in the 1970s which included quebec, winnipeg and hartford(new england whalers)

 

[Willis]

I am not sure but I recall something in the globe and mail showing team revenue per game and comped tickets per game. It indicated that 5 of the 6 Canadian teams were in the top 10 and Ottawa was number 12.

I also recall something from Patrick Laforge saying that no Canadian teams recieved money from revenue sharing this year and there were 11 teams teams that did with all 11 being in the US. He also mentioned that the Oilers paid into revenue sharing.

 

[krudmonk]

No Atlanta is not a original 6 city. but the flames in atlanta are things that i recall from my younger days back in the 1970s.i still cant believe that the red wings beat atlanta in the 1978 playoffs.and i do have a couple of atlanta flames jerseys along side with winnipeg, hartford and quebec jerseys.

You were alive in the 70s? Why do you argue your points at a third grade level?

 

[LeafErikson]

I am not sure but I recall something in the globe and mail showing team revenue per game and comped tickets per game. It indicated that 5 of the 6 Canadian teams were in the top 10 and Ottawa was number 12.

I also recall something from Patrick Laforge saying that no Canadian teams recieved money from revenue sharing this year and there were 11 teams teams that did with all 11 being in the US. He also mentioned that the Oilers paid into revenue sharing.

Thank you, I remember reading that aswell. So if Canadian teams are paying into it, and not drawing, why is it not believable that there could be another two, or three Canadian teams in the league?

I think obviously the best market for Canada to draw from would be SW Ontario, but second, Winnipeg, and Quebec City would be a good second, and third option for Canadian expansion for the league.

 

[OLYMPIA STADIUM]

People have tried to pin you down here, and you've ignored them, so I'll ask directly:

What's the difference between Carolina and Tampa, and Atlanta?

I was a fan of quebec, winnipeg and hartford going back to there days in the WHA in the 1970s.and i was also a Atlanta Flames fan back in the 1970s.carolina should still be in hartford along with pheonix and colorado back in quebec and winnipeg but that will never happen unless someone else moves or there is a expansion to those cities. and as far as the atlanta flames they moved because of bad management. they were drawing at the omni.

 

[OLYMPIA STADIUM]

You were alive in the 70s? Why do you argue your points at a third grade level?

Yes i was around back in the 1970s.and like i said i am a fan of the NHL of the 1960s and 1970s.

 

[tiredman]

The reason I don't want to, is because I don't want to have to read through all the bs that has likely already been apart of that thread. And what I mean by BS, I mean the *****ing, and bickering that has already gone on in it, and likely consists of 90% of that thread.
If someone wants to be a part of this thread, and supply me with info that will prove me right, wrong, whatever, great. BTW, my reason for being here isn't to be right or wrong, but to get a better understanding of the bigger picture. I think that Winnipeg would do well back in the NHL, I think Quebec City deserves another shot at the NHL aswell, and I believe there should be atleast another team in SW Ontario.

Quebec always made well in the nhl. We had really good attendances even in the last years when the team was really mediocre. Marcel Aubut, ex-owner of the nords, wanted a new arena paid by the governments. It never happened. Then, he received a great offer for an american group that he couldn't refuse. Then, the team moved.

Nothing much happened since. We now have the remparts. The owners of the team, Patrick Roy and J.Tanguay (a millionaire who has a lot of sports team in quebec city) are filling their pockets with this team since they attact more than 10k persons each game. Some people, including me, thinks their gonna try, some day, to bring back a nhl team in quebec. Maybe that's only what we hope but It makes sense. Patrick Roy, born in Quebec city, already refused some offer from nhl teams.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

I'm pretty sure that's very inaccurate!

Look here, Forbes ranks Toronto 2nd at 280 mill. The lowest is Edmonton, at 27th, and 104 million.

In response to the above post and the previous post on Forbes' franchise values.

The Forbes data is not very useful IMHO. They didn't have access to any of the financials, arena deals, etc. when making these estimates.

On top of that, the Canadian dollar has appreciated about 20% since those estimates were made in 2004. So if you do want to use Forbes' 2004 data, you have to account for that.

A lot of people believe the Canadian smaller market franchise are in worse situation than they are due to recent history of troubles retaining players due to a record low dollar in 60 - 70 cent range. The fact is the Oilers ownership group is made up of many small investors and they refused to lose millions of dollars during the pre-lockout era, unlike many other franchises. Even through the low dollar period the team was basically breaking even with a payroll in the low USD 30 million range, although they could not hold on to top players to do so. The situation is much better now and I would expect all Canadian franchises to be in the top half or near the top half of the league in hockey related revenue this past season based on the info that has already been posted.

GHOST

 

[OLYMPIA STADIUM]

Quebec always made well in the nhl. We had really good attendances even in the last years when the team was really mediocre. Marcel Aubut, ex-owner of the nords, wanted a new arena paid by the governments. It never happened. Then, he received a great offer for an american group that he couldn't refuse. Then, the team moved.

Nothing much happened since. We now have the remparts. The owners of the team, Patrick Roy and J.Tanguay (a millionaire who has a lot of sports team in quebec city) are filling their pockets with this team since they attact more than 10k persons each game. Some people, including me, thinks their gonna try, some day, to bring back a nhl team in quebec. Maybe that's only what we hope but It makes sense. Patrick Roy, born in Quebec city, already refused some offer from nhl teams.

There was nothing like watching montreal play quebec back in the day. the NHL is alot worse without that.

 

[LeafErikson]

Quebec always made well in the nhl. We had really good attendances even in the last years when the team was really mediocre. Marcel Aubut, ex-owner of the nords, wanted a new arena paid by the governments. It never happened. Then, he received a great offer for an american group that he couldn't refuse. Then, the team moved.

Nothing much happened since. We now have the remparts. The owners of the team, Patrick Roy and J.Tanguay (a millionaire who has a lot of sports team in quebec city) are filling their pockets with this team since they attact more than 10k persons each game. Some people, including me, thinks their gonna try, some day, to bring back a nhl team in quebec. Maybe that's only what we hope but It makes sense. Patrick Roy, born in Quebec city, already refused some offer from nhl teams.

Maybe it'll take a man like Jim Basille (sorry Pens fans) or the Steelback Beer owner Frank D'Angelo, with their deep pockets, to walk into a situation like that, partner up with a guy like Roy, and get something done for the city.

 

[LeafErikson]

In response to the above post and the previous post on Forbes' franchise values.

The Forbes data is not very useful IMHO. They didn't have access to any of the financials, arena deals, etc. when making these estimates.

On top of that, the Canadian dollar has appreciated about 20% since those estimates were made in 2004. So if you do want to use Forbes' 2004 data, you have to account for that.

A lot of people believe the Canadian smaller market franchise are in worse situation than they are due to recent history of troubles retaining players due to a record low dollar in 60 - 70 cent range. The fact is the Oilers ownership group is made up of many small investors and they refused to lose millions of dollars during the pre-lockout era, unlike many other franchises. Even through the low dollar period the team was basically breaking even with a payroll in the low USD 30 million range, although they could not hold on to top players to do so. The situation is much better now and I would expect all Canadian franchises to be in the top half or near the top half of the league in hockey related revenue this past season based on the info that has already been posted.

GHOST

Oops

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Tampa is a bad example here my friend, they have done well! But, I don't understand why their payroll is apparently going down, that one's confusing.

By what measure? Announced attendance? The team announced a loss of 9 million this year.

GHOST

 

[Wetcoaster]

The two people in Winnipeg who would know the most about whether NHL hockey is workable in Winnipeg would be money man David Asper (Global TV) and hockey man Mark Chipman:

David Asper is one of the "Young Turks" McFadyen said he has talked to about the idea (bringing back the NHL). But yesterday Asper said he hasn't discussed the idea with McFadyen recently and said right now getting his proposed new stadium for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers built is his priority and he doesn't want to be "distracted" by thoughts of hockey.

"I'm one-million per cent focused on football," said Asper. Asper also said he doesn't think McFadyen's pledge is really new.

"This has all been said before including by the premier," said Asper.

He did say that the public sector has to be part of the process, noting the competition Winnipeg would be in for a team is huge.

"Kansas City just built a hockey rink for $200 million with no tenant," said Asper. "That's what we're competing against."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/story/3960882p-4573423c.html

So the money guy seems to get it. Winnipeg will have to compete and show it is a better franchise location than a number of other cities. That does not appear likely.

And from the same article here is Mark Chipman on the potential viability of an NHL franchise in Winnipeg:

And even more in question, says Chipman, is whether there is even a team affordable to buy.

"From an acquisition perspective I have to tell you I don't know right now if the amounts being bandied around are doable," he said.

He said an NHL franchise would cost at least US$180 million.

Chipman said he hasn't discussed the issue with McFadyen, and isn't one of the so-called "Young Turks" McFadyen said he plans to work with to bring the NHL back.

"I haven't been a part of those discussions, at least not with Mr. McFadyen," said Chipman.

So you have the person with the most recent experience who seems at best lukewarm to a successful NHL franchise in Winnipeg.

Oh and these are NOT quotes from years past. They are current as of May 8, 2007.

Here is what Chipman earlier had to say after the lockout and before the salary cap took yet another significant jump when interviewed by Ken Wiebe of the Winnipeg Sun in January 2006. And since then the salary cap is expected to take another big jump.

"People should understand now that if this were ever possible, it wouldn't be possible at the upper end of that salary range," said Chipman. "You're going to have a team that, at best, is at the mid-range or lower."

"What's starting to reveal itself now is that the economics of this new world order, so to speak, aren't that different. Players salaries have gone down very nominally and it's still a very expensive league to operate in. What they've done is level the playing field. But there are still lots of teams at or very close to the payrolls they were working with before the lockout."

In the "New NHL" as in the "Old NHL" Winnipeg does not work on so many levels. If the NHL BOG only looked at the fan support from Joe and Jane Sixpack, Winnipeg might be able to make a case but awarding an NHL franchise entails a great deal more than that.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

No kidding. There is a 650 post thread still on the front page describing why Winnipeg is not a good fit for the NHL. Dont get mad at everyone else because you are too lazy to read it.

In fairness, not all of the posts in that thread describe what you say. Talk about bias.

GHOST

 

[LeafErikson]

By what measure? Announced attendance? The team announced a loss of 9 million this year.

GHOST

Wow, I knew that they had reason for the budget coming down, but they lost that much? Ouch!

 

[MAROONSRoad]

The two people in Winnipeg who would know the most about whether NHL hockey is workable in Winnipeg would be money man David Asper (Global TV) and hockey man Mark Chipman:


http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/story/3960882p-4573423c.html

So the money guy seems to get it. Winnipeg will have to compete and show it is a better franchise location than a number of other cities. That does not appear likely.

And from the same article here is Mark Chipman on the potential viability of an NHL franchise in Winnipeg:


So you have the person with the most recent experience who seems at best lukewarm to a successful NHL franchise in Winnipeg.

Oh and these are NOT quotes from years past. They are current as of May 8, 2007.

Here is what Chipman earlier had to say after the lockout and before the salary cap took yet another significant jump when interviewed by Ken Wiebe of the Winnipeg Sun in January 2006. And since then the salary cap is expected to take another big jump.


In the "New NHL" as in the "Old NHL" Winnipeg does not work on so many levels. If the NHL BOG only looked at the fan support from Joe and Jane Sixpack, Winnipeg might be able to make a case but awarding an NHL franchise entails a great deal more than that.

You are cherry picking quotes without mentioning the context (a provincial election campaign promise where a politician was trying to align himself with the people in Winnipeg that are trying to obtain a team). Why not post the 10 minute interview with Asper on FAN590 done at around the time of the all star game which was much more positive or Richardson Financial's CEO recent positive letter last week to the Free Press? Or Gary Doer, the current Premier's recent statement that he's been working quietly behind the scenes with said group on the return of the NHL to Winnipeg. Or Chipman's spokesman's recent statement that they are in regular contact with the NHL on the issue, etc., etc., etc.

GHOST

 

[LeafErikson]

The two people in Winnipeg who would know the most about whether NHL hockey is workable in Winnipeg would be money man David Asper (Global TV) and hockey man Mark Chipman:


http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/story/3960882p-4573423c.html

So the money guy seems to get it. Winnipeg will have to compete and show it is a better franchise location than a number of other cities. That does not appear likely.

And from the same article here is Mark Chipman on the potential viability of an NHL franchise in Winnipeg:


So you have the person with the most recent experience who seems at best lukewarm to a successful NHL franchise in Winnipeg.

Oh and these are NOT quotes from years past. They are current as of May 8, 2007.

Here is what Chipman earlier had to say after the lockout and before the salary cap took yet another significant jump when interviewed by Ken Wiebe of the Winnipeg Sun in January 2006. And since then the salary cap is expected to take another big jump.


In the "New NHL" as in the "Old NHL" Winnipeg does not work on so many levels. If the NHL BOG only looked at the fan support from Joe and Jane Sixpack, Winnipeg might be able to make a case but awarding an NHL franchise entails a great deal more than that.

Thanks for that Westcoaster!

 

[Hawker14]

The Apologists like to claim statistical evidence proves neither city could support a team. Yet with their figures, markets like Phoenix, Miami and Atlanta should be economic powerhouses driving the NHL, and not teams like Edmonton and Calgary. They like to debate out of both sides of their mouth.

The NHL is a niche sport in several US markets. It is an economic powerhouse in each Canadian city that houses a franchise. The fact that the smallest market in Canada (Edmonton) has to contribute to the league's revenue sharing fund is a classic example of the NHL's niche status in many US markets, and the most obvious failure of Bettman's reign.

Of course the NHL will put teams back into Winnipeg and Quebec City.

 

[LeafErikson]

You are cherry picking quotes without mentioning the context (a provincial election campaign promise where a politician was trying to align himself with the people in Winnipeg that are trying to obtain a team). Why not post the 10 minute interview with Asper on FAN590 done at around the time of the all star game which was much more positive or Richardson Financial's CEO recent positive letter last week to the Free Press? Or Gary Doer, the current Premier's recent statement that he's been working quietly behind the scenes with said group on the return of the NHL to Winnipeg. Or Chipman's spokesman's recent statement that they are in regular contact with the NHL on the issue, etc., etc., etc.

GHOST

Excellent, I love it when people who are closer to the issues come in with a good rebuttle!

 

[LeafErikson]

The Apologists like to claim statistical evidence proves neither city could support a team. Yet with their figures, markets like Phoenix, Miami and Atlanta should be economic powerhouses driving the NHL, and not teams like Edmonton and Calgary. They like to debate out of both sides of their mouth.

The NHL is a niche sport in several US markets. It is an economic powerhouse in each Canadian city that houses a franchise. The fact that the smallest market in Canada (Edmonton) has to contribute to the league's revenue sharing fund is a classic example of the NHL's niche status in many US markets, and the most obvious failure of Bettman's reign.

Of course the NHL will put teams back into Winnipeg and Quebec City.

And the people who argue this isn't a good thread, and are tired of this topic, are just trying to avoid things like that!

 

[nomorekids]

So from perusing this thread, the idea I'm seeing put forth is:

"Hockey belongs in Winnipeg and Quebec(and even Hartford, who by the admission of realistic ex-Whaler fans, isn't an NHL city in the modern era)"

And why?

"Because I liked it when they were around."

I liked the ability to super-size at McDonalds, but enough fat people blamed this concept for their lack of self-control...and I had to deal with it.

So too do you.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Excellent, I love it when people who are closer to the issues come in with a good rebuttle!

Well, maybe that's the problem. People just don't know what they are talking about, don't really care, or engage in willful blindness. There is no doubt that the business and political elite in Manitoba has been quietly studying and lobbying behind the scenes for the most part on the issue of bringing an NHL team back to Winnipeg. I repeat, it's being done for the most part quietly. And the reasons for this I can only guess are a) it's a sensitive issue in Winnipeg, b) it may not even be possible to obtain a team at the price they want to pay and c) there is absolutely no benefit to them making a big deal about it in public and putting added pressure on themselves. Whether it happens or no, no one can say for sure. Just this past week there was a letter to the editor of the Free Press from the CEO of Richardson Financial that spoke positively about the issue. The Richardson family is worth over 1.8 billion dollars FYI. Previously we heard that the Aspers would also be interested if the opportunity arises -- their net worth is listed at 1.1 billion. And there are others that would likely be involved.

GHOST

 

[tiredman]

So from perusing this thread, the idea I'm seeing put forth is:

"Hockey belongs in Winnipeg and Quebec(and even Hartford, who by the admission of realistic ex-Whaler fans, isn't an NHL city in the modern era)"

And why?

"Because I liked it when they were around."

I liked the ability to super-size at McDonalds, but enough fat people blamed this concept for their lack of self-control...and I had to deal with it.

So too do you.

Why ?
-Because Quebec always had good attendance even in their bad years.
-Because Quebec vs Montreal is a great rivalry.
-Because Quebec has a solid fans base.
-Because Quebec would sell tv rights for probably all their games.
-Because Quebec lost their team because they had no arena and no plan to build a new one. Not because they don't have fans or the attendances were bad.
-Because Quebec is a much better hockey city than many other cities that currently have nhl teams.
-Because Quebec lost their team because a group offered a lot of cash to Aubut. He just couldn't refuse it. Even Aubut said he would have kept the team if a new was built.
-Because the NHL needs more canadians teams.
-Because the NHL without canadian teams would be dead.
-Because Quebec is a city of snow.
-Because many many players loved to play here.

Is that enough ?

Now. Tell us why a city like Nashville deserves a team more than Quebec and Winnipeg.

 

[Levizk]

Why ?
-Because Quebec always had good attence even in their bad years.
-Because Quebec vs Montreal is a great rivalry.
-Because Quebec has a solid fans base.
-Because Quebec would sell tv rights for probably all their games.
-Because Quebec lost their team because they had no arena and no plan to build a new one. Not because they don't have fans or the attendances were bad.
-Because Quebec is a much better hockey city than many other cities that currently have nhl teams.
-Because Quebec lost their team because a group offered a lot of cash to Aubut. He just couldn't refuse it. Even Aubut said he would have kept the team if a new was built.
-Because the NHL needs more canadians teams.
-Because the NHL without canadian teams would be dead.
-Because Quebec is a city of snow.
-Because many many players loved to play here.

Is that enough ?

You basically just used 11 bullet points to say "Because I liked it when they were around.". You need a bullet point stating a date for a new arena being built and another bullet listing the amount of corporate support that new arena has before the other eleven matter.

 

[LeafErikson]

Well, maybe that's the problem. People just don't know what they are talking about, don't really care, or engage in willful blindness. There is no doubt that the business and political elite in Manitoba has been quietly studying and lobbying behind the scenes for the most part on the issue of bringing an NHL team back to Winnipeg. I repeat, it's being done for the most part quietly. And the reasons for this I can only guess are a) it's a sensitive issue in Winnipeg, b) it may not even be possible to obtain a team at the price they want to pay and c) there is absolutely no benefit to them making a big deal about it in public and putting added pressure on themselves. Whether it happens or no, no one can say for sure. Just this past week there was a letter to the editor of the Free Press from the CEO of Richardson Financial that spoke positively about the issue. The Richardson family is worth over 1.8 billion dollars FYI. Previously we heard that the Aspers would also be interested if the opportunity arises -- their net worth is listed at 1.1 billion. And there are others that would likely be involved.

GHOST

Well, hopefully for the city, these people show enough interest in the idea of a team, that they do eventually get involved. It would be great if big money could get into it, and support the NHL in Winnipeg.