Should we explore trading Mantha for a young promising defenseman?

[DetroitRed]

-Yes they both need improvements but the defense needs time to develop (years) more so that directly improved.

-Yes improving both would certainly make us competitive again but trading Mantha isn't going to make the offense more competitive.

-And yes I know I posted both sides the argument. I believe in the second option. There. Cleared that up.


Honestly, this back and forth doesn't matter really. Nothing has to be fixed now. Or in the next two weeks. Or next month. If we're having his convo 3 years from now, then I'm taking your side.

In a sense, they can afford to be patient, because there is no quick fix that will help them get competitive again in the short-term (I think patience is one of the keys to rebuilding anyway). On the other hand, they will have to start their turnaround somewhere. So, it's good to explore all the options.

My problem with the idea is that I doubt you get quite as much back in a defender as you give in a forward. So unless that proves not to be true, it stands to reason that there are better ways (like the draft and free-agency) to address the need for defensive improvement . The one exception would be if they had a surplus of offense to trade away, which they clearly don't.

In the absence of a surplus of offense or an amazing trade situation, the questions become contracting players in the most responsible way, making the right choices at the draft, and coaching. But that's a digression.

 

[Inspiration]

Anthony Mantha (from Corsica):

5v5 Shot Attempts per 60:

18-19: 13.31
17-18: 13.72
16-17: 13.37

5v5 CF% / xGF%

18-19: 56.37% / 55.72%
17-18: 51.55% / 52.55%
16-17: 53.35% / 53.48%

So why do his numbers look so terrible? Well, funny you should ask...

5v5 Detroit shooting % / save % when Mantha is on the ice:

18-19: 2.53% / 85.94%
17-18: 8.51% / 92.75%
16-17: 9.55% / 92.26%

Don't trade a guy because he is getting unlucky. This is how bad teams stay bad.

 

[Frk It]

Fair. In general I agree with the premise that Dmen hold more value than a wing but on the other hand, "value" is a moving target.

Evander Kane went for a 1st, prospect and 3rd/4th.

while Hamilton was traded for a 1st, and two 2nds.

Similar packages especially when you consider Hamilton was a young controlled PMD with a 40 point season under his belt.

Right... 1 trade does not set the market. It is a spectrum.

 

[RedWingzz]

Anthony Mantha (from Corsica):

5v5 Shot Attempts per 60:

18-19: 13.31
17-18: 13.72
16-17: 13.37

5v5 CF% / xGF%

18-19: 56.37% / 55.72%
17-18: 51.55% / 52.55%
16-17: 53.35% / 53.48%

So why do his numbers look so terrible? Well, funny you should ask...

5v5 Detroit shooting % / save % when Mantha is on the ice:

18-19: 2.53% / 85.94%
17-18: 8.51% / 92.75%
16-17: 9.55% / 92.26%

Don't trade a guy because he is getting unlucky. This is how bad teams stay bad.

I think it's more than just him being "unlucky". He does not look like he cares out there. He takes entire games off. I don't know how an NHL player would have the mindset of not giving their all every-time they're on the ice, but when I watch Mantha I see a guy who doesn't seem to care. He lacks passion, and seems content with being mediocre. It's unfortunate because when he is moving his feet, and playing with passion, he can go absolute beast mode.

 

[Inspiration]

I think it's more than just him being "unlucky". He does not look like he cares out there. He takes entire games off. I don't know how an NHL player would have the mindset of not giving their all every-time they're on the ice, but when I watch Mantha I see a guy who doesn't seem to care. He lacks passion, and seems content with being mediocre. It's unfortunate because when he is moving his feet, and playing with passion, he can go absolute beast mode.

Funny how guys seem to subjectively begin "looking" bad right around the time they have a unlucky shooting percentage stretch. Is it possible that he's the same guy he always has been but your opinion is being colored by the fluky results? It feel like these are the exact conversations we were having about Johan Franzen years ago: when the puck wasn't going in for stretches everyone (including myself) complained about his floating, yet at the end of the year no one complained when he finished with his usual 25-30 goals.

 

[The Flying Octopus]

Why is it always lets trade the players? The team can't score, cant break out of their own end, can't enter the O zone, it's not the players it's the system! Or rather lack there of! Every year for the last 3 it's the same **** over and over and over again Trashhill is the biggest problem here.

Exactly. Before we start trading top 6 forwards, let’s see what a new system can do. I really don’t get the love obsession with Blashill or why the love to keep him through the year, beyond. It’s obviously not working and now we have a board full of hypothetical trades for one of our better players.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

At this point he is worth Brett Lebda.So no.

 

[lilidk]

Mantha potential star doesn't play like one . Its mental , he needs different coach, different approach , so does AA

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Mantha potential star doesn't play like one . Its mental , he needs different coach, different approach , so does AA

No, they need to get their heads out of their ass. The games were AA does this and skates hard? He looks like one of the best players on the ice. The games where he gets in his own head and for lack of a better way of saying it "goes rogue", he looks awful and then gets benched for a game or two.

There is no way that Blashill's system is so bad that it ruins players when Jon Cooper runs the exact same system in Tampa and they're on the verge of a Cup almost annually.

People should stop giving guys like Mantha and AA a pass for coasting. For the talent both of them have, they should be able to do stuff even with bad wings or in Mantha's case a bad C.

So, I agree they need a different approach. I don't think that's a Jeff Blashill specific problem or one that is solved by getting rid of him. Maybe if you got Torts and he went red-ass on them, they'd respond or go Bylsma and his player-friendly route would reach them. But for those two especially, it's them, it's them, it's them. And until you learn to say that it's them, they'll always be 35-40 point forwards who are passengers.

 

[Claypool]

No point in trading a young player on a cheap contract.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

No point in trading a young player on a cheap contract.

If I can get Jacob Trouba for him plus something reasonable, I do it in a millisecond.

 

[HisNoodliness]

No, they need to get their heads out of their ass. The games were AA does this and skates hard? He looks like one of the best players on the ice. The games where he gets in his own head and for lack of a better way of saying it "goes rogue", he looks awful and then gets benched for a game or two.

There is no way that Blashill's system is so bad that it ruins players when Jon Cooper runs the exact same system in Tampa and they're on the verge of a Cup almost annually.

People should stop giving guys like Mantha and AA a pass for coasting. For the talent both of them have, they should be able to do stuff even with bad wings or in Mantha's case a bad C.

So, I agree they need a different approach. I don't think that's a Jeff Blashill specific problem or one that is solved by getting rid of him. Maybe if you got Torts and he went red-ass on them, they'd respond or go Bylsma and his player-friendly route would reach them. But for those two especially, it's them, it's them, it's them. And until you learn to say that it's them, they'll always be 35-40 point forwards who are passengers.

For what it's worth I think Tampa would have a couple of cups already if not for Cooper. His line combinations and ice time distributions are frequently awful, and he's shown no ability to adapt his approach when things go poorly. I don't think either is a good coach, and Cooper's success in Tampa shouldn't really give credit to Blashill.

 

[Shaman464]

Don't trade young value. Trade away older players, expect to tank, get better picks and be patient.

Except defensemen take a long time to develop unless they are slam dunks. If Detroit gets a top 5 pick, it will be likely most of their forward core will be set. Drafting a d-man in the later rounds or years down the road who won't be in the NHL until 2022 or later isn't going to go well with a forward core that is going to be ready to play meaningful games in 2020.

 

[Claypool]

If I can get Jacob Trouba for him plus something reasonable, I do it in a millisecond.

You’re not getting Trouba for him.

 

[MtlBoxFan]

Except defensemen take a long time to develop unless they are slam dunks. If Detroit gets a top 5 pick, it will be likely most of their forward core will be set. Drafting a d-man in the later rounds or years down the road who won't be in the NHL until 2022 or later isn't going to go well with a forward core that is going to be ready to play meaningful games in 2020.

And who is going to trade a slam dunk defenseman to Detroit? You'll only get a young defenseman worth developing through the draft. Hate to say it, but Detroit probably has to suck until 2020.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

If I can get Jacob Trouba for him plus something reasonable, I do it in a millisecond.

Trouba +? You're lucky if we only give up Mantha without adding more for him.

 

[Ezekial]

Trouba +? You're lucky if we only give up Mantha without adding more for him.

The "him" was Mantha.

Still don't see us trading Mantha for Trouba.

 

[WingsMike]

Trouba +? You're lucky if we only give up Mantha without adding more for him.

Trouba is worth a LOT more than Mantha. I think you misread tsweeney.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Trouba is worth a LOT more than Mantha. I think you misread tsweeney.

Oh ok.

 

[Henkka]

Trouba could be a lot more valuable than Mantha, but if he is 100% sure gonna leave Winnipeg, it will be a losing trade for Jets anyways. That could push his value down so much, that getting Mantha would be somewhat "good loss" in their eyes.

You have to think the market too. Value doesn't go 1-on-1 on this kind of cases, where player wants out or threatens to walk free as UFA.

Like Karlsson was traded for peanuts. Same case.

 

[Heaton]

Trouba could be a lot more valuable than Mantha, but if he is 100% sure gonna leave Winnipeg, it will be a losing trade for Jets anyways. That could push his value down so much, that getting Mantha would be somewhat "good loss" in their eyes.

You have to think the market too. Value doesn't go 1-on-1 on this kind of cases, where player wants out or threatens to walk free as UFA.

Like Karlsson was traded for peanuts. Same case.

Depends how good the GM is. Marty St. Louis was 100% only going to the Rangers and Yzerman got a ton of value.

 

[Dotter]

Mantha should be expandable if Zadina becomes better. RAS will be the net font guy... so really, Mantha doesn't bring anything uniquely better to the table than we already have. Mantha is a floater and a streaky goal scorer (poor man's Franzen). He might peak at 35 goals and be a consistent 25/30 goal guy.

I don't foresee him ever having the trade value many here hope.

 

[lilidk]

One day something will click in his head, until then just keep him as 3rd liner , he isn't overpaid like Aby

 

[dragonballgtz]

With 29 games to go and the way Mantha has played this season, should the Wings looks to move him in the off-season? Larkin took a huge step this year, AA seems to have matured more, while Mantha is still... Mantha. If he wasn't hurt he might have hit 25+ goals this year but it still seems like has hasn't taken a step forward like the other two young guns have.

 

[Shaman464]

With 29 games to go and the way Mantha has played this season, should the Wings looks to move him in the off-season? Larkin took a huge step this year, AA seems to have matured more, while Mantha is still... Mantha. If he wasn't hurt he might have hit 25+ goals this year but it still seems like has hasn't taken a step forward like the other two young guns have.

No, he's at the lowest point of his value.