Speculation: Should the Wings look at trading...

MBH

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Is this serious! You would give up on 20 year old defender that quickly for a 2nd round pick?

Do people think most defenders step in and are dominant immediately, or that some defenders don't need time to learn the pro game? He is in his 2nd pro season and only half way through it, if all you pro tank guys are this impatient, how the heck are you going to survive a rebuild? While I would like him to be doing better, it isn't like he gets the benefit of learning the defensive side from anyone good on our team. Hronek is doing good, but he also started out as better in his own end so making the jump will come easier for a player like that. Cholo needs time to learn to defensive side of the game, maybe he gets there maybe he doesn't but how about some patience? If he isn't part of a major piece coming back he is a no go right now on the trade front.

He's not 20 though. He's about to be 22.
He's getting close to an age where you have to make decisions on him

Other than that, I agree with you.
Defensemen often take a long time.

For whatever reason, Detroit seemed to rush Cholowski, even though I think it was well understood that he was going to be a bit of a project.
 

Rzombo4 prez

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If you told me after completition of the 2016 NHL draft that by Christmas of 2019 Dennis Cholowski will have played 81 NHL games and put up 24 pts I would be thrilled. This is a kid that we were told in advance was a project and was expected to play three seasons of NCAA hockey.

If propsects (especially defensemen) lose the ability to mature or get better at 21 we are all f***ed.

I get that we are at the bottom of the competative cycle and I get that Cholowski still shows plenty of deficiences in the defensive zone but people need to stop letting our current state of affairs cloud their judgement.
 
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ShelbyZ

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Unless some team is offering up a handsome reward that helps the NHL club now, I wouldn't move him.

Especially not for a pick or picks, since that's essentially hitting the reset button.

In a perfect or near perfect world, the Wings end up in a situation like Carolina or Anaheim have been in in recent years where they have a good number of "pre or just entering" prime young Dmen on the NHL roster, with more on the way in the organization. The guys waiting to come up can then make some of the guys on the roster expendable and then potentially used in a package to get a player the team actually needs like possibly a goalie or a better Dman...

At this point, Cholowski needs to stay in the AHL for a while if the Wings ever hope to get any value out of him.

But at the end of the day, if he becomes Smith 2.0 as some are predicting, a 2nd and 3rd for him at the 2025 deadline won't be the worst outcome. :dunno::dunno::laugh::laugh:
 

TheOctopusKid

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The one thing that I generally find refreshing about having Yzerman at the helm is he is not afraid to make a big move. While we were subject to years of Holland's "wait and see" passivity, Yzerman has proven that he is willing to trade fan favorites, under performing high draft picks, and walk away from overpriced veterans - essentially the antithesis of Holland who would overpay Detroit stalwarts beyond their market value to keep them in the fold, often allow prospects to under develop, underperform, and wash out before reclaiming any value, and overreach of aging vets who brought little to the table and whose original teams no longer wanted them.

This has been a year of "see what I got" for Yzerman and with some players (Villi, Regula) I think he disagreed that they had a reasonable shot of reaching their potential and moved on. In other instances, he has taken young prospects and moved them up to evaluate their play. I have no doubt that he will come to some conclusion about Cholowski this year and with look to move him while he still has "potential" or if he believes this kid can grow into a Top 4 role, we'll see him in a larger role. No more wait and see.
 

Three Crowns

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I’d rather not trade Cholowski since he’s one of our top D prospects and the defence is currently quite atrocious but fwiw, what do you guys think a package of Cholo + AA could fetch us? I’m thinking of a young(ish) defenceman...
If in the summer something even as high as a 10th pick could be had I guess we all would pull the trigger as well?
 

Reddwit

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Yes, they should consider it. The team has put Bowey, Biega, and Brian Lashoff ahead of him. A team that is essentially saying "if you can play an ounce of NHL quality defense, you will start."

No, no they haven't. None of those guys have any bearing on Cholowski. Biega and Lashoff are veteran warm body fillers and Bowey is a cat on his 9th life at the age of 24.

The team has put them "ahead" of Cholowski about as much as they've put Ehn ahead of Veleno or Pickard ahead of Larsson. No one is judging these guys by the same standards.

If he can't be a regular on this dumpster fire of a team, I don't know how he's going to stick long-term.

Because a 21 year old offensive defenseman doesn't look good playing #4 minutes alongside an equally terrible defense partner on literally the worst defensive team of the modern era with literally the worst cumulative goaltending of the modern era, sporting such a piss poor goal differential that even the inaugural Atlanta Thrashers team of 1999 did better, you can't fathom how he might be able to hack it on a team that isn't record-setting bad?
 
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Go Wings

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I don't want to trade him until we see him with a real coach. We he first came into the league he have all kinds of creativity until Blashill coached it out of him. Put a real coach and see if they can let him be creative will fixing his d game.
 

vladdy16

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Cholowski has proven to be a cut below Makar, Heiskenen, Dahlin, etc. The next tier of young D has lots of guys currently outperforming Cholowski, and you can take your pick from them, but that group is going to have a ton of turnover as play styles shift and injuries add up, and as insulating environments change. Cholowski is in the thick of it, not the outside looking in...

The rest is immaturity, impatience, a lack of perspective, and poor analysis from our media and fanbase imo. Cholowski has a glaring weakness, and a propensity to lose his game and get caught in a slump while trying to address it.

... as a 21 yo defensemen on a historically bad team.

And really, it's only in those slumps that people come out of the woodwork with this bs. Cholowski has had no business having any success with the DRW at this point in his career, and he's been a borderline stabilizing force for longer stretches than he's been a lamb to slaughter. He still has more than half a decade of development to add to his game.

Cholowskis best attribute is his hockey sense. He's already shown the ability to use some tools along with that at the NHL level. As his game matures, as his familiarity with the league increases, and most importantly, as he gets saddled with more and more responsibilities, he will continue to be a player that sees the ice well, and is committed to making a balance tipping impact on the game. As is, he fits a rare mold for defensemen, and it's not something that should be taken lightly, or giving up on easily.

He might be Seiders long time top-pair partner. Might be an underrated 2nd pairing stabilizer. He might get caught up in the development cycle and cast off by the selfish needs of the organization. But the idea that he is some fringe bottom pairing offensive d-man masquerading as a prospect, is quite frankly an indication of an extreme level of laziness on the part of the analyst, hoping that they can translate off hand micro level observations, into a macro level hot take.

It's been a pointless, if not horrible year for Cholowski. His value is still higher than it was on draft day, and he's still in a select group of guys that even have the ability to become a long time top 4 defensemen in the league. And our board will probably continue to overrate tall rugged defensemen at the peak of their health, that accrue 40 pt seasons as a sheer product of TOI in the mean time...
 
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deca guard

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one thing i like about bringing choski up is it gave him a bitter taste of the nastiness he has to deal with in the bigs instead of sheltering him in the A . it happened to me a cocky 8th grade db when we scrimmaged the freshman highschool team and i got walked over by their big wide receiver . made me realize i was a long way away and i had to elevate my training beyond what i thought was sufficient . those eye opener moments do wonders for peoples training sessions . now choskis eyes been opened and he has til next october to try to be ready again = KEEP HIM IN GRAND RAPIDS ALL SEASON
 
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Hen Kolland

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I don't want to trade him until we see him with a real coach. We he first came into the league he have all kinds of creativity until Blashill coached it out of him. Put a real coach and see if they can let him be creative will fixing his d game.

You are totally right (and I totally mean this with 100% honestly and not a single hint of sarcasm), Cholowski's problems have nothing to do with his physical limitations, his lack of first step acceleration, and his glaring issue of having poor defensive instincts. It's all about Blashill somehow coaching creativity (of which, none would solve his defensive woes) out of his game. Blashill riding Cholowski hard when his defensive game collapses to sub-standard AHL levels is certainly the problem here.

Now, to be more candid, Cholowski needs more time to mature physically and to certainly mature as a defenseman. He needs to learn how professional hockey players attack him, and how he can effectively prevent opportunities, or at the very least limit the opportunities to the lowest possible level of danger. All the creativity in the world won't cover up being a disaster defensively. Hell, Athanasiou has more creativity than damn near everyone on the roster, and he still gets lambasted for his inability to play engaged and effective defense, and he's a forward. Imagine how different that becomes if you are a defenseman...defense is literally in the name of the position he plays.
 

MBH

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The rest is immaturity, impatience, a lack of perspective, and poor analysis from our media and fanbase imo.

It couldn't have anything to do with Cholowski's play, though, right?
Cholo has A lot to learn.
He's got to get stronger.
And it would help if he grew some balls out there. He plays with unusual timidness.

The truth is, outside his hot streak on the powerplay as a rookie, Cholowski is been underwhelming to awful in almost every facet of the game.

He should have been in the AHL the entire year last year. He probably should have started this year in the AHL, too.

It hasn't helped him to play for such a disjointed, poorly coached team with very little competent support on the blueline.

I think he could still end up being a poor man's Shattenkirk.
 

Kronwalled55

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No, no they haven't. None of those guys have any bearing on Cholowski. Biega and Lashoff are veteran warm body fillers and Bowey is a cat on his 9th life at the age of 24.

The team has put them "ahead" of Cholowski about as much as they've put Ehn ahead of Veleno or Pickard ahead of Larsson. No one is judging these guys by the same standards.

Because a 21 year old offensive defenseman doesn't look good playing #4 minutes alongside an equally terrible defense partner on literally the worst defensive team of the modern era with literally the worst cumulative goaltending of the modern era, sporting such a piss poor goal differential that even the inaugural Atlanta Thrashers team of 1999 did better, you can't fathom how he might be able to hack it on a team that isn't record-setting bad?

Filip Hronek, who was drafted one round later than Cholowski, is arguably the #1 defender on the team. Nobody has to make excuses for him, yet there's constant excuses for why Cholowski has been terrible.

He's 21 now and will be 22 by February. It's the second year now where his play has earned him an AHL spot halfway through the season. Good players will make their mark no matter the situation. Even if the team doesn't VALUE Biega, Lashoff, Bowey, etc. over Cholowski, leaving him off the team is icing the better roster. 2-2 without him already and that's not a coincidence.
 
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vladdy16

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It couldn't have anything to do with Cholowski's play, though, right?

Making an observation that Cholowski is struggling with this or that isn't immature. Wanting that observation to translate into a concrete, ahead of the curve judgement at this stage, clearly is, imo.


Cholo has A lot to learn.
He's got to get stronger.
And it would help if he grew some balls out there. He plays with unusual timidness.

So does every other d-man in his age group on the first two.

And his timidness is his best asset, and will contribute to his development as he starts to play more minutes in higher level situations. Some players need to learn to not chase the play, Cholowski needs to learn when there is an urgent opportunity to abort a play. Both take time and experience.

Cholowski's TOI is indicative of the limited role and focus he has been tasked with thus far at the NHL level. He's played 1 single game in 2 years at 27 minutes. A handful of 22-25, and the rest as a fringe player.

I just think because Cholowskis passivity in the dzone is so glaring at times, people really, really jump the gun about the implications of having a concrete talking point on a player. It would be ridiculous if I made a thread suggesting trading some developing Patrik Nemeth clone every time he went on a scoring slump or was caught on tape flubbing breakout passes or missing open teammates.

The truth is, outside his hot streak on the powerplay as a rookie, Cholowski is been underwhelming to awful in almost every facet of the game.

Except his 1 on 1 transition defense. Puck moving skills and vision. Risk willingness. Blue line walking and O-zone keeps. Neutral zone rush skills. Goal scoring skills. Point shot chemistry with net front. Horizontal hockey chemistry with Green and Mantha. Professionalism and teamwork with multiple incompetent or diminished partners...

I think he could still end up being a poor man's Shattenkirk.

I think that's his floor.
 
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vladdy16

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Filip Hronek, who was drafted one round later than Cholowski, is arguably the #1 defender on the team. Nobody has to make excuses for him, yet there's constant excuses for why Cholowski has been terrible.

Take a look at the difference between the forwards Hronek and Cholowski have played with. Hronek has been a revelation and mostly tremendous since day 1. He is of no use as leverage in arguments about Cholowski.

Even if the team doesn't VALUE Biega, Lashoff, Bowey, etc. over Cholowski, leaving him off the team is icing the better roster. 2-2 without him already and that's not a coincidence.

This isn't even close to slightly realistic.
 
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MBH

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Making an observation that Cholowski is struggling with this or that isn't immature. Wanting that observation to translate into a concrete, ahead of the curve judgement at this stage, clearly is, imo.




So does every other d-man in his age group on the first two.

And his timidness is his best asset, and will contribute to his development as he starts to play more minutes in higher level situations. Some players need to learn to not chase the play, Cholowski needs to learn when there is an urgent opportunity to abort a play. Both take time and experience.

Cholowski's TOI is indicative of the limited role and focus he has been tasked with thus far at the NHL level. He's played 1 single game in 2 years at 27 minutes. A handful of 22-25, and the rest as a fringe player.

I just think because Cholowskis passivity in the dzone is so glaring at times, people really, really jump the gun about the implications of having a concrete talking point on a player. It would be ridiculous if I made a thread suggesting trading some developing Patrik Nemeth clone every time he went on a scoring slump or was caught on tape flubbing breakout passes or missing open teammates.



Except his 1 on 1 transition defense. Puck moving skills and vision. Risk willingness. Blue line walking and O-zone keeps. Neutral zone rush skills. Goal scoring skills. Point shot chemistry with net front. Horizontal hockey chemistry with Green and Mantha. Professionalism and teamwork with multiple incompetent or diminished partners...



I think that's his floor.

Yeah, that doesn't make much sense.
His timidness is his best asset? Goodness.

There are people who say he's a bust.
And there's you.
The truth is nowhere near either extreme.
 

Voodoo Glow Skulls

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Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I think Yzerman could go either way on him. He already dealt two prospects, and Cholowski has more value.

I wonder if he could be an add on to up the value in a trade for a young player that Yzerman keyed in on.

I'm just speculating, I wouldn't be upset if Detroit opted to keep him.
 
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vladdy16

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Yeah, that doesn't make much sense.
His timidness is his best asset? Goodness.

It doesn't make sense that it's a good thing for a d-man to prioritize composure and reading the play?

And the sentences of support that I added to the topic sentence did nothing to sway you from cherry picking a strawman? Goodness...


There are people who say he's a bust.
And there's you.
The truth is nowhere near either extreme.

Haha, whatever you say?
 
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vladdy16

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Not a professional. I'm a fan.
Regardless, my take beats "Timidness is his greatest strength."

You seem well versed in beating strawmen with your takes. I guess you don't have a counter point for all the ways a player might look timid that don't have to do with bravery, and I guess you've been as detailed as you are going to be about your impressions of Cholowski. I'll keep my eye on his "Guts" attribute moving forward.
 

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