News Article: Should the Blackhawks drop the emblamatic Indianhead due to the times we are living in?

[ChiHawks10]

PC babies!

 

[ChiHawks10]

It depends on what you consider extremism. Some people believe in a warped sense of it. In the US, I believe there is a warped sense of extremism. Things that people consider extremism in the US are just common sense in the remainder of western society.

I can't take that seriously when people call me an extremist for suggesting things like universal health care and a decent work/life balance.

The majority of the country wouldn't call you an extremist for thinking those things. Cancelling the Blackhawks logo because three Native Americans out of 8 million find it offensive, (along with 8 million white people ) would be extreme.

I'm pretty sure you can tell the difference between something being extreme, and something not, come on...

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

If you grow up in a major urban area, it's pretty hard to be in a cultural bubble. I've seen it, but only because I live on the outer edge of the burbs....and I went to HS in a rural district. Talk about a cultural bubble......

Gotta disagree with this.
If you grew up in West Englewood, you were in a cultural bubble.
If you grew up in Richton Park, Bellwood, etc.

There are rural bubbles and there are urban bubbles where 80% or more of the population are demographically and culturally alike.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Gotta disagree with this.
If you grew up in West Englewood, you were in a cultural bubble.
If you grew up in Richton Park, Bellwood, etc.

There are rural bubbles and there are urban bubbles where 80% or more of the population are demographically and culturally alike.

He grew up in a town that is 90% white, and the median household income is $90,000... it's more than fair to say he grew up in a cultural bubble. Especially when you consider the demographics in almost all the towns around it are exactly the same...

Even if you grew up in West Englewood, you're exposed to far more diversity than you would be somewhere similar to where he grew up.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

He grew up in a town that is 90% white, and the median household income is $90,000... it's more than fair to say he grew up in a cultural bubble. Especially when you consider the demographics in almost all the towns around it are exactly the same...

Even if you grew up in West Englewood, you're exposed to far more diversity than you would be somewhere similar to where he grew up.

Bingo......

There were kids who's parents were buying them certified preowned Lexuses and Beamers for their first car... JFC.

I went to school with folks who lived in 500k houses ffs.

It was a total cultural bubble. My folks are on the bubble between middle class and upper middle class and we were the "poor" ones in the district....lol.

The folks I grew up with are completely divorced from reality. My best friend is one of them.
I was exposed to other cultures because of where my folks came from, rather than my surroundings.

My uncle is South Asian....my dad grew up in the projects on the south side of Chicago and went to a boys boarding school for kids of single mothers......My Mom is a 1st gen immigrant, and the South Asian guy is married to my mom's sister. Because of my dad's background, I was exposed to a lot of black culture....he's always been big into it. He wore an afro in college, and he's always been into 60s/70s R&B/Soul. I grew up watching BET, because my dad did...and he's a white dude.

When I went to IIT I used to tell all of the Indian students that I had a cousin with a common Indian name and they'd look at me funny...but it's true lol.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Even if you grew up in West Englewood, you're exposed to far more diversity than you would be somewhere similar to where he grew up.

Why? What diversity would you be exposed to in Englewood?

 

[ChiHawks10]

Why? What diversity would you be exposed to in Englewood?

The surrounding areas are far more diverse. That's why. Generally, you can go a few blocks in any direction, from any neighborhood in Chicago, and see far more diversity than you would out in the NW burbs. I'm not sure how that can even be debated.

Where he grew up, you have miles, upon miles, upon miles, of towns that are 85-90% white.

If I grew up in West Englewood, I could go a few miles west, and be in a neighborhood 80% Hispanic. I go a few miles east, and I'm in a neighborhood that is 50% white, 30% black, 12% Asian, 9% Hispanic. I could go a few miles north, and be in a neighborhood that is almost an even mix of white, Hispanic, Asian, and black. I could walk those distances in any direction, in a relatively short time... and be exposed to a massive amount of diverse people and cultures.

Him... he could ride in a car for 30 minutes, and not be exposed to more than a metaphorical handful of diverse cultures and people. Lol.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Bingo......

There were kids who's parents were buying them certified preowned Lexuses and Beamers for their first car... JFC.

I went to school with folks who lived in 500k houses ffs.

It was a total cultural bubble. My folks are on the bubble between middle class and upper middle class and we were the "poor" ones in the district....lol.

The folks I grew up with are completely divorced from reality. My best friend is one of them.
I was exposed to other cultures because of where my folks came from, rather than my surroundings.

My uncle is South Asian....my dad grew up in the projects on the south side of Chicago and went to a boys boarding school for kids of single mothers......My Mom is a 1st gen immigrant, and the South Asian guy is married to my mom's sister. Because of my dad's background, I was exposed to a lot of black culture....he's always been big into it. He wore an afro in college, and he's always been into 60s/70s R&B/Soul. I grew up watching BET, because my dad did...and he's a white dude.

When I went to IIT I used to tell all of the Indian students that I had a cousin with a common Indian name and they'd look at me funny...but it's true lol.

Bro, your Dad needs to stop with the cultural appropriation.

(this is me pointing out the extremism of PC/SJW culture)

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

Bro, your Dad needs to stop with the cultural appropriation.

(this is me pointing out the extremism of PC/SJW culture)

That's not cultural appropriation.....I wouldn't even say Eminem is cultural appropriation because he grew up in the same sort of environment as others.

Cultural appropriation is some kid from my area dressing like Allen Iverson ca. 2003 having no exposure to the culture as a youth and doing it just because he thinks it's cool.

It's not cultural appropriation if you grew up around that culture.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Yeah, but that's the culture he was raised in.
He's like the one white dude in Engelwood lol.

You have to get my point, though. This is the type of thing I was talking about. Any regular ol' SJW off the street may see your Dad, and how he dresses, even now, and think he's appropriating black culture, and call him on it, and criticize him for it. Especially if your Dad was a public figure(celebrity, business owner, local politician, or any other number of things with public exposure). Extreme SJWs would likely try to cancel him when they noticed his old HS yearbook photo... This isn't even a question of if. In today's world, it would 100% happen.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

The surrounding areas are far more diverse. That's why. Generally, you can go a few blocks in any direction, from any neighborhood in Chicago, and see far more diversity than you would out in the NW burbs. I'm not sure how that can even be debated.

Because I think it's wrong.
The entire south side of Chicago (outside of one small part of the Hyde Park area) is uniformly black and poor.
You have to go miles to find any diversity.

It's 100% a bubble just as much or more than other areas.
Here:
radicalcartography

 

[ClydeLee]

You have to get my point, though. This is the type of thing I was talking about. Any regular ol' SJW off the street may see your Dad, and how he dresses, even now, and think he's appropriating black culture, and call him on it, and criticize him for it.

I get the point of this, but people act like this is different. The direction and motivation the derision comes from may be new, but there was always plenty people willing to call out. I get the mocking of say that the authorities lefties have copied the previous satanic panic types of reaction to wanting things called out and stopped.

These types of things always have existed, it's just history wiggles around as you move through waves of cultures to what viewpoints bounce around. That's why trying to say what someone a 100 years ago would think in this climate on x topic is silly as if their views are so easily comparable to today.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Because I think it's wrong.
The entire south side of Chicago (outside of one small part of the Hyde Park area) is uniformly black and poor.
You have to go miles to find any diversity.

It's 100% a bubble just as much or more than other areas.
Here:
radicalcartography

You're wrong, though. You're 100% factually wrong. I literally just went ~8 intersections west to the West Lawn neighborhood, and it's 80% Hispanic. I went ~8 intersections north to the Bridgeport neighborhood, and it's roughly an even mix of cultures. I went ~8 intersections east, and it's 46% white, 27% black, 12% Asian, and 9% Hispanic. I went ~8 intersections south to Beverly, and it's 54% white, and 37% black. Those are all within 3-5 miles or so of West Englewood. That's what, a 30-40 minute walk in any direction? I could likely go closer to West Englewood, and see more of the same. I only chose those neighborhoods because I've spent some significant portion of my life in them on account of family, or friends, so I'm very familiar with the diversity of them(other than West Lawn, but I grew up on the south side, so I'm familiar with the area surrounding Midway)You can ride a bike in any direction from West Englewood for 10-15 mins, and encounter a completely different racial/cultural makeup of the neighborhood. Not so up in the NW suburbs. Again, you could probably drive a car any direction, for 30 mins, where he grew up, and you'd be in a town that is 80-90% white. It's not even remotely comparable.

 

[ChiHawks10]

That's not cultural appropriation.....I wouldn't even say Eminem is cultural appropriation because he grew up in the same sort of environment as others.

Cultural appropriation is some kid from my area dressing like Allen Iverson ca. 2003 having no exposure to the culture as a youth and doing it just because he thinks it's cool.

It's not cultural appropriation if you grew up around that culture.

It would be to any random SJW that doesn't know your Dad, or his history, and where he grew up. You have to look at it from that perspective, because any ol' SJW off the street is not going to know your Dad. They're just going to see what they see, and call him out on it. Do you think the extremist PC culture right now would care where your Dad grew up if he were say... a tv personality, and they found his yearbook photo from HS with an afro? The answer is f*** no they wouldn't. And it would be even worse if they didn't know any of that history of where he grew up. That's a fact.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

It would be to any random SJW that doesn't know your Dad, or his history, and where he grew up. You have to look at it from that perspective, because any ol' SJW off the street is not going to know your Dad. They're just going to see what they see, and call him out on it.

I know you're right. I don't know people like that....there's nuance to everything. I struggle with a lot of it, but even I can think/logic my way through it.

All of these things, cultural appropriation, mansplaining, a lot of things...are very real...however, they're not as pervasive as people make them out to be. More people just need to talk and get others perspectives.

A lot of my empathy for other people's and groups social justice fights comes from my experiences with both internalized and external ableism. I've experienced discrimination as a person with multiple disabilities, both physical and invisible. It's one of those things that you don't know unless you've experienced it.

So yeah, I empathize with other people who face discrimination and feeling like an "other"

I don't like to use "racism" as much as "otherism" because racism assumes that white people can't be part of an existing oppressed underclass, such as LGBT or disability. While racism is a huge component of otherism, there's another group of people that deserve to be part of the conversation. I'm of the opinion that what helps one of these groups helps us all, and the entire underclass is in this fight together. Different groups have different challenges, and the boot steps on us all from a different angle.

If I were neurotypical I don't know if I would be as progressive as I am, and that's being honest.

There's this part of me that isn't ok with being on disability. I want to work so damn badly, I just haven't found a compatible environment outside of autism-specialized workplaces, and I have mixed feelings about those. Another thing is that I'm one of those gifted autistic folks so I find normal jobs for the disabled quite boring and unfulfilling, as well as too demanding for my physical issues.

 

[Ratsreign]

“Excessive manners were put down as insincere, and the constant talker was considered rude and thoughtless...”
- Standing Bear, Oglala Lakota

From page 43 of the book, Indian Spirit, (a collection of Native American wisdom, and photos) edited by Michael Oren Fitzgerald and Judith Fitzgerald, with an Introduction by Thomas Yellowtail.
“This book is dedicated to all American Indians. May they perpetuate the essential qualities of their ancestors.”
The rest of us could learn some things from it, too.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

I'd like things in posts if I could. Lol. I'm in timeout from liking until January, though. Such a silly punishment...

One of my biggest frustrations as a disabled person is the lack of validation that my disabilities are real.

So when someone tells me that institutional discrimination doesn't exist, I get mad. I think if you explain stuff to most people, they're receptive. However, there are some things that people who don't experience life in an othered group just won't grasp....and those are the hardest things to change in society. The issue is that those affected by these things are not trusted when they tell others they're real.....and instead are accused of having a victim complex. To me, that's an intellectual cop out by someone who doesn't want to face a hard truth. That's when activism becomes necessary, and I approve of semi-militant stuff like blocking traffic and stuff like that....but violence is where I, personally draw the line. However, Do I understand people getting violent when they're fed up with institutional discrimination? Yeah. Do I think it's counterproductive? Yeah. But I understand the frustration that leads to it.


My personal opinion on the Hawks logo...(getting back to that) is that it's a borderline situation. If I were the Hawks, I'd do a poll of tribes in the Great Lakes area and get a consensus. If there's a majority(that has to include the Sauk) that find the logo honorable, then I'd keep it, and continue to promote a partnership with those groups who want to, similar to Florida State and the Seminoles.

If there's a majority that find the logo offensive, then I'd switch to a bird.

The Blackhawks, while using native imagery, are nowhere near the egregious offensiveness of the old Washington team name and Cleveland's Chief Wahoo. Because there are some groups that are ok with being called American Indians, I am fine with them keeping their name as long as they get permission from Ohio native tribes, now that Chief Wahoo is retired.

The reality is, it's not our choice to make and that natives are one of the groups that America shits on the most.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

You're wrong, though. You're 100% factually wrong. I literally just went ~8 intersections west to the West Lawn neighborhood, and it's 80% Hispanic. I went ~8 intersections north to the Bridgeport neighborhood, and it's roughly an even mix of cultures. I went ~8 intersections east, and it's 46% white, 27% black, 12% Asian, and 9% Hispanic. I went ~8 intersections south to Beverly, and it's 54% white, and 37% black. Those are all within 3-5 miles or so of West Englewood. That's what, a 30-40 minute walk in any direction? I could likely go closer to West Englewood, and see more of the same. I only chose those neighborhoods because I've spent some significant portion of my life in them on account of family, or friends, so I'm very familiar with the diversity of them(other than West Lawn, but I grew up on the south side, so I'm familiar with the area surrounding Midway)You can ride a bike in any direction from West Englewood for 10-15 mins, and encounter a completely different racial/cultural makeup of the neighborhood. Not so up in the NW suburbs. Again, you could probably drive a car any direction, for 30 mins, where he grew up, and you'd be in a town that is 80-90% white. It's not even remotely comparable.

3-5 miles is a large area.
And if you're from West Englewood you're not riding your bike to West Lawn. (GD vs 26)
It's absolutely a bubble.

 

[ChiHawks10]

3-5 miles is a large area.
And if you're from West Englewood you're not riding your bike to West Lawn. (GD vs 26)
It's absolutely a bubble.

It's not when where he's from, it's almost entirely white for 20 miles surrounding him... lol. That's the context of what we're discussing. And you're wrong in that context. Wrong by a whole f***in lot.

And obviously there are societal issues like gangs that impact things, but that doesn't change the fact that there's diversity surrounding the area in a much closer proximity than up in the NW suburbs...

I'm saying if you drop a random person in the center of West Englewood, and they ride their bike 10 or 15 mins in any direction, they're in a much more diverse neighborhood than you would be up in the NW burbs...

It's a micro bubble maybe... a very, very, tiny microbubble. It's not a cultural bubble in anywhere near the way it is up in the NW burbs. And that's honestly not debatable. I just looked at demographics for towns within 15-20 miles of where he grew up. Every single one of them, in every direction, for 15-20 miles, with the exception of one or two... is 85%+ white. Lol. It's not even close man. You apparently don't know where he grew up, but I figured saying NW suburbs would kind of be an indicator... Anyone who has lived in the Chicago Metro area, for any part of their life, knows the NW suburbs are almost entirely affluent, white suburbs. Even the most diverse ones are like 65-70% white... and there's only a couple like that.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

It's not when where he's from, it's almost entirely white for 20 miles surrounding him... lol. That's the context of what we're discussing. And you're wrong in that context. Wrong by a whole f***in lot.

And obviously there are societal issues like gangs that impact things, but that doesn't change the fact that there's diversity surrounding the area in a much closer proximity than up in the NW suburbs...

I'm saying if you drop a random person in the center of West Englewood, and they ride their bike 10 or 15 mins in any direction, they're in a much more diverse neighborhood than you would be up in the NW burbs...

It's a micro bubble maybe... a very, very, tiny microbubble. It's not a cultural bubble in anywhere near the way it is up in the NW burbs. And that's honestly not debatable. I just looked at demographics for towns within 15-20 miles of where he grew up. Every single one of them, in every direction, for 15-20 miles, with the exception of one... is 85%+ white. Lol. It's not even close man. You apparently don't know where he grew up, but I figured saying NW suburbs would kind of be an indicator... Anyone who has lived in the Chicago Metro area, for any part of their life, knows the NW suburbs are almost entirely affluent, white suburbs. Even the most diverse ones are like 65-70% white... and there's only a couple like that.

You nailed it.

Elgin is where I live, and while the majority of the city is about as culturally diverse as it gets out here, once you get west of Randall Rd it gets whiter than sour cream pretty darn fast. That's where I'm at. It's worse once you get to Lake in the Hills and further north....might as well be Wisconsin at that point.

In Kane County, there is virtually zero diversity outside of Elgin-Dundee-Carpentersville and Aurora.
There are parts of Carpentersville that look like the stereotypical Barrio.

McHenry county is even worse. We should cede that to Wisconsin lol.

There's a strong South Asian and Middle Eastern population from Hoffman Estates east to Palatine and south to Bartlett and Glendale Heights. Make a rectangle in that area, and that's an interesting thing.

 

[ChiHawks10]

You nailed it.

Elgin is where I live, and while the majority of the city is about as culturally diverse as it gets out here, once you get west of Randall Rd it gets whiter than sour cream pretty darn fast. That's where I'm at. It's worse once you get to Lake in the Hills and further north....might as well be Wisconsin at that point.

In Kane County, there is virtually zero diversity outside of Elgin-Dundee-Carpentersville and Aurora.
There are parts of Carpentersville that look like the stereotypical Barrio.

McHenry county is even worse. We should cede that to Wisconsin lol.

There's a strong South Asian and Middle Eastern population from Hoffman Estates east to Palatine and south to Bartlett and Glendale Heights. Make a rectangle in that area, and that's an interesting thing.

Exactly. I'm not sure how he's trying to debate this... Even Elgin, Dundee, CVille, and Aurora are pretty f***ing white. Haha. I've spent a ton of time fishing the Fox River in all those areas. Elgin is 66% white, and CVille is 63%. Dundee is 83% white. Aurora is the only one that isn't at least 2/3 white, and it's not far off at 57%. And those are the few towns up there that I was actually referring to. Everything else around those for 20 miles, or more, are 83-95% white.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

Exactly. I'm not sure how he's trying to debate this... Even Elgin, Dundee, CVille, and Aurora are pretty f***ing white. Haha. I've spent a ton of time fishing the Fox River in all those areas. Elgin is 66% white, and CVille is 63%. Dundee is 83% white. Aurora is the only one that isn't at least 2/3 white, and it's not far off at 57%. And those are the few towns up there that I was actually referring to. Everything else around those for 20 miles, or more, are 83-95% white.

When it comes to cultural diversity, St. Charles, Geneva and Campton Hills are a joke around these parts. Talk about a cultural bubble. This is what I was talking about, btw.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

You nailed it.

Elgin is where I live, and while the majority of the city is about as culturally diverse as it gets out here, once you get west of Randall Rd it gets whiter than sour cream pretty darn fast. That's where I'm at. It's worse once you get to Lake in the Hills and further north....might as well be Wisconsin at that point.

In Kane County, there is virtually zero diversity outside of Elgin-Dundee-Carpentersville and Aurora.
There are parts of Carpentersville that look like the stereotypical Barrio.

McHenry county is even worse. We should cede that to Wisconsin lol.

There's a strong South Asian and Middle Eastern population from Hoffman Estates east to Palatine and south to Bartlett and Glendale Heights. Make a rectangle in that area, and that's an interesting thing.

So you're within a few miles of a diverse city of over 100,000?
Doesn't that kind of defeat the argument?
You could drive east on Lake St for 10 min and be in a predominantly Hispanic part of Elgin?

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

So you're within a few miles of a diverse city of over 100,000?
Doesn't that kind of defeat the argument?
You could drive east on Lake St for 10 min and be in a predominantly Hispanic part of Elgin?

All you have to do is cross Randall Rd, TBH.

However, Elgin is nothing like other parts of the Chicago Metro once you get east of Kane County.

I didn't grow up with those folks though....I grew up with the Campton Hills richie rich group. You could count the number of non-white people in the entire school on two hands. I think when I attended the district was 97% white. It's gone down a few percentages but it's still 90% or above.

Campton Hills is the area that is...um if you want the rural lifestyle and don't want to be far from the Chicago Metro area.

 

[ChiHawks10]

So you're within a few miles of a diverse city of over 100,000?
Doesn't that kind of defeat the argument?
You could drive east on Lake St for 10 min and be in a predominantly Hispanic part of Elgin?

You're joking, right?