Should our players hit more?

[The Expert]

And the series went 6 and/or 7 games.

So a team that are marginally the favorite won in a long playoff series. I'm not sure what your point is.

My point is quite clear... the Leafs physicality played a huge part in those series', you may be the only one unwilling to admit that. What is you story for the year the Sens were the 2nd seed?

You bring up a good point though, physicality is an asset for long playoff series', which you're correct, played a part.

Oh I remember. I remember the Sens being carried by one dominant line that was shutdown by one of the best checking lines the NHL has ever seen that were supported by 2 Norris calibre defenseman in front of a Conn Smyth winning goaltender.

If you're unwilling to admit the Ducks' physicality played a huge part in the series, you didn't watch it.

 

[WhiteLight*]

My point is quite clear... the Leafs physicality played a huge part in those series', you may be the only one unwilling to admit that. What is you story for the year the Sens were the 2nd seed?

You bring up a good point though, physicality is an asset for long playoff series', which you're correct, played a part.



If you're unwilling to admit the Ducks' physicality played a huge part in the series, you didn't watch it.

dude, it's because they had the type of personnel that plays that type of game.

The Leafs were Better, the Ducks were Better. Regardless.

Switch Pronger with Charmin Ultra Soft Lidstrom, and the Ducks still destroy the Sens. Obviously.

It's just a playing style. In fact most of the best players in the world are not physical. Not a coincidence.

 

[PatrickEaves]

Your chart has convinced me. Trade Neil.

You have to understand Neil's value isn't his hitting (in quantity or quality), or even his fighting, his point production from the third/forth line, or agitating. It never has been.

His value has always been that he's been able to time his doing the above things when the team needs a spark to wake them up when they are playing poorly, or to sucker the other team into throwing the game away.

When the team is getting curb stomped and losing 3-0 halfway through the game, Neil will somehow find a way to smoke a guy with his head down in the neutral zone to fire the team up for a comeback. Or if the team is holding a slim lead in a playoff game, he'll manage to sucker an idiot into beating the crap out of him so we get a 5 minute PP to ice the game away.

My point is quite clear... the Leafs physicality played a huge part in those series', you may be the only one unwilling to admit that. What is you story for the year the Sens were the 2nd seed?

The Senators played poorly. The Leafs' goaltending was excellent. I've never tried to defend that series because that's the only series in which you can say the Sens "choked".

-

As for the Ducks' physicality. That was not the thing that won that series. They won that series because their strengths matched up well with the Sens strengths (good checking line + two great defensemen + great playoff goaltender vs. a team built around one great scoring line) and they were a better team.

 

[Benjamin]

In all seriousness, Neil is probably the worst all around forward on the team.

Without Neil, Kane goes back for 2nds. He's one of the best, if not the best, at intimidating opposing players. Plus hes an amazing forechecker.

 

[The Expert]

And the series went 6 and/or 7 games.

So a team that are marginally the favorite won in a long playoff series. I'm not sure what your point is.

Forgot something.

If the Leafs were the better team, as you say, and able to show it in a 7 game series, how do you explain the Sens having a winning record against them in 01' and 00' only to lose in the playoffs? As well as a .500 in 02.

 

[Benjamin]

Forgot something.

If the Leafs were the better team, as you say, and able to show it in a 7 game series, how do you explain the Sens having a winning record against them in 01' and 00' only to lose in the playoffs? As well as a .500 in 02.

The Lalime factor.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Oh sorry I forgot Daugavins the 13th forward.

Who, other than Daugavins, is a worse all around forward than Chris Neil on the Senators according to you geniuses?

Considering offense and defense. Not fighting and after the whistle crap. Strictly when the play is going, who is worse than Neil?

edit- Mean posts now deleted

 

[PatrickEaves]

Forgot something.

If the Leafs were the better team, as you say, and able to show it in a 7 game series, how do you explain the Sens having a winning record against them in 01' and 00' only to lose in the playoffs? As well as a .500 in 02.

Because the regular season record between two teams has many factors that also affect winning and losing that the playoffs control for.

Stuff like travel, back-to-back games, and just the ups and downs of a long season. This is why teams aren't seeded based on head to head, they are seeded based on regular season records.

 

[The Expert]

As for the Ducks' physicality. That was not the thing that won that series. They won that series because their strengths matched up well with the Sens strengths (good checking line + two great defensemen + great playoff goaltender vs. a team built around one great scoring line) and they were a better team.

I never said it won them the series. What I said was it played a big part. I'm curious, why are you so afraid to admit that? Hitting and physicality plays a big part in the playoffs period, especially when it came to the series' against the Leafs and Ducks.

Refusing to admit that physicality played a part is a hell of a lot more foolish even than trying to argue that hitting was the difference.

 

[dumbdick]

Maybe I shouldn't have titled the thread should we hit MORE.

Five things I believe true.

1) Hitting, when done properly, leads to some important turnovers and helps win games.
2) Hitting, when done poorly, leads to players being out of position and hurts the team.
3) The sheer number of hits only matters sometimes (in anaheim I'd argue it played an intimidation role).
4) Big bone crushing hits don't by themselves win games. They either change momentum and help the team or they lead to penalties that hurt the team.
5) Hitting matters more in the playoffs.

So....back to my original point, which is we should focus on teaching ALL of our players how to hit smartly during the regular season, so that when the playoffs come, they know how to do it effectively.

 

[Benjamin]

Oh sorry I forgot Daugavins the 13th forward.

Who, other than Daugavins, is a worse all around forward than Chris Neil on the Senators according to you geniuses?

Considering offense and defense. Not fighting and after the whistle crap. Strictly when the play is going, who is worse than Neil?

edit- Mean posts now deleted

Neil is more than a 4th line goon. A lot more.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Neil is more than a 4th line goon. A lot more.

Yep, and the Sens just happen to have a great bottom 6 with very good players, all of which are better than Neil.

 

[Benjamin]

Maybe I shouldn't have titled the thread should we hit MORE.

Three things I believe true.

1) Hitting, when done properly, leads to some important turnovers and helps win games.
2) Hitting, when done poorly, leads to players being out of position and hurts the team.
3) The sheer number of hits only matters sometimes (in anaheim I'd argue it played an intimidation role).
4) Big bone crushing hits don't by themselves win games. They either change momentum and help the team or they lead to penalties that hurt the team.
5) Hitting matters more in the playoffs.

So....back to my original point, which is we should focus on teaching ALL of our players how to hit smartly during the regular season, so that when the playoffs come, they know how to do it effectively.

No. Not all players should be hitting. You need a mix physical and finesse players.

 

[StikTBo]

They shouldn't hit more. Don't need more person acting like Cowen and going for a hit then missing and resulting in a goal against us..

Cowen is still young and he has a lot to learn. But his play has led to goals for.

http://video.senators.nhl.com/videocenter/console?hlp=8473588&event=DAL68&cmpid=embed-share-video

His strength directly led to the rush.

http://video.senators.nhl.com/videocenter/console?hlp=8475174&event=BOS437&cmpid=embed-share-video

Because he previously pushed Horton, he managed to find room to take a shot.

Yes I would like to see more of this

 

[The Expert]

No. Not all players should be hitting. You need a mix physical and finesse players.

You don't need them. Try to tell that to Getzlaf, Perry and Ryan.

That said, I don't want Spezza trying to hit everything that moves. I'm more than happy with him finishing the year with 20 or less hits, due solely to his injury history.

You can certainly have skill and physicality though.

Yep, and the Sens just happen to have a great bottom 6 with very good players, all of which are better than Neil.

And if that had even the slightest hint of truth to it, you wouldn't be waging this solo keyboard war against the rest of the Sens board posters.

 

[PatrickEaves]

I never said it won them the series. What I said was it played a big part. I'm curious, why are you so afraid to admit that? Hitting and physicality plays a big part in the playoffs period, especially when it came to the series' against the Leafs and Ducks.

Refusing to admit that physicality played a part is a hell of a lot more foolish even than trying to argue that hitting was the difference.

Except that's exactly what people are trying to argue. There has been zero studies that have proved a correlation, let alone causation between increased physical play leading to increased winning.

I'm sick and tired of reading tripe that that "physical beast" Gary Roberts "intimidated" the "soft Sens" into capitulating in the playoffs. Because obviously professional hockey players are going to stop playing and give up because they'll been hit a few times in a game.

As far as I'm concerned there are two ways hits can be the most important reason for a playoff series win or defeat:

1) A hit leads to an injury to an important player
2) A hit leads to a suspension of an important player

You don't need them. Try to tell that to Getzlaf, Perry and Ryan.

It wasn't because those three were physical that lead to that team winning the series. They were the third line in terms of ice time on that team. Who was on our third line again? Especially after McAmmond got elbowed by Pronger?

That line's skill not physical play was the difference. Thus, they were a better team.

 

[WhiteLight*]

And if that had even the slightest hint of truth to it, you wouldn't be waging this solo keyboard war against the rest of the Sens board posters.

Yet you still can't tell me who is worse than Neil. Condra perhaps?

Condra was on the ice for like half the goals against that Neil was; I refuse to say he is a worse player.

 

[The Expert]

It wasn't because those three were physical that lead to that team winning the series. They were the third line in terms of ice time on that team. Who was on our third line again? Especially after McAmmond got elbowed by Pronger?

That line's skill not physical play was the difference. Thus, they were a better team.

I wasn't even talking about the series. Read the post I quoted and mine again. It was purely a discussion of whether you need physical players and finesse players on a team or not.

For the record, I'm done discussing playoff series' if you refuse to admit that physicality even played a part. You've clearly let your anger about Gary Roberts cloud your judgment, it's pretty obvious.

 

[dumbdick]

Except that's exactly what people are trying to argue. There has been zero studies that have proved a correlation, let alone causation between increased physical play leading to increased winning.

Is this statement based on a thorough meta-analysis of all relevant literature in the top-cited hockey statistics publications? Even the Armenian Hockey Statistics Review (AHSR)? Because I could have sworn I saw something in there in last month's issue.

 

[WhiteLight*]

For people who think I'm anti-hitting, well I'm not. It's entertaining, and I certainly like Neil. My favorite forward in the league is Gabriel Landeskog and he's an absolute wrecking ball.

That said, players can be very effective without hitting. Where were you guys last year? Does Erik Karlsson not ring a bell? How many Norris Trophies does Lidstrom have again?

That^ can't be ignored.

Players have to play to their strengths. Neil's puck skills and hockey sense are lacking, therefore he needs to play the way he does.

Spezza is one hit away from a back injury. Gonchar is old and fragile. Karlsson and Condra are puny. Making these guys hit and stray away from what makes then successful is a no no.

 

[Emerica]

Without Neil, Kane goes back for 2nds. He's one of the best, if not the best, at intimidating opposing players. Plus hes an amazing forechecker.

Nice.

 

[ATdaisuki]

i'm with mandy on this one. not all players have to hit all the time. some players have better stick work than others. i feel that some of the posts in here are arguing the same way as people that pull up karlsson's hits and blocked shots as proof that he can't play d.

hitting is necessary, but not everyone has to do it. not everyone can be an effective hitter, so teach them to play in other ways.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I'd argue that strength is more important than physical play and infact go hand in hand.

If we have big strong forwards, they'd be able to not be rattled by physical players and impose it if need be.

Example? Someone in this thread indicated Michalek had 36 hits thru 77 reg season games then 15 hits in 7 games.

His nature is not to lay players out but he can play within that environment and can adjust to it.

With players like Noesen, Zibanejad, Silfverberg coming up, we need not worry. Hitting is not a key aspect in the game but it is when needed. That's why Boston was so heralded a couple seasons ago because they can beat you using finesse, speed, skill and physicality, not all at once, but when the situation arose for each certain case.

P.S. Neil is one of the most important players on this team. He can swing the momentum of the game by one huge hit. With that being said, he has perfected it. Not everyone can go out there and do what he does around the league let alone in our team.

 

[ColePens]

Hey folks.. just stopping in to ask nicely if you could please use the report post function and let mods take care of things. We will take care of it from there. If not, utilize the ignore user function.

Happy Holidays all!

 

[The Expert]

We need a ColeSens.