Should Ilya Kovalchuk be inducted to the HHOF?

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think, if you were starting out a franchise, you'd definitely take Kovalchuk over Neely. Kovalchuk could do anything offensively, and he could do it on a bad team (which Neely could not -- Vancouver). To be effective, Neely needed some other star-level players around him.

Now, it might be a different story if you had an established franchise with a young, star center already in place, and you needed some grit and scoring on the wing. Then, you'd obviously take Neely.

Would you really want to start a franchise with a puck hog who plays no defense rather than a proto-type power forward?

 

[Big Phil]

We all saw him play and I think we all can agree that he was HHOF-calibre. But is his career enough? I'd like to argue it is.

Olympic Gold
Olympic MVP
Maurice Richard Trophy
WHC Gold (including GWG)
WHC MVP (the same year)
816 games and 816 pts in the NHL
Five top-10 finishes in points
Awesome career back home in the KHL with 298 games and 327 pts. Two Gagarin's and a Gagarin MVP.

I like Ilya, I really do. He was fun to watch and it is forgotten sometimes because he bolted for the KHL when he was 30 and shortly after his career started another Russian with explosive talent sort of overshadowed him.

That being said, some of the things on your list don't mean anything. Olympic Gold when you barely beat a German team and when no country had their best? Irrelevant. Olympic MVP? Irrelevant. Ditto for the Worlds.

Stuff like the Richard trophy, his point totals and his goal scoring are what would get him in if anything. I am just afraid he left the NHL too soon and didn't do enough while he was here. Barely played in the playoffs.

By the way, Patrick Marleau has about as much business being in the HHOF as Andreychuk does. Neither belong.

 

[Theokritos]

That being said, some of the things on your list don't mean anything. Olympic Gold when you barely beat a German team and when no country had their best? Irrelevant. Olympic MVP? Irrelevant. Ditto for the Worlds.

I beg to differ. Olympic achievements over AHL-calibre opposition are indeed pretty irrelevant, but the Worlds are a different animal. Sure, they're not a best-on-best tournament, but if you look at the roster of 2009 Team Canada...

Doan – Spezza – Heatley
Roy – Stamkos – St. Louis
Neal – Zajac – Fisher
Lombardi – Horcoff – Armstrong
Upshall

Hamhuis – Weber
Doughty – Vlasic
Phillips – White
Coburn

Roloson
(Mason)​

...you can't tell me that team isn't on par with a good NHL playoff team. Becoming an All-star and "Best Forward" at the Worlds is not the same as getting the same honours at the 1998-2014 Olympics, but it's also way more than any Olympic honours in 2018.

That said, I agree this is not going to be the thing that tips the scale in favour of Kovalchuk's HHOF case. And that's fair. But if we call achievements like these fundamentally "irrelevant" then a whole lot of achievements in the NHL should also be irrelevant.

 

[trentmccleary]

Are these separate statements or are you saying he had free reign to pad his stats on the powerplay?

Either way, please explain to me how that is his fault. That is a coaching decision to me, and if the coach gave him free reign it was for a reason. Sure I will never give kovy credit for even THINKING of the defensive zone, but a coach forcing him to do so (Bowman with yzerman anybody?) could have improved his defensive stats theoretically.

Look at Kane vs. Toews, different players used under different circumstances.

They're separate statements.
It's a not a matter of whether it's his fault. It's a question about what his numbers would have looked like if he were playing to win or if his team were playing to win instead of padding his stats.

He has a lot more Top-10's than Iginla. In 2002, Iginla's bad team gave him the 'Kovalchuk treatment' for the last 30 games of the season because they had nothing else to play for and he won an Art Ross. He never did again and rarely challenged for it either, because he was playing to win. How much would Kovalchuk's numbers have decline if he'd played on good teams?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I think, if you were starting out a franchise, you'd definitely take Kovalchuk over Neely. Kovalchuk could do anything offensively, and he could do it on a bad team (which Neely could not -- Vancouver). To be effective, Neely needed some other star-level players around him.

Now, it might be a different story if you had an established franchise with a young, star center already in place, and you needed some grit and scoring on the wing. Then, you'd obviously take Neely.

first off, Neely put up 55g in 76, and 51g in 69 BEFORE Oates came to town.

secondly, stop acting like Kovalchuk was on an island...He had Savard, Hossa and Kozlov in Atlanta and Parise, Elias in Jersey.

Kovalchuk was a completely 1 dimensional player that brought zero to the ice unless he was scoring.

He also took his ball and went home completely screwing over the Devils in the process.

 

[Legionnaire11]

We are talking about the NHL Hall of Fame here.

(he should be in, but he won't be - at least for a while)

I agree that he won't be in anytime soon, if ever. But I have to point out, it is not the NHL HOF, it's the Hockey HOF and there are several members who have never even played in the NHL.

 

[Fantomas]

I agree that he won't be in anytime soon, if ever. But I have to point out, it is not the NHL HOF, it's the Hockey HOF and there are several members who have never even played in the NHL.

It's the NHL hall of fame with a few token non-NHLers.

 

[Killion]

It's the NHL hall of fame with a few token non-NHLers.

... and therein lies the problem; between what your saying & what Legionnaire is saying. They really need to issue a "Mission Statement" that defines their mandate's & criteria's. They just seem to be steaming along on the currents, catching whatever favorable & politically correct winds & whims of the day. I think if you ask they'll tell you "Hockey Hall of Fame", universal, all encompassing, all levels, gender equality etc.... Ok..... So wheres the WHA? Wheres an expanded International Section including player, officials, builders categories? Where are all the Minor Leagues? Senior & Intermediate, Junior Hockey? University & NCAA?... You'll then be told that no, in many of those categories, they have their own Hockey Hall's of Fame... Yet they have inducted or simply wont induct, wont look at people who absolutely should be in a "Universal HHOF"..... Needs to be straightened out. Its too late now to be deciding its to be only open, the exclusive domain of NHL Players, Officials, Builders... others who have contributed at the grass roots & amateur levels already inducted into the Builders Category, Women of course, a sprinkling of International Players who never played in the NHL.

 

[Big Phil]

I beg to differ. Olympic achievements over AHL-calibre opposition are indeed pretty irrelevant, but the Worlds are a different animal. Sure, they're not a best-on-best tournament, but if you look at the roster of 2009 Team Canada...

Doan – Spezza – Heatley
Roy – Stamkos – St. Louis
Neal – Zajac – Fisher
Lombardi – Horcoff – Armstrong
Upshall

Hamhuis – Weber
Doughty – Vlasic
Phillips – White
Coburn

Roloson
(Mason)​

...you can't tell me that team isn't on par with a good NHL playoff team. Becoming an All-star and "Best Forward" at the Worlds is not the same as getting the same honours at the 1998-2014 Olympics, but it's also way more than any Olympic honours in 2018.

That said, I agree this is not going to be the thing that tips the scale in favour of Kovalchuk's HHOF case. And that's fair. But if we call achievements like these fundamentally "irrelevant" then a whole lot of achievements in the NHL should also be irrelevant.

Not bad. Heatley, Weber and Doughty are the only ones who were Olympians in 2010. Stamkos and St. Louis are two names that easily could have and a longshot is Spezza. Come to think of it that is one of Canada's better teams at the Worlds. That being said, you are going to be judged by what you do when there is a true best on best tournament. Not one that is 25% full. At the end of the day you aren't remembered for the Worlds when your HHOF resume comes up.

 

[Canadiens1958]

... and therein lies the problem; between what your saying & what Legionnaire is saying. They really need to issue a "Mission Statement" that defines their mandate's & criteria's. They just seem to be steaming along on the currents, catching whatever favorable & politically correct winds & whims of the day. I think if you ask they'll tell you "Hockey Hall of Fame", universal, all encompassing, all levels, gender equality etc.... Ok..... So wheres the WHA? Wheres an expanded International Section including player, officials, builders categories? Where are all the Minor Leagues? Senior & Intermediate, Junior Hockey? University & NCAA?... You'll then be told that no, in many of those categories, they have their own Hockey Hall's of Fame... Yet they have inducted or simply wont induct, wont look at people who absolutely should be in a "Universal HHOF"..... Needs to be straightened out. Its too late now to be deciding its to be only open, the exclusive domain of NHL Players, Officials, Builders... others who have contributed at the grass roots & amateur levels already inducted into the Builders Category, Women of course, a sprinkling of International Players who never played in the NHL.

By definition a HOF is reactive not proactive, established long after the sport is part of the cultural mainstream. a HOF will never be absolute since its fundamental nature requires fluidity.

 

[The Panther]

first off, Neely put up 55g in 76, and 51g in 69 BEFORE Oates came to town.

secondly, stop acting like Kovalchuk was on an island...He had Savard, Hossa and Kozlov in Atlanta and Parise, Elias in Jersey.

Kovalchuk was a completely 1 dimensional player that brought zero to the ice unless he was scoring.

He also took his ball and went home completely screwing over the Devils in the process.

You might be sensitive about this.

I'm not saying I like Kovalchuk -- I much preferred Neely as a player. Also, I didn't mention Oates anywhere in my post, so put down the Kool-Aid.

I'm merely saying that Neely is more of a(n ultra elite) complimentary player, while Kovalchuk is more the guy who goes out and puts up big numbers regardless of his situation.

 

[Killion]

By definition a HOF is reactive not proactive, established long after the sport is part of the cultural mainstream. a HOF will never be absolute since its fundamental nature requires fluidity.

Yes, this a very good point. Can you cite any examples of tidal changes, the
re-set of criteria, expansion of scope with MLB/NFL & their respective H'sOF?.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yes, this a very good point. Can you cite any examples of tidal changes, the
re-set of criteria, expansion of scope with MLB/NFL & their respective H'sOF?.

Yes, MLB recognition of the colour barrier, the evolution from a pitching / finesse game to the power game popularized by Babe Ruth, the addition of the speed game -Maury Wills, the recognition of the relief pitcher -Hoyt Wilhelm, the return of power middle infielders -Cal Ripken. The recognition of scandal - Black Sox, Pete Rose and the steriod era.

NFL - the recognition of the change from one platoon to two platoon to a multi-platoon game driven by situational players.

Changes in the value of specific positions in the game. Quarterback is a relatively new position, defence in the fifties thru the early 1970s was middle linebacker driven.Rise and fallof the importance of certain positions - left tackle replacing pulling guards as the narrowing of the hash marks changed the emphasis offensively from rushing to passing while adding importance to the kicking game. West coast offence players are held to different standards than fifties offences.

Just a quick overview.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Kariya is essentially inducted on the same numbers. Yeah, he has about 180 games more, but he wasn't someone you cared about while on the Predators or the Blues. Everyone could see that he was a different player. Which is funny, because you'd think the new rules would've given him a new high. For some reason, it really didn't. His eight seasons on the Ducks was what got him in.

Three Lady Byng's but nothing else, while Kovy has a Richard, a WHC MVP and an OG MVP and a solid playoff history. Kariya was known as a rubbish playoff performer. Pretty good international record, though.

 

[KMart27]

Kariya is essentially inducted on the same numbers. Yeah, he has about 180 games more, but he wasn't someone you cared about while on the Predators or the Blues. Everyone could see that he was a different player. Which is funny, because you'd think the new rules would've given him a new high. For some reason, it really didn't. His eight seasons on the Ducks was what got him in.

Three Lady Byng's but nothing else, while Kovy has a Richard, a WHC MVP and an OG MVP and a solid playoff history. Kariya was known as a rubbish playoff performer. Pretty good international record, though.

Three first all star teams and two seconds is not nothing else. It beats Kovalchuk's one first and one second. Those two MVPs for Kovalchuk just won't really matter. Per game, Kariya and Kovalchuk's playoff stats are pretty much identical. Neither has a significant playoff resume.

 

[The Panther]

Kariya... wasn't someone you cared about while on the Predators or the Blues.

I don't get why everyone says this about his time on the Preds. He was awesome. He was leading scorer both seasons, team captain, and his team was great. He was fantastic. His two seasons in Nashville were two of the very best of his career. It's not his fault if the hockey media just wasn't paying attention.

Kariya was known as a rubbish playoff performer.

No, he wasn't, that's revisionist nonsense. Not counting the '03 Cup run with Anaheim, Kariya scored 27 points in 25 playoff games. Then, you add on the 2003 run to the Finals, which, you know, isn't a "rubbish" performance when he captained a team to the Finals. The Ducks were all about the defence that spring (as it was, Kariya was one point off leading the Ducks in scoring that Cup run, despite being concussed by Stevens on a late hit).

As mentioned above, you also completely overlooked the fact that Kariya was FIVE times a 1st of 2nd-team All Star, which is incredible.

Both Kariya and Kovalchuk should be in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Boxscore]

I wouldn't take Kovalchuk over Neely to start a franchise. Kovalchuk is a soloist, no thanks. That said...

Kovalchuk is one talented hombre. And, I don't think Neely should be in the Hall either.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

As a goal scorer maybe they are close (Kovalchuk is better though), but overall? Neely never came top 10 in pts even one time. Only came top 20 in hart voting 1x. Yes Neely was physical and better defensively, but zero top 10 pt finishes and such a pathetic hart record isn't going to be covered up by some defense. And besides, Kovalchuk proved during his time in NJ that he could play a responsible defensive game while still coming top 5 in pts, something Neely never came close to sniffing..

Kovalchuk is/was a better player, I don't think it's particularly close either.

 

[Staniowski]

As a goal scorer maybe they are close (Kovalchuk is better though), but overall? Neely never came top 10 in pts even one time. Only came top 20 in hart voting 1x. Yes Neely was physical and better defensively, but zero top 10 pt finishes and such a pathetic hart record isn't going to be covered up by some defense. And besides, Kovalchuk proved during his time in NJ that he could play a responsible defensive game while still coming top 5 in pts, something Neely never came close to sniffing..

Kovalchuk is/was a better player, I don't think it's particularly close either.

I'm not advocating for Neely, but the way you are describing him is not correct and very misleading.

The reason he didn't get many Hart votes during his career is very simple. He missed huge chunks of time due to injury during almost all of his prime years. In 1990 - 1991, he played 69 games and finished 2nd in GPG and 10th in PPG. In the following 5 seasons (his prime years and, due to his injuries, his final years), he never played 50 games in any season.

In his best season, 1993 - 1994, he scored 50 goals in 49 games (which is the 6th most GPG of all-time, at least since 1930), and finished 2nd in PPG behind only Gretzky.

Neely was a very good player, feared, and hugely admired by people in the NHL and by his legions of fans.

 

[frisco]

No, he wasn't, that's revisionist nonsense. Not counting the '03 Cup run with Anaheim, Kariya scored 27 points in 25 playoff games. Then, you add on the 2003 run to the Finals, which, you know, isn't a "rubbish" performance when he captained a team to the Finals. The Ducks were all about the defence that spring (as it was, Kariya was one point off leading the Ducks in scoring that Cup run, despite being concussed by Stevens on a late hit).

Kariya only had 39 points in 46 playoff games. That's a shockingly low total of games and not a lot of production considering he's a HOFer. He and Kovalchuk both didn't make it to the dance enough or do much when they were there to be serious HOF candidates.

My Best-Carey

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Kariya only had 39 points in 46 playoff games. That's a shockingly low total of games and not a lot of production considering he's a HOFer. He and Kovalchuk both didn't make it to the dance enough or do much when they were there to be serious HOF candidates.

yup.

NHL Playoffs

			Lg	GP	G	A	PTS
Career			NHL	49	21	24	45

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]

that's marcel dionne's playoff stat line, btw.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

and for good measure one of the worst playoff performers of all time, markus naslund:

NHL Playoffs

	GP	G	A	PTS
Career	52	14	22	36

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

As a goal scorer maybe they are close (Kovalchuk is better though), but overall? Neely never came top 10 in pts even one time. Only came top 20 in hart voting 1x. Yes Neely was physical and better defensively, but zero top 10 pt finishes and such a pathetic hart record isn't going to be covered up by some defense. And besides, Kovalchuk proved during his time in NJ that he could play a responsible defensive game while still coming top 5 in pts, something Neely never came close to sniffing..

Kovalchuk is/was a better player, I don't think it's particularly close either.

"Kovalchuk is/was a better player, I don't think it's particularly close either."

I'm going to call this evaluation inaccurate.

 

[The Panther]

Kariya only had 39 points in 46 playoff games. That's a shockingly low total of games and not a lot of production considering he's a HOFer. He and Kovalchuk both didn't make it to the dance enough or do much when they were there to be serious HOF candidates.

That's not shockingly low at all. It's (a) a small sample size, and (b) in the dead-puck era. For that era, it's quite good.

Again, Kariya was one ONE POINT away from leading his team in scoring when they went to the Finals in 2003. The leading scorers, Oates and Sykora, had 13 points in 21 games. This was the height of the DPE, when a team scoring 2 goals per game like Anaheim could make the 7th game of the Finals.

As for not playing a lot of playoff games, that's what happens when you enter the League on a 2nd-year expansion team. The Mighty Ducks missed the playoffs in 6 of Kariya's first 8 seasons. But in their first-ever appearance (1997), they went as far as, say, Alex Ovechkin has so far in his entire career (with Kariya scoring 7 goals in 11 games). In only their third time to appear in the playoffs, they made the Finals and nearly won it all.

The Predators did kinda crap-out quickly, however, in the 2006 and 2007 playoffs, I'll give you that...

 

[frisco]

As for not playing a lot of playoff games, that's what happens when you enter the League on a 2nd-year expansion team. The Mighty Ducks missed the playoffs in 6 of Kariya's first 8 seasons.

Almost every high pick in NHL history has joined a bad team as that's who gets the high picks. For example, Dale Hawerchuk joined an abysmal Jets team as the #1 overall. They basically had zero chance of advancing beyond a playoff round with Calgary and Edmonton in their division for the entire 80's. Hawerchuk has been often criticized for his lack of playoff success. Despite this, Hawerchuk ended up playing over twice the amount of playoff games as did Kariya. Making the playoffs and winning Cups is the name of the game. It is up to the great players to get them there. Kovalchuk and Kariya didn't get the job done.

My Best-Carey