Should Holland be replaced as GM? (and moved to front office)

[WingedWheel1987]

25 point Darren Helm has sure been consistent and reliable.

He is another negative value player clogging up this decaying corpse of a roster.

 

[njx9]

Helm won't suck, he's been one of our most consistent and reliable players for years. He "complained" about his role not being clearly defined. He did not say he will only accept playing in the top 9, on a scoring line or in an offensive role. He did not say he'd rather play 10 minutes a game with Vanek and Sheahan instead of 15 minutes a game together with Glendening against the opposition's best line.

I like your crystal ball. Though 'consistent and reliable' is, mostly, meaningless, compared to 'talented' or 'good' or 'can contribute offensively'.

I also have no honest clue where you're getting "10 minutes with Vanek and Sheahan" when Sheahan's been at basically 15 minutes a night since he joined the Red Wings.

But we're moving the goal posts, given that "I also doubt Holland would order Blashill to give Helm a certain amount of icetime just because he's signed to a new contract" was the objection point. His 'defined role' likely carries with it an icetime expectation, given that every role on the Wings carries with it an icetime expectation. *shrug*

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

When was the last time our 4th line got 8 minutes a night? One of the most common criticisms around here is that Glendening/Miller/etc get too much icetime. Helm-Glenny-Miller/Ott could be a very good shutdown line that gets 12-15 minutes per game. Helm is signed and I seriously doubt he would throw a tantrum if he's not playing together with Vanek and Sheahan, and I also doubt Holland would order Blashill to give Helm a certain amount of icetime just because he's signed to a new contract. If Helm is in the top 9 it's because Blashill thinks that's best for the team, not because of caphits.

But I forget I'm on the board where everyone thinks every injury is just part of a conspiracy to reduce the roster logjam. Nothing is ever what it seems, right? Let me just grab my tinfoil hat..

yeh man if you think in professional sports, a players contract has absolutely ZERO effect on how much they're played than by all means that is your choice

 

[Pavels Dog]

I like your crystal ball. Though 'consistent and reliable' is, mostly, meaningless, compared to 'talented' or 'good' or 'can contribute offensively'.

Lol at Helm not being good, talented or able to contribute offensively. I'm pretty sure 30 out of 30 NHL GMs and coaches would disagree with that. Being consistent is one of the most valuable traits a player can have at the NHL level. Talent only gets you so far (talking to you Linus Omark, Ville Leino and so on).

I also have no honest clue where you're getting "10 minutes with Vanek and Sheahan" when Sheahan's been at basically 15 minutes a night since he joined the Red Wings.

But we're moving the goal posts, given that "I also doubt Holland would order Blashill to give Helm a certain amount of icetime just because he's signed to a new contract" was the objection point. His 'defined role' likely carries with it an icetime expectation, given that every role on the Wings carries with it an icetime expectation. *shrug*

Okay so, why would Helm be upset with 14-15 minutes with Glendening instead of 14-15 minutes with Sheahan and Vanek? And what power does Helm really have to influence things? Why would Holland and Blashill be so afraid to not keep Helm 100% happy that they actually do something detrimental for the team? Helm wanted a more clearly defined role but was that role really playing with Vanek and Sheahan on some kinda sort of maybe scoring line, but not really, and sort of kinda defensive line but not really..? Or was that role playing on a major shutdown line together with Glendening (who he has been very good with in the past)?
I'm just speculating, maybe Holland and Blashill have only one priority next season; keeping Helm happy. That would surprise me but then again I have yet to buy into the Swedish Mafia and Holland being part of the Illuminati so maybe I'm just clueless.

yeh man if you think in professional sports, a players contract has absolutely ZERO effect on how much they're played than by all means that is your choice

Crazy, crazy thought here.. stay with me... maybe, maybe... guys that are good, get more icetime.. and get bigger contracts.. than guys who are bad and don't play as much? This is a wild idea that I've been pondering, kinda controversial I know.

I'm sure Weiss' contract was the reason he was on the 4th line, I'm sure Helm was in the top 6 like 2 years ago because he was about to get a big contract 2 seasons later, I'm sure Nyquist got less icetime last season because he got a bigger contract.. I just don't see the logic in how this all fits together though?

 

[aar000n]

25 point Darren Helm has sure been consistent and reliable.

He is another negative value player clogging up this decaying corpse of a roster.

Why did we even resign him? Fast players with stone hands are a dime a dozen. add that with the youth talent and the contact is pointless.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Easier for who? You, internet poster guy? Absolutely. Them, lifelong NHL scouts who've spent decades watching guys in non-NHL environments who've made careers detecting exactly that? Not really.

So people do not like having as much information as possible when making a decision?

 

[jkutswings]

Lol at Helm not being good, talented or able to contribute offensively. I'm pretty sure 30 out of 30 NHL GMs and coaches would disagree with that. Being consistent is one of the most valuable traits a player can have at the NHL level. Talent only gets you so far (talking to you Linus Omark, Ville Leino and so on).


Okay so, why would Helm be upset with 14-15 minutes with Glendening instead of 14-15 minutes with Sheahan and Vanek? And what power does Helm really have to influence things? Why would Holland and Blashill be so afraid to not keep Helm 100% happy that they actually do something detrimental for the team? Helm wanted a more clearly defined role but was that role really playing with Vanek and Sheahan on some kinda sort of maybe scoring line, but not really, and sort of kinda defensive line but not really..? Or was that role playing on a major shutdown line together with Glendening (who he has been very good with in the past)?
I'm just speculating, maybe Holland and Blashill have only one priority next season; keeping Helm happy. That would surprise me but then again I have yet to buy into the Swedish Mafia and Holland being part of the Illuminati so maybe I'm just clueless.


Crazy, crazy thought here.. stay with me... maybe, maybe... guys that are good, get more icetime.. and get bigger contracts.. than guys who are bad and don't play as much? This is a wild idea that I've been pondering, kinda controversial I know.

I'm sure Weiss' contract was the reason he was on the 4th line, I'm sure Helm was in the top 6 like 2 years ago because he was about to get a big contract 2 seasons later, I'm sure Nyquist got less icetime last season because he got a bigger contract.. I just don't see the logic in how this all fits together though?

Darren Helm is a 4th liner getting paid like a borderline 2nd liner because Holland is allergic to risk. And as for players having influence over their status within the organization, the corpse of Dan Cleary says hi.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Lol at Helm not being good, talented or able to contribute offensively. I'm pretty sure 30 out of 30 NHL GMs and coaches would disagree with that. Being consistent is one of the most valuable traits a player can have at the NHL level. Talent only gets you so far (talking to you Linus Omark, Ville Leino and so on).


Okay so, why would Helm be upset with 14-15 minutes with Glendening instead of 14-15 minutes with Sheahan and Vanek? And what power does Helm really have to influence things? Why would Holland and Blashill be so afraid to not keep Helm 100% happy that they actually do something detrimental for the team? Helm wanted a more clearly defined role but was that role really playing with Vanek and Sheahan on some kinda sort of maybe scoring line, but not really, and sort of kinda defensive line but not really..? Or was that role playing on a major shutdown line together with Glendening (who he has been very good with in the past)?
I'm just speculating, maybe Holland and Blashill have only one priority next season; keeping Helm happy. That would surprise me but then again I have yet to buy into the Swedish Mafia and Holland being part of the Illuminati so maybe I'm just clueless.


Crazy, crazy thought here.. stay with me... maybe, maybe... guys that are good, get more icetime.. and get bigger contracts.. than guys who are bad and don't play as much? This is a wild idea that I've been pondering, kinda controversial I know.

I'm sure Weiss' contract was the reason he was on the 4th line, I'm sure Helm was in the top 6 like 2 years ago because he was about to get a big contract 2 seasons later, I'm sure Nyquist got less icetime last season because he got a bigger contract.. I just don't see the logic in how this all fits together though?

when players sign bi contracts those clubs have a vested interest in getting good return on their investment,

does that feeling go on for ever, no, but its 100% plays a role

as for players who're good getting big contracts, also not 100% true as other factors are always at play, ie desperation, emotion, greed, etc

 

[PuckDynasty]

Helm won't suck, he's been one of our most consistent and reliable players for years. He "complained" about his role not being clearly defined. He did not say he will only accept playing in the top 9, on a scoring line or in an offensive role. He did not say he'd rather play 10 minutes a game with Vanek and Sheahan instead of 15 minutes a game together with Glendening against the opposition's best line.

The word for Helm is safe. He had a halfway decent season once, doesn't really excel at anything, doesn't totally suck at anything, puts defense ahead of offense, he says all the right things, he's "good in the room", and best of all, not a young player. He'll be a Red Wing for life, transitioning to the front office once his playing days are done, which will be 5 years after he had any usefulness whatsoever.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Helm is banking money off his 2008 and 2009 campaigns. He'll of a couple seasons from a pleasant surprise, but he hasn't done much of anything since.

 

[njx9]

Lol at Helm not being good, talented or able to contribute offensively. I'm pretty sure 30 out of 30 NHL GMs and coaches would disagree with that. Being consistent is one of the most valuable traits a player can have at the NHL level. Talent only gets you so far (talking to you Linus Omark, Ville Leino and so on).

Being good is always more valuable. That said, I was just using your own, less than complimentary words about him. If his best attribute is 'consistency', well, that says a lot about our team.

Okay so, why would Helm be upset with 14-15 minutes with Glendening instead of 14-15 minutes with Sheahan and Vanek? And what power does Helm really have to influence things? Why would Holland and Blashill be so afraid to not keep Helm 100% happy that they actually do something detrimental for the team? Helm wanted a more clearly defined role but was that role really playing with Vanek and Sheahan on some kinda sort of maybe scoring line, but not really, and sort of kinda defensive line but not really..? Or was that role playing on a major shutdown line together with Glendening (who he has been very good with in the past)?
I'm just speculating, maybe Holland and Blashill have only one priority next season; keeping Helm happy. That would surprise me but then again I have yet to buy into the Swedish Mafia and Holland being part of the Illuminati so maybe I'm just clueless.

Again, you've moved the goal posts. I disagreed with your assertion that specific play time wasn't part of his contract negotiation. It's entirely possible that KH thought that an offensively limited 4th liner was worth a 5 year contract and that Helm agreed with that being his role. However, if that's the case, then the FA market and GMing in general has pretty clearly passed Holland by.

Edit: I'd just add that Holland does have a history of doing things that were detrimental to the team, just to keep a player happy. See Dan Cleary.

 

[Syckle78]

Not sure what his contract has to do with where he plays. Blashill will play the guys where he wants to, really doubt he's got everyone's caphit in mind when making lines. Insert a kid on that 3rd line and it probably gets less icetime than the supposed "4th" line anyway.

So then we have a 3.8m 4th liner. Silver linings!

 

[Pavels Dog]

So then we have a 3.8m 4th liner. Silver linings!

And a .925m 1st liner! Funny how salary structure can work for a team in a generational shift huh?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

And a .925m 1st liner! Funny how salary structure can work for a team in a generational shift huh?

What sort.of GM would sign a guy for 20 million onky to play 8 mins a night on the 4th line

Those players are named drew miller and make 850k on one year deals...

 

[njx9]

And a .925m 1st liner! Funny how salary structure can work for a team in a generational shift huh?

So it's ok to *badly* overpay a 4th line player for 5 years because you have a guy on an ELC for half that time? That's pretty tortured logic.

 

[Pavels Dog]

So it's ok to *badly* overpay a 4th line player for 5 years because you have a guy on an ELC for half that time? That's pretty tortured logic.

"a guy" in this 5-year scenario is Larkin, Mantha, Svechnikov, AA, Ouellet, Bertuzzi, Russo, Saarijarvi, Cholowski etc. all or some of which will be very cheap assets for us the coming years, while expensive veteran contracts like Z, Howard, Kronner, E, Franzen and Green will come off the books. Helm costs the same money whether he's 1st line or 4th line. It doesn't become a better contract if he's given 20 minutes a night in the top 6 and is 'meh' instead of being 12-15 minutes per night on one of the better 4th lines in the league. Team performance is the most important thing, much more important than never having someone in the bottom 6 making more money than someone in the top 6.

 

[jkutswings]

And a .925m 1st liner! Funny how salary structure can work for a team in a generational shift huh?

Dear Apples, please meet Oranges.

Dylan Larkin is on a cheap contract because he just started playing NHL hockey. If he continues to be worth his salt, that number will escalate very very quickly.

Darren Helm, based on his age, past production, and style of play, is nearing the end of his useful years as an NHL hockey player. Not a very smart time to grant him a long-term contract, especially when there are multiple young players that are showing enough good play to start granting them more ice time.

When a young productive player is on an ELC, you count your lucky stars. When a role player that has speed and not much else is nearing 30, you let him walk, not bring him back for 5 more years at a hefty raise.

 

[njx9]

"a guy" in this 5-year scenario is Larkin, Mantha, Svechnikov, AA, Ouellet, Bertuzzi, Russo, Saarijarvi, Cholowski etc. all or some of which will be very cheap assets for us the coming years, while expensive veteran contracts like Z, Howard, Kronner, E, Franzen and Green will come off the books. Helm costs the same money whether he's 1st line or 4th line. It doesn't become a better contract if he's given 20 minutes a night in the top 6 and is 'meh' instead of being 12-15 minutes per night on one of the better 4th lines in the league. Team performance is the most important thing, much more important than never having someone in the bottom 6 making more money than someone in the top 6.

Why do you think it has anything to do with paying a guy in the bottom 6 more than the guys in the top 6? It's poor asset allocation. There's a reason grinders in the NHL don't typically rate lifetime contracts, at just under $4m AAV. Further, the Wings are in a horrendous cap crunch right now, and it doesn't get better next year. It might get better the following year, depending on what awful contracts and extensions get handed out to marginal players in the meantime, but then you're extending Larkin, and it seems foolish to think he'll still be making what he's making now.

I dunno. If you're giving offensively limited 4th line players 5 years and near $20m, you're doing something very, very wrong as a GM, regardless of how many ELCs you'll probably block out of the roster anyways.

 

[Henkka]

Darren Helm is maybe the most important contract to keep that playoff streak alive (our owner's plan Holland succeeds).

He is that "Dan Cleary", a versatile 7th forward tool which normal position is at defensive line, but when injuries will hit, can be promoted to any offensive line.

He is the tool which maximizes regular season success. We don't rdally miss a beat on injury occasions, Helm is one big reason for that. Holland can't find any better to our organizational plan.

This kind of player is very important for coaches. Just go and ask from maniacs like Babcock.

 

[Heaton]

Darren Helm is maybe the most important contract to keep that playoff streak alive (our owner's plan Holland succeeds).

He is that "Dan Cleary", a versatile 7th forward tool which normal position is at defensive line, but when injuries will hit, can be promoted to any offensive line.

He is the tool which maximizes regular season success. We don't rdally miss a beat on injury occasions, Helm is one big reason for that. Holland can't find any better to our organizational plan.

This kind of player is very important for coaches. Just go and ask from maniacs like Babcock.

Except he won't be that important for the duration of his contract. I would have rather we just sign Jason Chimera for 2 seasons, it would've been a much better deal to make. But Holland gave Helm the loyalty special.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Darren Helm is maybe the most important contract to keep that playoff streak alive (our owner's plan Holland succeeds).

He is that "Dan Cleary", a versatile 7th forward tool which normal position is at defensive line, but when injuries will hit, can be promoted to any offensive line.

He is the tool which maximizes regular season success. We don't rdally miss a beat on injury occasions, Helm is one big reason for that. Holland can't find any better to our organizational plan.

This kind of player is very important for coaches. Just go and ask from maniacs like Babcock.

Dan Cleary was a lot better offensive hockey player...

 

[Frk It]

Darren Helm is maybe the most important contract to keep that playoff streak alive (our owner's plan Holland succeeds).

He is that "Dan Cleary", a versatile 7th forward tool which normal position is at defensive line, but when injuries will hit, can be promoted to any offensive line.

He is the tool which maximizes regular season success. We don't rdally miss a beat on injury occasions, Helm is one big reason for that. Holland can't find any better to our organizational plan.

This kind of player is very important for coaches. Just go and ask from maniacs like Babcock.

Or sign a bargain guy for the bottom 6, and if an injury happens call up a talented prospect on an ELC for the top 6.

 

[Henkka]

Or sign a bargain guy for the bottom 6, and if an injury happens call up a talented prospect on an ELC for the top 6.

Less stability.

And who's that bargain guy who has:

- Top60 individual corsi
- Top40 Corsi%
- Can play wing and Center
- Wins 51-52% of his faceoffs
- Is one of fastest players in the league
- Is a decent penalty killer
- Can play net-front role on offensive lines.
- Has one of league best transition numbers, how many of his def.zone starts end to offensive zone.

 

[Heaton]

Less stability.

And who's that bargain guy who has:

- Top60 individual corsi
- Top40 Corsi%
- Can play wing and Center
- Wins 51-52% of his faceoffs
- Is one of fastest players in the league
- Is a decent penalty killer
- Can play net-front role on offensive lines.
- Has one of league best transition numbers, how many of his def.zone starts end to offensive zone.

He won 39 faceoffs last year, and we have probably a half a dozen guys who can play net front on the powerplay, it's not like Darren Helm is super effective there.

He's useless on offensive lines, we need real top 6 production, not 30 points a season. For a team that is horrendous offensively and we just lost our best offensive player, we still think Darren Helm is an answer to our offensive problems? Jesus. Jason Chimera would have been better.