Should have let Nylander sit or traded him for defense.

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Menzinger

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By top heavy do you mean investing in forwards at the expense of defense and goaltending?

No question teams will have expensive high-end talent and then need cheaper options for cap reasons, that part is inevitable but Leafs plan on investing an unequal portion % on just expensive forwards, when Leafs Dcore is already and issue now and made even worse when Gardiner walks as UFA for cap reasons.

Top heavy in terms of salary being concentrated in a few players.

Some teams will spend more on their D players than others, but it ultimately comes down to the makeup of the team
 
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nuck

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I hope they don't have $ to sign
Johnsson/Kap/Ennis.
We don't need all these one dimensional tiny guys.
Good riddance.

All three are more physical than Willie, and Kapy is by quite a bit. Ennis production per dollar was excellent but he is replaceable in the system. With the amount of speed in today's game they are what you need. If they could just replace Marleau and Brownie with heavier guys they would have a nice mix. The price point is why you need them. If either think they are worth close to $5M you ship them out asap but both Kap and AM could get over 50pts for the team next season on club friendly deals.
 

4thline

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If Kapanen, AJ, Marner want a similarly structured contract as Nylander’s, management can calmly explain that doing so would require them to sit out until December, which they are free to do, but would guarantee they’ll be traded before then.

The Nylander contract emerged from such a unique situation, the notion that it’s resetting the market (even though it’s still within the range of comparables in terms of aav and total money) doesn’t really hold up to the tiniest bit of scrutiny

I know right?

I'm sure Dubas would be happy to give contracts that pays them whatever amount of imaginary money they want so long as the actual money and cap hit fits what he has budgeted for them.
 
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Matthews34

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Probably not cause our GM is utterly horrible at negotiating. If he knew how to negotiate we should have got Nylander at around $6.4M - $6.5M.

400K doesn't even buy you an NHL player. It doesn't matter how much you pay the players you establish as your core as long as they produce at the level you'd expect them to and come up big in big games and lead your team. The cap becomes a problem when 3rd and 4th liners are over paid like Marleau, and Brown. Zaitsev plays 4d so I wouldn't call him over paid until he plays on the bottom pair.
 

Mess

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Top heavy in terms of salary being concentrated in a few players.

Some teams will spend more on their D players than others, but it ultimately comes down to the makeup of the team

Smart teams that want to be Cup competitive will not sacrifice their Defense to build a team of over-priced Forwards. IMO

Teams like TB, Nashville, Winnipeg, San Jose, Washington etc will invest in elite Dmen.

Toronto already has elite C to build around as they will be #2 and #3 most expensive AAV in the NHL starting next year. Well good centres are designed to make their wingers better without the need to blow the cap budget on wingers also to complement them.

"Good teams are built from the goalie out, through strong defense and strength down the middle" .
 
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Anthrax442

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Smart teams that want to be Cup competitive will not sacrifice their Defense to build a team of over-priced Forwards. IMO

Teams like TB, Nashville, Winnipeg, San Jose, Washington etc will invest in elite Dmen.

Toronto already has elite C to build around as they will be #2 and #3 most expensive AAV in the NHL starting next year. Well good centres are designed to make their wingers better without the need to blow the cap budget on wingers also to complement them.

"Good teams are built from the goalie out, through strong defense and strength down the middle" .


Last SC winners Caps and Pens didn't have those crazy defensemen. FFS, Pitts' #1 D was Hainse.
 

Throw More Waffles

Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
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Probably not cause our GM is utterly horrible at negotiating. If he knew how to negotiate we should have got Nylander at around $6.4M - $6.5M.
So with Matthews and Nylander (and soon to Marner), everyone prorated their stats to having more toi and pretty much double the pp time. Do you agree that’s the proper thing to do?
What I still don’t understand is what players are we allowed to do that with. Do we have to take every player (including 3rd and 4th liners) and pay them based on prorated stats considering 18 minutes/4pp minutes per game? If not, why Matthews and Nylander? Where is the line?
 

Throw More Waffles

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400K doesn't even buy you an NHL player. It doesn't matter how much you pay the players you establish as your core as long as they produce at the level you'd expect them to and come up big in big games and lead your team. The cap becomes a problem when 3rd and 4th liners are over paid like Marleau, and Brown. Zaitsev plays 4d so I wouldn't call him over paid until he plays on the bottom pair.
No matter how you try and spin it, it’s better for a team to get their star players under fair contracts than it is to dramatically overpay them.
 
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FraumBallard

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All three are more physical than Willie, and Kapy is by quite a bit. Ennis production per dollar was excellent but he is replaceable in the system. With the amount of speed in today's game they are what you need. If they could just replace Marleau and Brownie with heavier guys they would have a nice mix. The price point is why you need them. If either think they are worth close to $5M you ship them out asap but both Kap and AM could get over 50pts for the team next season on club friendly deals.
I think we have enough offence
with Tavares/Matthews/Marner/Nylander/Rielly.
Solid post though.
Good points.
 

Notsince67

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If Kapanen, AJ, Marner want a similarly structured contract as Nylander’s, management can calmly explain that doing so would require them to sit out until December, which they are free to do, but would guarantee they’ll be traded before then.

The Nylander contract emerged from such a unique situation, the notion that it’s resetting the market (even though it’s still within the range of comparables in terms of aav and total money) doesn’t really hold up to the tiniest bit of scrutiny
Why would the leafs only pay These guys for partial years? You are justifying willy sitting out as if it was a favor. This is the most absurd logic I ever heard. Willy got paid 7 MM for 93.3% of 6 years. The leafs need full time players who are in training camp and dont need over 40 games to get back to where they were.
 
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Notsince67

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I know right?

I'm sure Dubas would be happy to give contracts that pays them whatever amount of imaginary money they want so long as the actual money and cap hit fits what he has budgeted for them.
So part time players are now a thing?
 

4thline

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So part time players are now a thing?
Counter question.
Which do you think the Leafs cared more about, the missed time or the cap hit fitting the budget?

In 6 of the 6 years of this deal, he counts for 6.96 against the annual cap total. We can infer that if offered that for 6 full seasons Nylander would have taken that if he knew that it was the best he can do. We cannot do the same about the Leafs signing a deal that comes with a 7.5 annual cap hit.
 

Notsince67

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Counter question.
Which do you think the Leafs cared more about, the missed time or the cap hit fitting the budget?

If strong teams could bank cap and add reinforcements later they would do it all the time. All that matters is making the playoffs and having the strongest roster you can when you're there. The rest is accounting requirements.

In 6 of the 6 years of this deal, he counts for 6.96 against the annual cap total. We can infer that if offered that for 6 full seasons Nylander would have taken that if he knew that it was the best he can do. We cannot do the same about the Leafs signing a deal that comes with a 7.5 annual cap hit.
You dont win by sitting one of your best players. Marner will get paid for a full year. Nylander will get traded long before this kind of discussion ever happens.
 

Peasy

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Last SC winners Caps and Pens didn't have those crazy defensemen. FFS, Pitts' #1 D was Hainse.
Lol seriously. A hot goalie in the playoffs >>>>> elite defence. Just look at Nashville last year. Rinne was disappointing and thats all that mattered. Their elite defence can't help Rinne stop a beach ball.
 
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4thline

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You dont win by sitting one of your best players. Marner will get paid for a full year. Nylander will get traded long before this kind of discussion ever happens.

Care to check our record with Nylander sitting? The missed games were no more a positive for him than they were a negative for us.

This isn't some schlep you work with pouting at salaried guys getting more time off/flexibility than hourly. Do you honestly think that in Nylander's mind 42 million for 6 years is only fair because of the missed time? Do you really think that players are envious of that missed time and would choose to sit out?
 

Notsince67

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Care to check our record with Nylander sitting? The missed games were no more a positive for him than they were a negative for us.

This isn't some schlep you work with pouting at salaried guys getting more time off/flexibility than hourly. Do you honestly think that in Nylander's mind 42 million for 6 years is only fair because of the missed time? Do you really think that players are envious of that missed time and would choose to sit out?
First of all, Marner is way ahead if Nylander and the team would feel his absence. Second of all, 42 million covers 93.3% of 6 years. A full 6 years would have cost 45 Million. These guys dont play for free. They love to play but if 7mm for 6 is fair (which it isnt), a fair payment would have been 93.3% of 7mm or 6.5mm. Why would have willy not have signed if the offer of 6.5mm was on the table?
 

Zybalto

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Lol seriously. A hot goalie in the playoffs >>>>> elite defence. Just look at Nashville last year. Rinne was disappointing and thats all that mattered. Their elite defence can't help Rinne stop a beach ball.

and Washington looking done in the first round till backup Holtby takes over the starters job against and goes beast mode.
 

4thline

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First of all, Marner is way ahead if Nylander and the team would feel his absence. Second of all, 42 million covers 93.3% of 6 years. A full 6 years would have cost 45 Million. These guys dont play for free. They love to play but if 7mm for 6 is fair (which it isnt), a fair payment would have been 93.3% of 7mm or 6.5mm. Why would have willy not have signed if the offer of 6.5mm was on the table?

So you are answering "Yes" to these questions?

Do you honestly think that in Nylander's mind 42 million for 6 years is only fair because of the missed time? Do honestly think that if given the choice of 6.96 to start the year on time and 6.69 to hold out and start in December he would choose the latter? Do you really think that players are envious of that missed time and would choose to sit out?
 
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Notsince67

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So you are answering "Yes" to both of these questions?

Do you honestly think that in Nylander's mind 42 million for 6 years is only fair because of the missed time? Do you really think that players are envious of that missed time and would choose to sit out?
So you are answering "Yes" to both of these questions?

Do you honestly think that in Nylander's mind 42 million for 6 years is only fair because of the missed time? Do you really think that players are envious of that missed time and would choose to sit out?
No player would choose to sit out for time off. No player would choose to work for free either. This is an absurd argument. Players get paid based on comparables to other players. A 12MM contract for 1 year is not the same as a 12MM contract over 3 years. A 7MM contract for 93.3% of 6 years is not the same as a 7MM contract over 6 years. This is just common sense. You are trying to rationalize something that is completely wrong. The degree might be different but the logic is immovable.
 
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Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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Why would the leafs only pay These guys for partial years? You are justifying willy sitting out as if it was a favor. This is the most absurd logic I ever heard. Willy got paid 7 MM for 93.3% of 6 years. The leafs need full time players who are in training camp and dont need over 40 games to get back to where they were.

What I’m suggesting is there is zero chance this situation happens again with the Leafs.
 

Dough72

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Statistically, there's no doubt that he would benefit from Matthews finishing these plays that maybe Kadri can't. not.
off topic but - while Matthews is a great linemate because he's a great player and can create goals single handedly like few others Kadri is a better finisher for passers (emphasis on the word finisher not saying he's a better shooter obviously). Matthews prefers to coral the puck before he shoots it it's the biggest reason he didn't earn a spot on the first power play where teams prefer someone who is great at one-timers while the goalie is out of position. Or a player at the top of the net who can zing passes immediately into the top corners because they've worked on it relentlessly or hae a natural gift for it. On our team the coaches have decided that's kadri and johnsson.
 

Trapper

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I think we have enough offence
with Tavares/Matthews/Marner/Nylander/Rielly.
Solid post though.
Good points.
With a solid top 4 D and working in the rookies on the bottom pair, there is absolutely zero reason these 4 can’t carry the rest.
If the D is solid and the compliments don’t get scored on often, that’s plenty offense.
If they are elite.
 
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