Player Discussion Shea Weber Part II

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WhiskeySeven*

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There is no source on my claim that Shea Weber's 52m in claimed bonuses over four years threatened an organization valued at 150m that was running on debt. Nashville was in contract negotiations too and lost a major asset in Ryan Suter. It is definitely speculation on my part but Weber and his agent knew what they were doing and they almost got it off. I wish they had because maybe it would've meant that Subban stayed a Hab.

I meant as soon as he was traded. Everyone said he'd break out on a better team, he didn't. He regressed.
He's also regressed to the point for being not an NHLer at the age of 35. Seabrook and Keith also regressed. They're all around 35 or younger.

Weber could turn out to be a Pronger (hopefully without the catastrophic concussion problems) but he's never shown his ability at the highest level in the playoffs and Pronger is a living legend, Shea Weber is a notch below. We can hope and dream that Shea is worth his monster cap hit (as we hope and dream Price will be) when the team is "ready for contention" but the odds are stacked against him and us as Habs fans. I know I'm speculating but guess what, that's what fans do.
 
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LyricalLyricist

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There is no source on my claim that Shea Weber's 52m in claimed bonuses over four years threatened an organization valued at 150m that was running on debt. Nashville was in contract negotiations too and lost a major asset in Ryan Suter. It is definitely speculation on my part but Weber and his agent knew what they were doing and they almost got it off. I wish they had because maybe it would've meant that Subban stayed a Hab.

Took you a while to admit it!:)

Those teams are fine. Not ideal conditions but they matched easy.

It doesn't necessarily mean Subban stays as a hab, maybe we trade Subban to philly. Who knows.


He's also regressed to the point for being not an NHLer at the age of 35. Seabrook and Keith also regressed. They're all around 35 or younger.

Weber could turn out to be a Pronger (hopefully without the catastrophic concussion problems) but he's never shown his ability at the highest level in the playoffs and Pronger is a living legend, Shea Weber is a notch below. We can hope and dream that Shea is worth his monster cap hit (as we hope and dream Price will be) when the team is "ready for contention" but the odds are stacked against him and us as Habs fans. I know I'm speculating but guess what, that's what fans do.

I honestly don't know. Sincerely, no game, no bias. I have no clue. He'll regress eventually but how much and how fast is anyone's guess.
 

LyricalLyricist

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I need a source for that.

That they matched easy? Well they did. They said they’d match anything before he even signed. I guess they assumed it was a bluff, it wasn’t.

Nashville IS fine, don’t you think? Doing well. They had the budget back then but was a lot of money upfront. They could’ve said no if they wanted to.

And the conditions are not ideal, isn’t that what you argued?
 

WhiskeySeven*

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That they matched easy? Well they did. They said they’d match anything before he even signed. I guess they assumed it was a bluff, it wasn’t.

Nashville IS fine, don’t you think? Doing well. They had the budget back then but was a lot of money upfront. They could’ve said no if they wanted to.

And the conditions are not ideal, isn’t that what you argued?
I was kidding, thought it was clear lol

For what it's worth, I don't think Nashville matched it easily and they took their time to do so. I never really cared about that entire ordeal because I didn't care about Nashville or Shea Weber and still don't care about either.

I think I'll come to like Shea Weber if he plays well and the Habs are hopefully. But he still hasn't filled Subban's presence (to me) and the Habs have been downright miserable so far. Even in the season where they finished 1st in the division they were miserable and infuriating to watch. It culminated in an awful playoff series with the worst, most constipated and impotent offense I'd seen. It really sucked. It was so bad people found a way to blame Carey Price for not stealing the series... Carey Price had a 1.88 GAA and the Habs scored less than two goals a game. Insane.

Anywho, if Weber plays well and the Habs are on a roll and actually hopeful - I think it'll go a long way to casting away aspersions on him as a player. But I vehemently disagree with one of the posters above who claimed the discussion on Weber was classless and grotesque. Discussing and interpreting Weber's league-shaking offersheet is no less questionable than him actually signing that deal.
 
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Vlad The Impaler

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We can hope and dream that Shea is worth his monster cap hit (as we hope and dream Price will be) when the team is "ready for contention" but the odds are stacked against him and us as Habs fans. I know I'm speculating but guess what, that's what fans do.

"monster cap hit". Lol.

$7,857,143 is peanuts these days for a player of Weber's caliber and status, who incidentally, is not only worth the money by himself but also makes other players around him better. You can pair this guy with a $1M-worth D like Mete and he suddenly plays like a $3M D.

In 13-14 the cap was at 64.3M. Five years later the cap is now at 79.5M, a 23.6% increase overall. In another 5 years, we will be close to a 100M cap at this rate. And that's a conservative projection. The NHL has several more plans up its sleeve to expand revenue growth. In the last two years of his deal, Weber's salary will probably be that of a UFA second pairing D. It's nothing.

Even if Weber declines, this deal will likely not financially hurt the franchise any more significantly than deals like Alzner (comparatively speaking and taking cap increase into consideration). I hate Alzner and his soft play and it's a bad deal but it's not handcuffing the franchise.

The hard bits in Weber's contract were swallowed by another franchise. Bergevin acquired a quality player with a perfectly fine contract going forward. The money paid is right. The cap hit is right.

What we have here is the Subban fan club once again turning on any member of the organization they need to to fit their twisted narrative. Now I'm going to sit back and enjoy LyricalLyricist factually correct things left and right.
 

WhiskeySeven*

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"monster cap hit". Lol.

$7,857,143 is peanuts these days for a player of Weber's caliber and status, who incidentally, is not only worth the money by himself but also makes other players around him better. You can pair this guy with a $1M-worth D like Mete and he suddenly plays like a $3M D.
7.85 is not peanuts and Weber has been injured for the past year. He hasn't helped the Habs get anywhere good - one impotent first round exit and one massive collapse is the Habs' record since we've been graced by his almighty presence. Nashville didn't get anywhere with him either. If you think it's a team sport and blame can't be placed solely on Weber, then you can't also claim that Weber makes the players around him better - evidently it isn't much.

And Mete was on an ELC, of course he'll be 1m. Mete isn't particularly good either, I'm a noted critic of the kid - he doesn't produce and is too weak. He's a warm body who can skate well. He'll be a replacement-level player if he doesn't improve. Mete didn't improve much since last year either. 3m d-men don't produce less than 10 points.

In 13-14 the cap was at 64.3M. Five years later the cap is now at 79.5M, a 23.6% increase overall. In another 5 years, we will be close to a 100M cap at this rate. And that's a conservative projection. The NHL has several more plans up its sleeve to expand revenue growth. In the last two years of his deal, Weber's salary will probably be that of a UFA second pairing D. It's nothing.
That's a good point, I hope it happens. Weber is likelier to be a 2nd-pairing d-man by the time he's 35 (two, three years from now) than he is to be a topX d-man, which he isn't.

Even if Weber declines, this deal will likely not financially hurt the franchise any more significantly than deals like Alzner (comparatively speaking and taking cap increase into consideration). I hate Alzner and his soft play and it's a bad deal but it's not handcuffing the franchise.
I couldn't care less about the franchise's finances. They steal money from the fans at this point. Alzner is a bad contract and it is these bad deals that prevent the relatively small overpayments to better players, such as Markov or Radulov, take place.

The hard bits in Weber's contract were swallowed by another franchise. Bergevin acquired a quality player with a perfectly fine contract going forward. The money paid is right. The cap hit is right.
The cap hit isn't necessarily right but yeah, he made sure Nashville decide if they really wanted to keep him with that frontloaded deal. Good for him, get paid big guy.

What we have here is the Subban fan club once again turning on any member of the organization they need to to fit their twisted narrative. Now I'm going to sit back and enjoy LyricalLyricist factually correct things left and right.
Not twisting much around. It's my perspective. And I'm clearly a huge fan of Subban. I watch the Habs because they're my hometown team but it isn't the logo that skates around on the ice, it is a team of players. Subban was an exceptional player for the Habs and it made me a bigger fan of the team. Of course I'd lament the loss of Subban, and of course it is clear that Weber is a clear downgrade from Subban so it doubly hurts. That doesn't mean Weber is a bad player, just one that I won't extend courtesies/benefits of the doubt toward until he earns my fandom and support. A good playoff run will do just that - that's how I fell for Subban - but Weber's never had a good playoff run and the time is ticking. Doubt it's in the cards for him given the state of the franchise.
 
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Habs Halifax

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Weber could turn out to be a Pronger (hopefully without the catastrophic concussion problems) but he's never shown his ability at the highest level in the playoffs and Pronger is a living legend, Shea Weber is a notch below. We can hope and dream that Shea is worth his monster cap hit (as we hope and dream Price will be) when the team is "ready for contention" but the odds are stacked against him and us as Habs fans. I know I'm speculating but guess what, that's what fans do.

Monster cap hit? His contract was designed for him to retire early and get the AAV down to under $8M. The only concern is how much decline he will encounter from age 33-36/37. What do you think a top 4D makes in 4 or 5 years from now? I'm asking you this cause I think you think Weber turns into a top 4D by then right?

Can we focus on Monster cap hit for a few posts like you did with Max deal? :sarcasm:. I will give you at least one post to explain your "monster" reasoning
 

WhiskeySeven*

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Monster cap hit? His contract was designed for him to retire early and get the AAV down to under $8M. The only concern is how much decline he will encounter from age 33-36/37. What do you think a top 4D makes in 4 or 5 years from now? I'm asking you this cause I think you think Weber turns into a top 4D by then right?

Can we focus on Monster cap hit for a few posts like you did with Max deal? :sarcasm:. I will give you at least one post to explain your "monster" reasoning
Weber signed one of the richest and longest deals in the sport's history, top3 I think. He also had the highest cap hit for d-men when he signed it, only to be next surpassed by Subban's. It's a monster deal and a monster cap hit.

If the cap doesn't go up, or if the next lock-out freezes the cap will you all eat crow or will there be other twisted and turned and forced arguments to polish the Weber deal that has clearly been a failure so far?
 
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LyricalLyricist

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7.85 is not peanuts and Weber has been injured for the past year. He hasn't helped the Habs get anywhere good - one impotent first round exit and one massive collapse is the Habs' record since we've been graced by his almighty presence. Nashville didn't get anywhere with him either. If you think it's a team sport and blame can't be placed solely on Weber, then you can't also claim that Weber makes the players around him better - evidently it isn't much.

He didn't help a franchise that as you said had the finances and debt that would threaten them into bankruptcy by re-signing their own star talent and captain?

I wonder why...

Nashville was clearly a budget team and there's reasons why they failed to really do damage.

Sucks for Nashville and Weber.
 

Habs Halifax

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Weber signed one of the richest and longest deals in the sport's history, top3 I think. He also had the highest cap hit for d-men when he signed it, only to be next surpassed by Subban's. It's a monster deal and a monster cap hit.

If the cap doesn't go up, or if the next lock-out freezes the cap will you all eat crow or will there be other twisted and turned and forced arguments to polish the Weber deal that has clearly been a failure so far?

Weber's AAV was never considered high. Circumventing the cap type contract reduced his cap hit to below $8M. It was a monster contract back in 2012 due to money paid in bonues in the first 6 years (two of these with the Habs). However, it's no longer a monster contract at this stage. $7.86M for 4 or 5 more years is the right price in terms of AAV and his actual salary is much less moving forward. Burns has a contact that is less favorable cause he is signed from age 32-39 where his actual salary is still $5M at age 39. Weber's salary drops from $3M to $1M at age 37/38. Both are the same age today.

All Weber has to do is maintain his age 30+ stats for the next 4 or 5 years. And if you are paying attention, his age 30+ stats are on par with his career stats. Other than getting hurt, there is zero evidence of decline and him not living up to his contract terms with the Habs. Unless you actually think he plays at age 38, 39, 40 when his actual salary is $1M?

Price however has a monster contract.
 
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WhiskeySeven*

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He didn't help a franchise that as you said had the finances and debt that would threaten them into bankruptcy by re-signing their own star talent and captain?

I wonder why...

Nashville was clearly a budget team and there's reasons why they failed to really do damage.

Sucks for Nashville and Weber.
Nashville's owners were cutting their losses and wanted to sell the team at the time. Suter leaving hurt the franchise valuation and they couldn't afford to let Weber go so they had to stomach it. He hasn't helped the Habs either. Unlucky, as you said but there isn't much else to judge him by in the NHL. I find it laughable that he's still given the "special aura" treatment from certain "fans" of his despite the evidence to the contrary.

I wonder why so many Habs fans are quick to say that others should get over a homegrown and highly entertaining and superior player and adore a player who hasn't worn the jersey for coming up to a full year now and has accomplished nothing as a Hab in his just over two years in the organization? I'm not obligated to like the guy or the player. Why does everything have to be an extreme this way or the other way? I'm over the loss of Subban but I remember him fondly as a former Habs player and current elite d-man. I don't have to adore Shea Weber who is a relative nobody as a Hab and has played just 6 measly playoff games as a Hab.

It sucks for Habs fans to be in this situation.
 
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WhiskeySeven*

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Weber's AAV was never considered high. Circumventing the cap type contract reduced his cap hit to below $8M. It was a monster contract back in 2012 due to money paid in bonues in the first 6 years (two of these with the Habs). However, it's no longer a monster contract at this stage. $7.86M for 4 or 5 more years is the right price in terms of AAV and his actual salary is much less moving forward. Burns has a contact that is less favorable cause he is signed from age 32-39 where his actual salary is still $5M at age 39. Weber's salary drops from $3M to $1M at age 37/38. Both are the same age today.

Price however has a monster contract.
It was the highest cap hit a d-man had at the time. It was only surpassed by Subban's deal. Now it's the FIFTH HIGHEST CAP HIT AMONGST NHL DMEN and TWENTY FIFTH HIGHEST AMONGST ALL NHL PLAYERS. By any metric it is STILL A MONSTER CAP HIT.

Sorry for the caps, I had to make sure you followed my point. You claim it is no longer a monster cap hit - it's the fifth freaking highest cap hit amongst NHL dmen. You claim it is the right price but no NHL dman over 31 was in the top20 for d-men points last year. You claim a lot of things.

I really don't care about his salary. It's irrelevant. All that matters is when he's likely going to retire and and if we can ship him out before that if we want. I'm worried about the 33-36 years and if his surgically repaired foot and ankle (?) won't slow him down even more than father time. But I guess that makes me a Subban fanboy.
 

Habs Halifax

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It was the highest cap hit a d-man had at the time. It was only surpassed by Subban's deal. Now it's the FIFTH HIGHEST CAP HIT AMONGST NHL DMEN and TWENTY FIFTH HIGHEST AMONGST ALL NHL PLAYERS. By any metric it is STILL A MONSTER CAP HIT.

Sorry for the caps, I had to make sure you followed my point. You claim it is no longer a monster cap hit - it's the fifth freaking highest cap hit amongst NHL dmen. You claim it is the right price but no NHL dman over 31 was in the top20 for d-men points last year. You claim a lot of things.

I really don't care about his salary. It's irrelevant. All that matters is when he's likely going to retire and and if we can ship him out before that if we want. I'm worried about the 33-36 years and if his surgically repaired foot and ankle (?) won't slow him down even more than father time. But I guess that makes me a Subban fanboy.

5th highest cap hit on D does not qualify as a monster contract anymore. And his cap his won't change while others pass him very soon. It was a monster contract in 2012 though. But now that the majority of the actual money has been paid, it's no longer a monster contract.

Were talking about Weber here, not Alzner. Weber is not melting away in his play on the ice. There is zero evidence of this.

5th highest AAV but tied 25th in actual salary. Would you look at that, he is making the same amount of money as Alzner this year. Go figure eh.
 
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LyricalLyricist

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Unless Weber pull a Zetterbeg , His contract will be god awful

After 37 years old he makes 6 million for 4 entire seasons combined.

If he can hold on until 37(he's 33 now) then yeah not too bad. If he insists on playing afterwards maybe Arizona would love the high cap, low pay situation. Who knows. I can't see him caring in his late 30s.
 

Leon Lucius Black

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Nov 5, 2007
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After 37 years old he makes 6 million for 4 entire seasons combined.

If he can hold on until 37(he's 33 now) then yeah not too bad. If he insists on playing afterwards maybe Arizona would love the high cap, low pay situation. Who knows. I can't see him caring in his late 30s.

We can probably get a high pick from the Sens, Melnyk would love to only pay $1M a year for the last 3 years while having a cap hit of almost $8M.
 

LyricalLyricist

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Nashville's owners were cutting their losses and wanted to sell the team at the time. Suter leaving hurt the franchise valuation and they couldn't afford to let Weber go so they had to stomach it. He hasn't helped the Habs either. Unlucky, as you said but there isn't much else to judge him by in the NHL. I find it laughable that he's still given the "special aura" treatment from certain "fans" of his despite the evidence to the contrary.

I wonder why so many Habs fans are quick to say that others should get over a homegrown and highly entertaining and superior player and adore a player who hasn't worn the jersey for coming up to a full year now and has accomplished nothing as a Hab in his just over two years in the organization? I'm not obligated to like the guy or the player. Why does everything have to be an extreme this way or the other way? I'm over the loss of Subban but I remember him fondly as a former Habs player and current elite d-man. I don't have to adore Shea Weber who is a relative nobody as a Hab and has played just 6 measly playoff games as a Hab.

It sucks for Habs fans to be in this situation.

He's given such respect because he was dominant in Nashville. If you look at their stats you'll see for a few years he led team in points. This isn't a pure offensive D. This is a two-way D who people bitch isn't a modern PMD and he led the team in points. That's...nuts. He was their only bright spot at times. When he wasn't leading the team he was amongst the top regardless(not unlike Subban for example).

Weber is no less a great D man in his prime than Subban IMO but there lies the problem, Weber is no longer in his prime. Still good, great even but not top 3/5 like he used to be.

Let's be honest though, it's clear as day you're not over the loss of Subban. :laugh: C'mon....

That's fine though, whatever you like. I never understood why people bash players when they're gone. Even pacioretty, I still like him but he's not our problem anymore is all.
 
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WhiskeySeven*

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5th highest cap hit on D does not qualify as a monster contract anymore. And his cap his won't change while others pass him very soon. It was a monster contract in 2012 though. But now that the majority of the actual money has been paid, it's no longer a monster contract.

Were talking about Weber here, not Alzner. Weber is not melting away in his play on the ice. There is zero evidence of this.

5th highest AAV but tied 25th in actual salary. Would you look at that, he is making the same amount of money as Alzner this year. Go figure eh.
His salary is irrelevant. The cap hit is what matters when it comes to team building. It's the cap hit that prevented the Habs from keeping Radulov, allegedly. Weber's cap hit is top5 for his position, it's a monster cap hit.

He's the only player in the top50 NHL d-man cap hits to have not played a game this year. He's also 33. Yet everybody is so sure he's not going to decline...
 

LyricalLyricist

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His salary is irrelevant. The cap hit is what matters when it comes to team building. It's the cap hit that prevented the Habs from keeping Radulov, allegedly. Weber's cap hit is top5 for his position, it's a monster cap hit.

He's the only player in the top50 NHL d-man cap hits to have not played a game this year. He's also 33. Yet everybody is so sure he's not going to decline...

If the cap hit prevented them from keeping Radulov then they'd have no chance to keep Radulov if they had Subban's larger caphit no?

I believe at the asking price of Markov and Radulov he couldn't keep both or something.
 

WhiskeySeven*

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If the cap hit prevented them from keeping Radulov then they'd have no chance to keep Radulov if they had Subban's larger caphit no?

I believe at the asking price of Markov and Radulov he couldn't keep both or something.
I meant the cap hit in general, as in Radulov's proposed cap hit was too high for Bergevin.
 

LyricalLyricist

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I meant the cap hit in general, as in Radulov's proposed cap hit was too high for Bergevin.

What does that have to do with Weber?

It's the cap hit that prevented the Habs from keeping Radulov, allegedly. Weber's cap hit is top5 for his position, it's a monster cap hit.

You said this, Weber's contract didn't prevent anything.

In any case Radulov signed for same caphit and term MB originally offered him so...
 

RickP

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Unless Weber pull a Zetterbeg , His contract will be god awful

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