Player Discussion Shea Weber Part II

[WhiskeySeven*]

This Weber character assassination is hilarious...

Poile just had to sign his player and that's it!

I think the criticism of Weber is in response to the criticism of Subban about the very same contractual situation. Wouldn't you agree? And to Subban's credit, he didn't sign an offersheet meant to threaten his franchise with bankruptcy, he didn't sign any offersheet at all.

 

[Habs Icing]

I think the criticism of Weber is in response to the criticism of Subban about the very same contractual situation. Wouldn't you agree? And to Subban's credit, he didn't sign an offersheet meant to threaten his franchise with bankruptcy, he didn't sign any offersheet at all.

I don't remember any offer sheet being offered. Do you?

 

[Frank Drebin]

I think the criticism of Weber is in response to the criticism of Subban about the very same contractual situation. Wouldn't you agree? And to Subban's credit, he didn't sign an offersheet meant to threaten his franchise with bankruptcy, he didn't sign any offersheet at all.

Of course it in response to the criticisms said about Subban in threads from two years ago.

Both guys were all about the money. Subbans contract was negotiated under a different cba, so even if a team wanted him as badly as Philly wanted Weber, they couldn't have offered him a similarily structured contract, in fact other teams could only offer a7 year deal while Montreal could offer 8.

So no, i don't think he deserves credit for not signing something that wasn't offered to him any more than you or i deserve credit for also not signing offersheets during the summer of 2014.

It would be great if we could move past the perceived sleights on Subbans character during negotiations from 4 years ago. It's a negotiation, things get ugly.

 

[Wats]

I don't remember any offer sheet being offered. Do you?

When's the last time we heard of an offer sheet offer before it was accepted/considered by player?

 

[DangerDave]

It's very likely poile never valued Weber respective to his value around the league evidenced by the arbitrators ruling and subsequent offer sheet. It reminds me of Toronto trying to get nylander to sign for 5m aav because they need room for more important players.

If he would have just grabbed his sack and offered him a 10 year 75m deal like he should have Weber would have reluctantly stayed in Nashville for the money, and poile would have protected his most valuable asset, like a good gm would do.

Instead poile sat on his hands and watched a proactive gm put the franchise he was supposed to be in charge of in a very bad situation.

I'm sure he learned from his mistake, in fairness he had only been a gm for 20 or so years at that point.

It's clear he mishandled the situation. All I'm saying is that it's not really fair to judge a player based on something which we don't even have the facts on.

Also, it doesn't really matter. The current Habs like and respect him quite a bit. All that matters is that he comes back 100 percent and finds his game.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I think the criticism of Weber is in response to the criticism of Subban about the very same contractual situation. Wouldn't you agree? And to Subban's credit, he didn't sign an offersheet meant to threaten his franchise with bankruptcy, he didn't sign any offersheet at all.

He couldn't, when you go to arbitration offer sheets are blocked.

What you need to know:

Subban elected for arbitration himself.

Weber had team elected arbitration.

Nashville did not come to him with a last minute deal like Subban got.

The next year Nashville was terrified of arbitration and Weber is watching guys like Suter leave on an already weak team that lowballs him. He says, k i'm out.

 

[ECWHSWI]

So your opinion is that weber is a money before team loyalty type of guy.

Say you're right. So what? Is that something unique in the nhl? Is he really any different than price or Subban who also tried successfully to maximize their career earnings?

Should he have been punished financially because he was drafted by a poor expansion team?

Do you blame him for what he did? What exactly is your point here.

wasnt I hilariously obtuse for not seeing that it was 100% on Poile or somethign ? nw it's "say you're right" ? as for the difference between both, tell that to the ones painting Subban as selfish and Weber as the ultimate team player, not me (you won't).

as for him being punished, boo hoo, the guy made millions more the previous season than most people will ever do in their life time, that's quite the punishment...

 

[LyricalLyricist]

People talking about Weber's contract situation without doing research is f***ing hilarious.

 

[ColinO]

I think the criticism of Weber is in response to the criticism of Subban about the very same contractual situation. Wouldn't you agree? And to Subban's credit, he didn't sign an offersheet meant to threaten his franchise with bankruptcy, he didn't sign any offersheet at all.

Actually I think that the criticism of Weber is based on vicious speculation based on absolutely no facts and entirely speculation and vindictiveness. It is particularly ugly to watch supposed Habs fans attacking a highly respected man's character with absolutely zero knowledge of anything that actually happened or what was in the minds of the various persons involved. It's grotesque really.
Further it's actually pathetic to try and justify that by suggesting that it's OK because it was only done in response to criticism by other fans of another player.

 

[Belial]

Actually I think that the criticism of Weber is based on vicious speculation based on absolutely no facts and entirely speculation and vindictiveness. It is particularly ugly to watch supposed Habs fans attacking a highly respected man's character with absolutely zero knowledge of anything that actually happened or what was in the minds of the various persons involved. It's grotesque really.
Further it's actually pathetic to try and justify that by suggesting that it's OK because it was only done in response to criticism by other fans of another player.

This!

 

[Sterling Archer]

Can’t wait until Weber is back. Our D needs him. Holding leads and PK have been and issue and we can definitely use him and his shot on the PP.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Actually I think that the criticism of Weber is based on vicious speculation based on absolutely no facts and entirely speculation and vindictiveness. It is particularly ugly to watch supposed Habs fans attacking a highly respected man's character with absolutely zero knowledge of anything that actually happened or what was in the minds of the various persons involved. It's grotesque really.
Further it's actually pathetic to try and justify that by suggesting that it's OK because it was only done in response to criticism by other fans of another player.

Grotesque??

I don't see any personal attack on Weber. Has anyone suggested his (non-existent) charity was a tax ploy? I saw plenty of that against another player.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Grotesque??

I don't see any personal attack on Weber. Has anyone suggested his (non-existent) charity was a tax ploy? I saw plenty of that against another player.

Two wrongs don't make a right. I'm not being hypocritical if you think so, I don't care about Subban's taxes in the first place.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

He couldn't, when you go to arbitration offer sheets are blocked.

What you need to know:

Subban elected for arbitration himself.

Weber had team elected arbitration.

Nashville did not come to him with a last minute deal like Subban got.

The next year Nashville was terrified of arbitration and Weber is watching guys like Suter leave on an already weak team that lowballs him. He says, k i'm out.

Interesting framing. Are you Weber's agent??

First of all, Subban and his agent openly stated they would not court offersheets during his first contract negos where Bergevin laid a giant egg. That's a fact.

Secondly, Weber wanted to leave Nashville but didn't have FA rights so he refused to negotiate. That's why Nashville elected for arbitration. It was the reverse for Subban, he wanted to stay and Montreal didn't value him at what he was worth.

So don't tell me what I need to know if you're going to be complicit in a PR fluff job. But none of this matters. It's in the past and it really doesn't affect a thing. Weber didn't hamstring the Habs, Bergevin did when he traded for him. It isn't Weber's fault at all that Montreal is stuck with him on the books well past his expected best before date.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

People talking about Weber's contract situation without doing research is ****ing hilarious.

In context, where you've openly misstated facts and purposefully reframed the argument to suit your defense of Weber, this is hilarious.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Interesting framing. Are you Weber's agent??

First of all, Subban and his agent openly stated they would not court offersheets during his first contract negos where Bergevin laid a giant egg. That's a fact.

Secondly, Weber wanted to leave Nashville but didn't have FA rights so he refused to negotiate. That's why Nashville elected for arbitration. It was the reverse for Subban, he wanted to stay and Montreal didn't value him at what he was worth.

So don't tell me what I need to know if you're going to be complicit in a PR fluff job. But none of this matters. It's in the past and it really doesn't affect a thing. Weber didn't hamstring the Habs, Bergevin did when he traded for him. It isn't Weber's fault at all that Montreal is stuck with him on the books well past his expected best before date.

So poile laid an egg by having Weber's longest contract a 3 year deal as well? Weber also had a bridge esque deal of 3 years.

Weber tried to negotiate. He didn't apply for arbitration(which limits contracts to 1-2 seasons). Nashville did, they chose to force him into a 1 year deal by going to arbitration.

Well, if Weber retires early for a non LTIR reason Nashville can deal with the issues, not us.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

In context, where you've openly misstated facts and purposefully reframed the argument to suit your defense of Weber, this is hilarious.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

What facts have I misstated?

On their 3rd contract both Subban and Weber went to salary arbitration. Subban/his agent elected for arbitration. Weber's team elected for arbitration.

What is wrong about said facts? They are facts, not misstated. Google it.

As for framing and purposefully reframing arguments to defend or critique a player:

I think the criticism of Weber is in response to the criticism of Subban about the very same contractual situation. Wouldn't you agree? And to Subban's credit, he didn't sign an offersheet meant to threaten his franchise with bankruptcy, he didn't sign any offersheet at all.

You got a source on the bankruptcy claim buddy or are you the one inventing shit?

Nashville matched an offer sheet designed to send his team into bankruptcy. Jesus, what sensationalism.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

So poile laid an egg by having Weber's longest contract a 3 year deal as well? Weber also had a bridge esque deal of 3 years.

Different cap era.

Weber tried to negotiate. He didn't apply for arbitration(which limits contracts to 1-2 seasons). Nashville did, they chose to force him into a 1 year deal by going to arbitration.

Irrelevant. Nashville clearly didn't want one of their prized assets leaving as a UFA, so they didn't want to "force him" into a 1 year deal. They couldn't come to an agreement. Different context, different subtext. This is what I mean by misstating and biased framing.

Well, if Weber retires early for a non LTIR reason Nashville can deal with the issues, not us.

Irrelevant and wasn't even a fact when Weber signed his deal.

What facts have I misstated?

On their 3rd contract both Subban and Weber went to salary arbitration. Subban/his agent elected for arbitration. Weber's team elected for arbitration.

What is wrong about said facts? They are facts, not misstated. Google it.

There is absolutely no reason to compare the two players' contract situations. One is a Hab, one is no longer a Hab. One signed an offersheet, the other didn't. One wanted to stay with his team, the other wanted to leave two years back to back and did his best to do so.

As for framing and purposefully reframing arguments to defend or critique a player:

You got a source on the bankruptcy claim buddy or are you the one inventing ****?

Nashville matched an offer sheet designed to send his team into bankruptcy. Jesus, what sensationalism.

Read a few pages back. Nashville's cashflow was seriously threatened while they were on the verge of selling the team due to the selling owners not finding the venture profitable. There is a reason why Weber signed the deal he did. You can't pretend it isn't a fact all you want. My point was that Subban didn't do that even when he could have. Bergevin was a rookie GM and the Habs were coming off a collapse, he could've held out and demanded a trade or signed an offersheet when his team was in a weak position - he didn't. Weber did.

I really don't see the point of discussing this though. It's in the past and has nothing to do with the present.

The only thing that I care about is Weber's monster contract and what we'll have to do with it until his mountainy highness decides to grace us with his retirement. There is a rare chance he could end up like pre-concussion Pronger, but there's also a chance he could end up like 90% of other d-men and fall off a cliff by the time he's 35.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Different cap era.

A cap era where you can front load deals and do circumvention on long term deals if you wanted to? Wouldn't that imply better odds of signing someone long term...?

Irrelevant. Nashville clearly didn't want one of their prized assets leaving as a UFA, so they didn't want to "force him" into a 1 year deal. They couldn't come to an agreement. Different context, different subtext. This is what I mean by misstating and biased framing.

The 7.5 million dollar result of arbitration was closer to Weber's asking price than Poile's. They couldn't sign him and they couldn't sign Suter either. He botched a lot of negotiations during that time. Whether it's from Nashville's budget or otherwise it wasn't pretty. Suter should've never hit free agency. He had 2 years to sign weber to an extension but couldn't do it...

Irrelevant and wasn't even a fact when Weber signed his deal.

Sure but you said:

It isn't Weber's fault at all that Montreal is stuck with him on the books well past his expected best before date.

If he retires it's Nashville's problem. Given contract structure he just might.

There is absolutely no reason to compare the two players' contract situations. One is a Hab, one is no longer a Hab. One signed an offersheet, the other didn't. One wanted to stay with his team, the other wanted to leave two years back to back and did his best to do so.

I responded to a post where you compared the two...now we're not allowed. I quoted YOU. What the...

See below:

I think the criticism of Weber is in response to the criticism of Subban about the very same contractual situation. Wouldn't you agree? And to Subban's credit, he didn't sign an offersheet meant to threaten his franchise with bankruptcy, he didn't sign any offersheet at all.

Read a few pages back. Nashville's cashflow was seriously threatened while they were on the verge of selling the team due to the selling owners not finding the venture profitable. There is a reason why Weber signed the deal he did. You can't pretend it isn't a fact all you want. My point was that Subban didn't do that even when he could have. Bergevin was a rookie GM and the Habs were coming off a collapse, he could've held out and demanded a trade or signed an offersheet when his team was in a weak position - he didn't. Weber did.

But you said bankruptcy...with no source.

Let me give you a source:

Many believe with goaltender Pekka Rinne’s salary cap hit of $7 million and the team’s need to re-sign their captain Shea Weber, the Predators wouldn’t be able to extend the American defenceman without being over the salary cap.


Poile disagrees and says it would just mean that the Predators would be a cap team, something the owners are willing to become if it means a more successful franchise.

“We’ve always been one of the lowest spending teams in the NHL, but our owners have got their arms totally around the fact to pay Pekka Rinne $7 million, to pay Weber ($7.5 million), and fill in the blank on what you think it will cost to sign Suter, you add up all of our salaries and we’re going to be a cap team next year,” Poile explained.

Preds' GM Poile confident Suter will stay in NSH - Sportsnet.ca

Weird, they could pay Weber and Suter no problem but Weber alone=Bankruptcy. C'mon. Yeah, it was a front loaded deal designed that Weber wouldn't play until he was 41.

I mean, Hossa signed a front loaded deal too. Lots of guys did. Many players are signing contracts with most of their pay as signing bonuses to protect against a lockout and get money sooner.

It's not that strange and sure Philly made an offer designed to make Nashville walk away. Weber didn't hold a gun to philly's head. Not only did Nashville match it quickly, they also did just fine. Offer sheets were never meant to be easy to match, it defeats purpose.

Oh and Subban could've done this? HOW? He elected for arbitration. Once you do arbitration you can't sign offer sheets. Again...do your research. Subban only got paid the highest caphit of all D-men in the league, no big deal. Please...just stop. Does this make Subban greedy? No. It's fine man. It's all good. They played by the rules.
​

I really don't see the point of discussing this though. It's in the past and has nothing to do with the present.

The only thing that I care about is Weber's monster contract and what we'll have to do with it until his mountainy highness decides to grace us with his retirement. There is a rare chance he could end up like pre-concussion Pronger, but there's also a chance he could end up like 90% of other d-men and fall off a cliff by the time he's 35.

Sure, the contract isn't great if he's human and decides to play until his late 30s. Odds are, at 1 million dollars a year and a huge cap hit he may just retire.

We'll have to wait and see.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Weird, they could pay Weber and Suter no problem but Weber alone=Bankruptcy. C'mon. Yeah, it was a front loaded deal designed that Weber wouldn't play until he was 41.

Again with the misframing. Who are you trying to decieve with this move?

Giving Weber 14m cheques on July 1st for the first four years was absolutely not in their plans and absolutely threatened their cash flow and franchise valuation. Evidently it wasn't a back-breaker, but Shea and Philly hoped it would be.

Again - it's irrelevant. Massive distraction.

Oh and Subban could've done this? HOW? He elected for arbitration.

Subban didn't elect for arbitration the first contract negotiations. He could've signed an offersheet then and there. He didn't. His agent didn't. It was in the news.

Sure, the contract isn't great if he's human and decides to play until his late 30s. Odds are, at 1 million dollars a year and a huge cap hit he may just retire.

The contract isn't good if he becomes bad BEFORE his late 30s. If he becomes another J Bouwmeester and falls off a cliff at 34-35. If he loses another step and is rendered useless against the "new" NHL's speedy forwards. If he doesn't come back from his massive injury layoff properly. Etc.

It is a problematic contract for the Habs entirely separate from the byzantine cap recapture thing you keep flaunting like a feather in Bergevin's hat. By the time Weber is making 1m a year, he'll very likely long be rendered ineffective at the NHL level.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Again with the misframing. Who are you trying to decieve with this move?

Giving Weber 14m cheques on July 1st for the first four years was absolutely not in their plans and absolutely threatened their cash flow and franchise valuation. Evidently it wasn't a back-breaker, but Shea and Philly hoped it would be.

Again - it's irrelevant. Massive distraction.

Bankruptcy talk is misframing. Again, everyone knows Nashville was small market team...that's why philly did it. You claimed it would threatened their cash flow into bankruptcy. You massively oversold the argument. At least I brought up a quote suggesting they can handle it on a yearly basis and you know...they actually didn't go bankrupt.

I await your evidence of 'bankruptcy' talk.

Subban didn't elect for arbitration the first contract negotiations. He could've signed an offersheet then and there. He didn't. His agent didn't. It was in the news.

Because he couldn't. Players coming out of their ELC cannot elect for arbitration.

I guess Weber could've signed offersheet after ELC too, he didn't, what a hero?

We're comparing their 3rd contracts. Weber did his ELC(3 years), 3 year bridge and 1 year arbitration before signing a big deal. Subban did ELC(3 years), 2 year bridge and signed his big contract.

Weber waited even longer, he didn't get last minute deal from Nashville like subban did. I mean...at a certain point if they sent Subban to arbitration and still struggled to sign him after we'd be on MB and Molson's case and rightfully so.

The contract isn't good if he becomes bad BEFORE his late 30s. If he becomes another J Bouwmeester and falls off a cliff at 34-35. If he loses another step and is rendered useless against the "new" NHL's speedy forwards. If he doesn't come back from his massive injury layoff properly. Etc.

It is a problematic contract for the Habs entirely separate from the byzantine cap recapture thing you keep flaunting like a feather in Bergevin's hat. By the time Weber is making 1m a year, he'll very likely long be rendered ineffective at the NHL level.

He's 33 now and looked fine(if not very very good) last 2 years apart from injury. He looked like a top pairing guy last I saw him.

Of course Hemlock, he can regress tomorrow. I have no clue. Right now it's a little premature but it will happen eventually. The thing about Jay Bouwmeester is he didn't even match expectations back in his 20s so it's not the same but I get it.

We'll see if Weber stays by that time. Not one player who signed a contract like that is currently playing into super late 30s and 40s so...

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Bankruptcy talk is misframing. Again, everyone knows Nashville was small market team...that's why philly did it. You claimed it would threatened their cash flow into bankruptcy. You massively oversold the argument. At least I brought up a quote suggesting they can handle it on a yearly basis and you know...they actually didn't go bankrupt.

I await your evidence of 'bankruptcy' talk.

Look at Nashville's valuation at the time when Weber worked with Philly to sign that deal. I haven't oversold anything - it was my conclusion based on what I know about the situation.

Because he couldn't. Players coming out of their ELC cannot elect for arbitration.

I guess Weber could've signed offersheet after ELC too, he didn't, what a hero?

Who cares about arbitration? Weber didn't sign an offersheet after his ELC because he didn't need to, Nashville wanted him and re-signed him to an agreeable deal. The other time, Nashville desperately wanted him and he took advantage of the situation and signed one of the richest deals in hockey history, 52m in bonuses in the first four years. If any Hab had done that to the Habs, they'd be drawn and quartered by the "I cheer fer da logo in front, not da name in da back" crowd.

We're comparing their 3rd contracts. Weber did his ELC(3 years), 3 year bridge and 1 year arbitration before signing a big deal. Subban did ELC(3 years), 2 year bridge and signed his big contract.

No we're not. It's irrelevant.

Weber waited even longer, he didn't get last minute deal from Nashville like subban did. I mean...at a certain point if they sent Subban to arbitration and still struggled to sign him after we'd be on MB and Molson's case and rightfully so.

Weber didn't get a deal because he didn't want one. He wanted to leave and tried to force his exit without having full free agency rights. Now he's in Montreal against his wishes.

He's 33 now and looked fine(if not very very good) last 2 years apart from injury. He looked like a top pairing guy last I saw him.

Of course Hemlock, he can regress tomorrow. I have no clue. Right now it's a little premature but it will happen eventually. The thing about Jay Bouwmeester is he didn't even match expectations back in his 20s so it's not the same but I get it.

We'll see if Weber stays by that time. Not one player who signed a contract like that is currently playing into super late 30s and 40s so...

He looked fine... until his catastrophic injuries got him TWO surgeries and took him out for a full calendar year.

Jay Bouwmeester didn't match his attacking potential, but he was lauded as a safe and sound d-man all his career. He was paid for it. Turns out he fell off a cliff. It can happen to Shea Weber too. And again, I don't care about the late 30s/early 40s years, those are throwaway years. I care about 33-36 where the Habs are meant to be back in contention. Somehow.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Look at Nashville's valuation at the time when Weber worked with Philly to sign that deal. I haven't oversold anything - it was my conclusion based on what I know about the situation.

It was supposed to be tough, not bankruptcy.

If you can find a legit source claiming bankruptcy then yeah, you haven't oversold it. Until then...

Who cares about arbitration? Weber didn't sign an offersheet after his ELC because he didn't need to, Nashville wanted him and re-signed him to an agreeable deal. The other time, Nashville desperately wanted him and he took advantage of the situation and signed one of the richest deals in hockey history, 52m in bonuses in the first four years. If any Hab had done that to the Habs, they'd be drawn and quartered by the "I cheer fer da logo in front, not da name in da back" crowd.

You mean like Carey Price who has 45.75 mil in bonuses in first 4 years in a cap era(a real cap era) of no front loading? That's even worse!

Carey Price even has 70 million in signing bonuses over 8 years vs Weber's 68 million over 14 years...

I await your posts about Carey Price being selfish, greedy and not caring about the habs.

Either way, using your logic about 'agreeable deal'.

On the 3rd contract Subban got paid, Weber got a 1 year deal. He got paid on his 4th. So...let me get this straight. He would've have signed an offer sheet if Nashville wanted him and signed him to an agreeable deal...just like Subban.

No we're not. It's irrelevant.

So you're comparing 2nd contracts now where Weber made 4.5 a year? Since when?

I could've sworn you called him greedy and said Nashville would go into bankruptcy. Was that for his ELC? Was it for his 4.5 million deal? Or was it about his 3rd and 4th contracts?

Yeah...why are changing it now?

Weber didn't get a deal because he didn't want one. He wanted to leave and tried to force his exit without having full free agency rights. Now he's in Montreal against his wishes.

Do you have a source that he didn't want one when he went to arbitration?

In your defense there is a source saying he wanted to go to Philly after he signed that offer sheet. At that point he had committed so yeah sure. Before that during negotiations? Nope. No source of Weber asking for a trade, refusing to negotiate or anything.

He looked fine... until his catastrophic injuries got him TWO surgeries and took him out for a full calendar year.

Jay Bouwmeester didn't match his attacking potential, but he was lauded as a safe and sound d-man all his career. He was paid for it. Turns out he fell off a cliff. It can happen to Shea Weber too. And again, I don't care about the late 30s/early 40s years, those are throwaway years. I care about 33-36 where the Habs are meant to be back in contention. Somehow.

Markov had multiple injuries, Carey had problems. We'll see. I mean, he can come back horrible in December, you're 100% right. This is fair speculation. I honestly don't know though. We'll know when we see him.

Jay Bouwmeester went from Norris candidate to #2 D.

JayBo was never really a top 5 D-man or a consistent Norris candidate. He finished 11th, 14th and 17th in voting in 16 NHL seasons.

Apart from Weber's rookie(28 games played), sophomore year and last year he's been in Norris voting top 20 every season.

2,2,3,4,4,6,7,8,10,17

That's pretty spectacular. Jay bo isn't really on his level.

Like I said, you may be 1000% right and he comes back horrible but I hope he doesn't obviously. We'll see how it goes, I can't comment until I see him play.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

LOL @ bringing Carey Price's widely panned contract into it, after trying to shoe-horn Subban's deal too. Nice try smart guy.

Jay Bouwmeester went from Norris candidate to #2 D.

He's been scratched and he's hardly an NHLer. He's not a #2.

JayBo was never really a top 5 D-man or a consistent Norris candidate. He finished 11th, 14th and 17th in voting in 16 NHL seasons.

Apart from Weber's rookie(28 games played), sophomore year and last year he's been in Norris voting top 20 every season.

2,2,3,4,4,6,7,8,10,17

That's pretty spectacular. Jay bo isn't really on his level.

Like I said, you may be 1000% right and he comes back horrible but I hope he doesn't obviously. We'll see how it goes, I can't comment until I see him play.

Jay Bouw never got Norris votes because he's not a point producing d-man. I'm referring to their defensive ability and style and how they both rely on positioning and each to make their plays. Or did.

Norris vote position is also irrelevant outside the top3, sometimes only top2.

Shea Weber was 6th in Norris votes two years ago, he got 100 Norris points. Brent Burns got 1437 at 1st, Erik Karlsson got 1292 at 2nd. Shea's 100 points doesn't even make up the difference between 2nd and 1st. He was more than double his own points under Duncan Keith (384 points, 4th).

Speaking of which, Duncan Keith has fallen off mightly too. Last year could be a blip but he crashed down to earth and took his team down with him. He's 35 and better than Shea Weber. Seabrook is 33, he's never had the tools of Weber but he's been bad for some time now.

Players do crash down in this mid-30s. Weber's awful contract, one that he signed as an offersheet, shouldn't be ignored.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

LOL @ bringing Carey Price's widely panned contract into it, after trying to shoe-horn Subban's deal too. Nice try smart guy.

Huh?

Speaking of nice try smart guy. Getting that bankruptcy source or will you not quote that because you can't provide it?

Everything I post is from me actually looking things up.

He's been scratched and he's hardly an NHLer. He's not a #2.

I meant as soon as he was traded. Everyone said he'd break out on a better team, he didn't. He regressed.

Jay Bouw never got Norris votes because he's not a point producing d-man. I'm referring to their defensive ability and style and how they both rely on positioning and each to make their plays. Or did.

Norris vote position is also irrelevant outside the top3, sometimes only top2.

Shea Weber was 6th in Norris votes two years ago, he got 100 Norris points. Brent Burns got 1437 at 1st, Erik Karlsson got 1292 at 2nd. Shea's 100 points doesn't even make up the difference between 2nd and 1st. He was more than double his own points under Duncan Keith (384 points, 4th).

Speaking of which, Duncan Keith has fallen off mightly too. Last year could be a blip but he crashed down to earth and took his team down with him. He's 35 and better than Shea Weber. Seabrook is 33, he's never had the tools of Weber but he's been bad for some time now.

Players do crash down in this mid-30s. Weber's awful contract, one that he signed as an offersheet, shouldn't be ignored.

Dude, overall effectiveness include offense, defense, etc... You don't pick and choose...

Either way, Weber has shown more defensively at 33 than JayBo did. So what?

And I agree that 6th place isn't major but Jaybo wasn't top 20 anyway. He's hit 2 twice, 3 once, 4 twice. So whatever man. It's pretty loaded.

Again, wait and see. Just speculation at this point.