Player Discussion Shea Weber Part II

Discussion in 'Montreal Canadiens' started by montreal, Oct 23, 2018.

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  1. TooLegitToQuit

    TooLegitToQuit Loyal Habs Fan

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    1. His contract is designed for him to retire at either age 36 or 37 when his actual salary drops significantly. Yeah, he is signed till 40 but what is the incentive for him to play those last 3 years at $1M actual salary at age 38, 39, 40? The only incentive I see is if he is on a roster that is a cup contender and he wants to win and can still play and contribute.

    2. Both Hossa and Zetterberg had injuries or health issues. Hossa decided to play the year where his actual salary dropped from $7.9M to $4M but did not play the following year where it dropped to $1M. Zetterberg played last year with $7M of actual salary but did not play this year when it dropped to $3.35M. I guess there is a factor of how much they are being paid and how much pain they are willing to go through :sarcasm:. The timing is coincidental right?

    3. Yes, players start declining but the age range varies for many players. 30 is the threshold that most focus on. However, there is just as many examples of players producing from age 30-35 as there is with players declining more than you prefer. At the moment, Weber is 33 and his 30+ stats are not bad and very very close to his career averages. I don't consider a freak shot to his foot evidence of decline. Sorry, it's been 3 years and Weber is still the same guy he was in his late 20's. Were talking about a very minuscule decline here man. Now Age 35+ is where the concerns should be IMO. That's where most players encounter noticeable decline
     
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  2. Acadien86

    Acadien86 Registered User

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    Good post. I've been saying this for a while now, Weber's game is not focused on speed, has never been. His physical attribute, shot and high level IQ is what makes him so good. I don't see any of those 3 attributes declining over the years. As long as his skating doesn't regress big time, he should be good for quite a few more years. Also, if by any chance (or should i say badluck) he retires before the end of his contract, it will go on the Predators payroll.
     
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  3. tazsub3

    tazsub3 Registered User

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    and winning can be learned, i much rather have the young players learn under a winning environment instead of a losing one where losing is acceptable
     
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  4. Kriss E

    Kriss E Registered User

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    I think Buffalo would bite and give up St-Louis's pick for Weber.
    Dahlin's great, but their #2 is Risto...If they added Weber to help guide Dahlin, it would be a very solid acquisition. Obviously, we would have to put our salesman hat on.
     
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  5. BaseballCoach

    BaseballCoach Registered User

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    We can't quote odds when it suits us and ignore the odds when it does not.

    The whole point the pro-tankers keep making is that the CHANCES of an on-the-fly retool working are low. Let's assume they are right and it is true. It is not legit to ignore the odds of the pro-tank moves working and just say, "any percentage chance is good enough, no matter how low".

    Thoughts?
     
  6. Kriss E

    Kriss E Registered User

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    What are the chances of us getting a generational difference making player over the next two years if we don't draft in the top 5?
    Sometimes bringing up odds is quite the silly game.
    Actually no, it has nothing to do with that.

    Yay...participation trophies...
    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Kriss E

    Kriss E Registered User

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    The problem is you are confusing a few things together.

    People who argue for the tank do so because we need high end talent. Drafting high is the best and safest way to secure yourself high end talent given the current format. Once you've gotten that, the job isn't done man, but that's an entire different discussion.
    People love to point to the Oilers at a fail tank. They are 100% wrong. Oilers had very succesful tanks. It yielded McDavid, Hall, RNH, Eberle, Draisalt. They had incredibly successful tanks.
    The problem is they didn't know how to build around, which is an entirely different matter.
     
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  8. DangerDave

    DangerDave Suzuki's Sidekick

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    How would you address the Oilers issues?

    Personally, I always felt like Edmonton was a very toxic environment. Tanking and getting high end talent is great but constantly losing can shatter confidence. Maybe keeping their young talent down in the AHL a couple years where they could have Dominated would have been a better course of action while acquiring some good role models to help ease these guys in the NHL
     
  9. BaseballCoach

    BaseballCoach Registered User

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    I'm not for tanking and never have been. As a coach, my training is to teach people to win, sustainably.

    That does not mean we should rent marginal assets at the deadline at the cost of picks. Of course not. I would rather do the opposite, trade Weise and Fleischmann for a young prospect and a pick, or Pacioretty for a younger roster player, a Junior-age prospect and a pick.

    But I will always want the players I acquire to do the best possible and I will be happy if we win, happy if we make the playoffs, happier the farther we go in the playoffs. A second round loss, with a young team on the way up, would be a GREAT result if it happens this year, just GREAT!

    There are about 10 contending teams. That means that at least two will lose in the first round of the playoffs, and at least six will lose in the first two rounds.

    The only time it is bad is if the team took shortcuts to get that far that will LOWER performance in the future. That must be avoided for sure.
     
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  10. cphabs

    cphabs It complels you!

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    Having someone like Weber skating around is always a bonus for the kids learning. Seriously, I’m not even talking about fighting. Weber has the ability to destroy opposing forwards if he wants to. Would it take him out of position to do so? Probably, but there would be no guesswork on what just had happened. Oh, Weber can put 40+ points while doing this.
     
  11. Kriss E

    Kriss E Registered User

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    No it wouldn't. What would we get for this great result? Nothing. You think that hey, we have a young team, we make the 2nd round this year, great! That means next year we should go further. Well no, things don't magically happen this way.
    For us to reach the 2nd Rd this year means we overacheived and will likely get lesser results the following season.
    We would benefit more from having a high pick at this year's draft than just make it to the 1st or 2nd rd this year.
    We made it to the CF twice in ''recent'' years...how did that help us move forward? Well in no way actually. It helped us fack all. You'd think people have understood by now..
     
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  12. Kriss E

    Kriss E Registered User

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    Well they had the right idea trading Hall for Larsson...problem is AL was totally not worth Hall.
    Eberle+Hall...they moved those two guys without getting an elite Dman. That is a major screw up.
    They need to improve their D and G.
     
  13. Miller Time

    Miller Time Registered User

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    Interestingly, Weber's greatest impact on the team may simply be the shift of Petry from top-pairing/#1 Dman role (which he couldn't quite do justice) to 2nd pairing role where he is looking absolutely fantastic.

    On another note, Really hope MB finds a quality top pairing complement for Weber sooner than later... His potential impact is seriously limited by playing with a depth quality partner.
     
  14. japhi

    japhi Registered User

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    Imagine coming back from a year off and they pair you with an AHL defenseman.
     
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  15. the

    the Registered User

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    He was due for a average game but just his presence on the ice helps alot.
     
  16. DramaticGloveSave

    DramaticGloveSave Voice of Reason

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    It’s no coincidence that we are suddenly a pretty good defensive hockey’s team right when Weber comes back- especially considering the tire fire we were before his return.
     
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  17. Deebs

    Deebs Best Dog Ever

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  18. Kudo Shinichi

    Kudo Shinichi Registered User

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    Price has also looked much better with Weber back
     
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  19. Kriss E

    Kriss E Registered User

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    We are?
     
  20. BaseballCoach

    BaseballCoach Registered User

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    I challenge the ASSumption that the team must have overachieved to get to the final 8 teams.

    I challenge the ASSumption that we will likely get lesser results the following season.

    I will actually give REASONS for my beliefs.

    First, with a young team, there are more guys on the upswing than the downswing. Might Price and Weber slip a bit every year? Maybe, though that is not a sure thing, given the type of players they are. But let's say yes, slightly. And maybe Byron and Tatar each score 2 less goals. Now, what about guys who might improve?

    It starts with Kotkaniemi. If he finishes with 40 points this year, and his potential is 75 points or more, would that not drive the team significantly upward more than downward? Look at what getting Weber back has done for the team, moving other players into the right chairs. Domi as 2C and Danault as 3C or 4C changes the whole dynamic of the team!

    Lehkonen will be 24, why couldn't he score more goals during the following 3-4 years than this year? Juulsen and Mete are surely players who can get better, MUCH better in fact. Poehling or Evans should be an improvement over Chaput or Peca.

    Then there is Josh Brook. He might be able to replace Petry, so that we can use Petry in a hockey trade for a similarly talented LD.

    Finally, there is a strong chance Nick Suzuki could come in and provide 20-30 goals in relatively short order.

    Nothing is magical, nothing is automatic. Agreed. But if the Habs are in the mix somewhere between #5 and #16 this year, with one of the youngest rosters in the league, and Brook, Suzuki and Poehling in the wings, and the additional talent that $10M in cap space can fetch, I think the "likelihood" is more towards going up than down.
     
  21. ECWHSWI

    ECWHSWI bought a MB jersey

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    10M can fetch you a Tavares or a Stastny... like it did to us last off-season...


    right ?
     
  22. BaseballCoach

    BaseballCoach Registered User

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    $10M can do a lot, not just fetch one superstar.

    Cap Space got us Joel Armia who is a FANTASTIC upgrade on Byron Froese.

    Cap Space allowed us to take back Tatar's contract and thus get Suzuki and a 2nd for Patches.

    You can sign a good LD with $4-$5M of cap.

    A good rising team will attract free agents. Our crap team did not.

    But surely you will agree having $10M of cap space is way better than being strapped and having to shed assets you don't want to lose.
     
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  23. TooLegitToQuit

    TooLegitToQuit Loyal Habs Fan

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    Is there a Kulak thread?

    I'm starting to like what I see from him. Very confident and aggressive style of game. He seems to fit very well with Weber so far anyways. He is certainly not afraid to jump in the play with the forwards. His play along the boards is impressive too.
     
  24. TooLegitToQuit

    TooLegitToQuit Loyal Habs Fan

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    - 17 players signed for next year.
    - $1.366M buyout hit for Mason
    - $3.55M cap hit with Alzner in the AHL
    - $3.5M cap inflation brining the Salary cap to $83M
    - RFA's: Lehkonen, Armia, Kulak, Reilly, Quellet, Hudon ($10M max.. combined?)
    - UFA's: Agostino, Benn (Benn walks, Agostino at $1M?)

    Drouin ($5.5M) / Domi ($3.15M) / Shaw ($3.9M)
    Tatar ($4.8M / Danault ($3.083M) / Gallagher ($3.75M)
    Lehkonen ($3M) / Kotkaniemi ($0.925M) / Armia ($2.5M)
    Agostino ($1M) / Evans (0.925M) / Byron ($3.4M)

    Deslauriers ($0.950M), Hudon ($0.700M)

    Kulak ($1.5M) / Weber ($7.86M)
    Mete ($0.748M) / Petry ($5.5M)
    Reilly ($1.5M) / Juulsen ($0.863M)

    Schlemko ($2.1M)

    Price ($10.5M)
    Lindgren ($0.700M)

    23 man roster potential cap hit (Alzner in the AHL and the buyout on Mason included): $74M (+/-)
    - So we do realistically have around $9M in cap space for next year
    - $8M if Alzner is on our NHL roster
    - $12.55M if Alzner is traded and we don't retain (dreaming here)

    Future contracts in the next 3 years: Gallagher (UFA), Domi (RFA), Tatar (UFA), Danault (UFA), Kotkaniemi (RFA), Juulsen (RFA), Mete (RFA). Hard to predict how this unfolds, who we keep, who we trade, who we let go, how good the young guys get.

    I say a lot depends on the Alzner contract. Lets say we are stuck with him. I feel comfortable that we can go after a $8 or $9M UFA asset. But lets hope it's a player we need, not a player we sign cause we have the cap space and feel we need to spend it.


     
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  25. habsfan909

    habsfan909 Registered User

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    On top of that lets hope it's a player that's worth that $$ and not someone we have to overpay because the stars don't want to sign with the Habs.
     
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