Player Discussion Shea Weber Part II

[montreal]

continue from....

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/shea-weber.2451421/page-34

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[Fazkovsky]

Keep Big Shea, don't trade him.

When he is back, and the rest of the team flies around him, they will realize how good he is and how good we are too.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

@Pickles

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Don't you understand that the salary cap is there to protect small market teams like Nashville? Same as restricted free agency. Maybe Nashville couldn't afford to pay him those years that they were struggling. Sure he was underpaid those first few years but then his salary rose from 4.5 mil to 7.5 mil. Maybe they thought he was worth that much.

RFA is not to protect small market teams. RFA contracts are to protect player rights.

It rose to 7.5 because he got it in arbitration. You're coming in without doing your research.


@Le Tricolore

They never lost their pick. They were supposed to but the NHL reversed that.

You're missing some context:

1) The pick was not a recapture penalty. NJD got penalized because they signed Kovalchuk after NHL said to stop long term deals. They applied for reconsideration given Kovalchuk wasn't even with them anymore.

2) The NHL took away NJD's 1st round pick in 2014 which was going to be approx. 11th overall. They re-instated it as 30th overall.

3) NJD still pays recapture fees...this never went away.

New Jersey Devils - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

The only retraction the NHL made was in regards to the loss of a 1st round pick. No other team had this additional penalty.

Teams avoid the recapture penalty by making players go LTIR. NJD did not have this advantage.

 

[Sorinth]

@Pickles you avoided the question, why did Shea Weber owe Nashville something but you didn't owe your first employer anything?

 

[Kriss E]

You should really look into the history of offer sheets and see how many get matched. I can't link it but it's on wiki

Here's a hint: almost all of them

Still.
BB had made it public that he would match any offer sheet made to Dustin Penner back when he was a Duck. Kevin Lowe still signed him to one.
You sign players to a deal you think the other team will have issues matching. If ever they do, they will be in a tough spot. If they don't, you get the player.
There is always a possibility a team matches, and as you said, they vastly do.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

A lot of the contention about his contract came from (rightfully upset) Predators fans and Habs fans who felt aggrieved that certain parties were criticising Subban's character with his contract affair and praising Weber's character in the same breath. Otherwise, it's generally irrelevant. He sought out to get paid and that's what he did - those signing bonuses were no joke, they could've crippled any franchise. Good for him, good for any player that gets paid - they all deserve it. Even Alzner.

I'm only concerned about players' salaries in terms of quality and value vs cap-hit. Weber as a 40-50 pt d-man and great defensive presence is probably worth 7.8m. Weber as a 30-40 pt d-man and great defensive presence is probably not. Weber as a 30-40 pt d-man with good defensive presence is absolutely not worth 7.8m.

How will Weber trend in his mid-30s, before his 'retirement' cap hit portion? Too many are hand-waving that away.

 

[Habitant le colon]

Can't wait to see Weber with this group of players!

 

[Goodbahd]

Weber is built tough like Chara. I could see him being good into his 40’s.

 

[cactusjack]

Can't wait to see Weber with this group of players!

How do you see him fit with the new system? Will he be fast enough, either with foot speed and passing/transition game ? His PP shot will help us for sure.

 

[S Bah]

With the passionate play of the Habs this early in the season, optimism is higher than it's been since 1993 season for this lifelong Habs fan!!!...When Shea Weber is added look for a Habs team capable of beating any team any night. So many leaders and passionate teammates, it's been too many yrs. waiting but worth the wait IMHO!!!...Float like a butterfly, Sting like a Bee said Ali.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Anybody know if Weber is ahead of schedule, behind schedule, or right on schedule with his recovery? I realize they won't rush things but I'd like to see the media ask this question to management.

 

[ottawa]

Here was your post btw

Weber signed a huge offer from Philly because he wanted out and never thought NSH would match. He really forced them into a corner. If you want me, pay me this insane cash. If not, I'm going to Philly.
There is no way a team would sign a player to a deal they think their team would match, it's completely pointless for them to do that.

To which I told you almost every single offer sheet in history has been matched, to which you replied with

Still.
BB had made it public that he would match any offer sheet made to Dustin Penner back when he was a Duck. Kevin Lowe still signed him to one.
You sign players to a deal you think the other team will have issues matching. If ever they do, they will be in a tough spot. If they don't, you get the player.
There is always a possibility a team matches, and as you said, they vastly do.

I honestly don't even get the point you're trying to make anymore...you literally just defined the word 'backtracking' and also went against your original post.

I feel like HF members admitting they're wrong is the equivalent of suicide, so they opt to spin webs instead.

Your main argument was that no team gives offer sheets that they think will be matched, implying Philly helped Weber screw over Nashville for god knows what reason.

 

[Subbanned]

How do you see him fit with the new system? Will he be fast enough, either with foot speed and passing/transition game ? His PP shot will help us for sure.

His puck skills and positioning will always keep him up to pace even if his speed isn't superb. He will be a massive threat from the blueline and bring some legitimacy back to our defense as he oversees our tank

 

[Kriss E]

Here was your post btw



To which I told you almost every single offer sheet in history has been matched, to which you replied with



I honestly don't even get the point you're trying to make anymore...you literally just defined the word 'backtracking' and also went against your original post.

I feel like HF members admitting they're wrong is the equivalent of suicide, so they opt to spin webs instead.

Your main argument was that no team gives offer sheets that they think will be matched, implying Philly helped Weber screw over Nashville for god knows what reason.

Well that is the problem here. Your approach to discussion is ''who's right or wrong''. It's childish.
I mean...wtf?

There is no backtrack, had I said teams do not match offer sheets, and then you showed that they do, then yes, that would have made me wrong.
Now, if you want to say I was wrong that ''Weber never thought NSH would match'' then fine, I have no problem admitting that, if you can show that Weber did think NSH would possibly match.
But you are nitpicking on unimportant details that matter very little when looking at the overall point of a post.

The point was offer sheets are signed by players that want their fair share. Either pay them what others are willing to go to, or let them leave.

But clearly you have no intention on arguing anything here and are playing this childish right or wrong game.

 

[ottawa]

Well that is the problem here. Your approach to discussion is ''who's right or wrong''. It's childish.
I mean...wtf?

There is no backtrack, had I said teams do not match offer sheets, and then you showed that they do, then yes, that would have made me wrong.
Now, if you want to say I was wrong that ''Weber never thought NSH would match'' then fine, I have no problem admitting that, if you can show that Weber did think NSH would possibly match.
But you are nitpicking on unimportant details that matter very little when looking at the overall point of a post.

The point was offer sheets are signed by players that want their fair share. Either pay them what others are willing to go to, or let them leave.

But clearly you have no intention on arguing anything here and are playing this childish right or wrong game.

Poile kept saying he would match any offer sheet coming his way, and he did. Of course Weber knew that, he's not stupid. The team had just lost Suter for nothing.



I'm not playing a right or wrong game. What I'd like is for you to use facts instead of opinions when you're making a statement, is that too much to ask?

 

[Fazkovsky]

I don’t worry about Weber’s offence. He can match subbans numbers but probably not the assists . With petry, we have this hole filled anyway

I just find his physical play and d play has decreased badly in quality

I thought we would get someone elite defensively too

 

[Kriss E]

Poile kept saying he would match any offer sheet coming his way, and he did. Of course Weber knew that, he's not stupid. The team had just lost Suter for nothing.



I'm not playing a right or wrong game. What I'd like is for you to use facts instead of opinions when you're making a statement, is that too much to ask?

This is a discussion board, 99% of the content here is opinion based. If you have a problem with that then I have no idea what you are doing here.

There are three parties involved when signing an offer sheet:
1- The current team
2- The player
3- The new potential team

Now, show me the fact that states the why the new team would sign an offer sheet to a player despite knowing it would be matched.
Why did Philly sign Weber to an offer sheet when Poile made it clear he was going to sign him?

 

[admiralcadillac]

I don’t worry about Weber’s offence. He can match subbans numbers but probably not the assists . With petry, we have this hole filled anyway

I just find his physical play and d play has decreased badly in quality

I thought we would get someone elite defensively too

Statistically he has been

 

[Frank Drebin]

The entire offersheet fiasco falls squarely on Poiles shoulders. He overpaid Rinne the previous November, took Weber to arbitration the previous summer (he was awarded 7M? I believe), ended up losing Suter to UFA, and left Weber exposed to an offersheet.

 

[habs03]

Just my $0.02 on the matter. I think Weber wanted to go to Philly. I recall in his press conference after the Preds matched, he kinda sounded down but he did say that he wouldn't have signed that long term of a deal unless he was okay with staying with the Preds knowing they could match it.

But I mean 100% the deal was made to screw Nashville over, I think Weber got paid 27M within less than 1 year of signing that deal, due to signing bonuses.

I Poile said he would match any deal but the high signing bonuses made it tough and he said he had to go to ownership and it was pretty there call.

Funny thing about all that, Flyers put a no trade clause in that deal, but Preds didn't have to honor it, even tho Webers agent asked them too.

Poile just did the same with Subban, Subban who's no trade would kicked in at start of his UFA years, no longer existed.

IMO nhlpa are dumbass letting teams do that

 

[ottawa]

This is a discussion board, 99% of the content here is opinion based. If you have a problem with that then I have no idea what you are doing here.

There are three parties involved when signing an offer sheet:
1- The current team
2- The player
3- The new potential team

Now, show me the fact that states the why the new team would sign an offer sheet to a player despite knowing it would be matched.
Why did Philly sign Weber to an offer sheet when Poile made it clear he was going to sign him?

I know this is a message board. Opinions are fine as long as they're not made up facts or stupid. Your opinion overlapped both those.

As for your actual post. What the f*** do you mean lol. I'll be honest, I'm confused

- Poile offered Weber a contract he didn't like
- Poile said he would match any offer sheet
- Philly offered Weber a contract
- Weber signed offer sheet
- Poile stayed true to his word and matched it

So what fact did you want me to show you? As go your last question, idk why Philly tried signing him, maybe Holmgrem wanted to call his bluff or he's dumb as a bag of bricks? I really don't know I wasn't in his head at the time.


I'd like to point out all this stemmed this stemmed from you saying Weber cornered and forced the preds into his current contract. As far as I know, Poile acted on free will. So while I enjoy you spinning webs, can we get back to my original question that asked you why you would say he forced Nashville's hand

 

[Kriss E]

So what fact did you want me to show you? As go your last question, idk why Philly tried signing him, maybe Holmgrem wanted to call his bluff or he's dumb as a bag of bricks? I really don't know I wasn't in his head at the time.


I'd like to point out all this stemmed this stemmed from you saying Weber cornered and forced the preds into his current contract. As far as I know, Poile acted on free will. So while I enjoy you spinning webs, can we get back to my original question that asked you why you would say he forced Nashville's hand

Because Poile was cornered. There was no room to negotiate. Either you match this huge offer that Weber negotiated with another team, or you let him go and take the picks.
Not sure what's difficult for you to understand.

And I'm sure Philly negotiated the deal they fully believed Nsh would match...Maybe they were hired by Poile to handle the negotiation for him, genius this Poile! Ya, Holgrem called the bluff, and he made sure to put the odds on his side by signing him to a huge deal he felt he could get away with.


And yes, nobody put a gun to Poile's head...you're right..Great point mate.

 

[ottawa]

Because Poile was cornered. There was no room to negotiate. Either you match this huge offer that Weber negotiated with another team, or you let him go and take the picks.
Not sure what's difficult for you to understand.

And I'm sure Philly negotiated the deal they fully believed Nsh would match...Maybe they were hired by Poile to handle the negotiation for him, genius this Poile! Ya, Holgrem called the bluff, and he made sure to put the odds on his side by signing him to a huge deal he felt he could get away with.


And yes, nobody put a gun to Poile's head...you're right..Great point mate.

So not that we've finally established that Poile did in fact exercise free right and was not forced by Weber to act on the offer sheet, let's move onto the next step.

Would I be correct in assuming you are essentially saying Weber is selfish because he wanted what he thinks he was worth and he was only getting it from Philly so he signed with them? Explain me the logic of how Weber comes off as selfish here. He doesn't owe Nashville anything beyond his contract (which he played out)

Don't you think the onus is on Nashville to offer a market value contract that Weber deems acceptable? All players deserve to get what they're worth, especially in a physically demanding sport like this.

 

[Kriss E]

So not that we've finally established that Poile did in fact exercise free right and was not forced by Weber to act on the offer sheet, let's move onto the next step.

I mean...did you think I was being literal when I said he had ''no choice and was forced''? loll
Come on dude. You're fishing.

Would I be correct in assuming you are essentially saying Weber is selfish because he wanted what he thinks he was worth and he was only getting it from Philly so he signed with them? Explain me the logic of how Weber comes off as selfish here. He doesn't owe Nashville anything beyond his contract (which he played out)

Don't you think the onus is on Nashville to offer a market value contract that Weber deems acceptable? All players deserve to get what they're worth, especially in a physically demanding sport like this.

No, you would be wrong. Weber wanted to cash in and exercised his right to sign an offer sheet. It's part of the rules, so no, I don't think he was selfish.

 

[ottawa]

No, you would be wrong. Weber wanted to cash in and exercised his right to sign an offer sheet. It's part of the rules, so no, I don't think he was selfish.

Took a couple days but I'm glad we cleared that up, your first post stated the complete opposite. It either ridiculously unbiased against Weber or straight trolling.